Creationist shenanigans part 439

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

Muslims have not tried to push religion into the curriculum as sham science in this country, as far as I know. This is purely a response to the improper attempt by some Christians to pervert public-school science education for their own ends.

As long as they only push it on their own, why should this be a problem?

I'm not claiming that Taylor county should make learning about creationism mandatory for all. And if we can acomodate Muslims in their religious practices and beliefs in this country surely we can do the same for Christians. I don't personally buy into either of their beliefs but I see no reason why we can't come to a compromise on the situation that is satisfactory for all concerned.

WTF, it is not the same thing! Teaching Creationism in school exposes All to it. Allowing a group a place to Pray in Schools is limited to those who Pray.

 

[punchkin]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

Muslims have not tried to push religion into the curriculum as sham science in this country, as far as I know. This is purely a response to the improper attempt by some Christians to pervert public-school science education for their own ends.

As long as they only push it on their own, why should this be a problem?

I'm not claiming that Taylor county should make learning about creationism mandatory for all. And if we can acomodate Muslims in their religious practices and beliefs in this country surely we can do the same for Christians. I don't personally buy into either of their beliefs but I see no reason why we can't come to a compromise on the situation that is satisfactory for all concerned.

Obviously they don't just try to push it on their own, hence all the lawsuits and strife. In addition, even if every last person in a school district were to support teaching Christian beliefs in public-school science class, it would very obviously violate the Establishment Clause.

Allowing someone to wash their feet or pray in school does not violate the separation of church and state because the state isn't causing it to happen. However, public schools are publicly funded. This means that all public school curricula cannot teach junk religious science as science.

I get the idea you're just trolling now.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

If a county has a majority who vote to support the teaching of religous beliefs that should be their right to do so. Nor are we talking about a pure democracy here. This is an elected school board, a representative government. I'm not sure why I even have to clarify that issue, and it really seems like a non-sequitor type of argument considering the existing evidence.

I believe a compromise could be worked out where parents could opt their kids out of the class on either creationism or evolution if so desired. If parents want their children to grow up ignorant about valid science that's not my call, or yours.

The funny thing about the Constitution, Mr. Chickie, is that it protects the rights of the minority and the majority does not rule outside the vision of our founding fathers.

The SCOTUS has upheld the establishment clause in that the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose is unconstitutional.

I'm not sure why you bolded my comment about the argument being a non-sequitor because it was referring to Rainsford's comment about "pure Democracy," and doesn't seem to have any relevance to your reply whatsoever.

btw, the Constitution (more specifically the Bill of Rights) doesn't explicitly protect the rights of any minority, it only does so by proxy and only in some cases. The Bill of Rights protects the individual.

If a place like Taylor county is full of overtly religious people who feel they should be teaching creationism to their own children, we should accomodate them. There are ways, as I've mentioned previously, to permit that accomodation without imposing others who may not subscribe to those beliefs. There's no reason we can't keep both sides happy in this case and come to an agreeable compromise.

No, you shouldn't. Let them teach their Hocus Pocus at Church. School is for Education, not Indoctrination.

Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

As a Brit it feels kinda strange that i have to teach you about your own constitution, the point is freedom of religion, that is, no religion is mandatory and all religions or no religion is of equal worth in the eyes of the law.

So people wanting to pray in school is fine, making shcool prayer mandatory is not, you really know that i am sure, you're just playing the us vs them game. Probably because you have no arguments and know it but it could be because you are stupid.

Oh man. Not you and your ignorant, condescending Brit twittery.

You aren't teaching me squat because what you probably don't realize is that some public schools have special areas for Muslim prayers and build specific facilities for foot washing. This, essentially, is a government funding of a specific religious practice and should be an absolute no-no. However, certain people seem to want to give a pass to Muslims while bashing Christians senseless at every opportunity so they ratioanlize why one practice is acceptable while the other is not.

If we're going to accomodate one particular religious practice we better be prepared to accomodate others, or accomodate none at all.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

Muslims have not tried to push religion into the curriculum as sham science in this country, as far as I know. This is purely a response to the improper attempt by some Christians to pervert public-school science education for their own ends.

As long as they only push it on their own, why should this be a problem?

I'm not claiming that Taylor county should make learning about creationism mandatory for all. And if we can acomodate Muslims in their religious practices and beliefs in this country surely we can do the same for Christians. I don't personally buy into either of their beliefs but I see no reason why we can't come to a compromise on the situation that is satisfactory for all concerned.

Well read the fucking constitution, you can't push religion in school, that would be unconstitutional, i know it's just a god damn piece of paper but it's a god damn piece of paper worth following.

In school we teach so that the kids gain the knowledge according to the principle of "to the best of our current knowledge" and that is it, religious teaching and indoctrination of children can be done at home.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

If a county has a majority who vote to support the teaching of religous beliefs that should be their right to do so. Nor are we talking about a pure democracy here. This is an elected school board, a representative government. I'm not sure why I even have to clarify that issue, and it really seems like a non-sequitor type of argument considering the existing evidence.

I believe a compromise could be worked out where parents could opt their kids out of the class on either creationism or evolution if so desired. If parents want their children to grow up ignorant about valid science that's not my call, or yours.

The funny thing about the Constitution, Mr. Chickie, is that it protects the rights of the minority and the majority does not rule outside the vision of our founding fathers.

The SCOTUS has upheld the establishment clause in that the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose is unconstitutional.

I'm not sure why you bolded my comment about the argument being a non-sequitor because it was referring to Rainsford's comment about "pure Democracy," and doesn't seem to have any relevance to your reply whatsoever.

btw, the Constitution (more specifically the Bill of Rights) doesn't explicitly protect the rights of any minority, it only does so by proxy and only in some cases. The Bill of Rights protects the individual.

If a place like Taylor county is full of overtly religious people who feel they should be teaching creationism to their own children, we should accomodate them. There are ways, as I've mentioned previously, to permit that accomodation without imposing others who may not subscribe to those beliefs. There's no reason we can't keep both sides happy in this case and come to an agreeable compromise.

No, you shouldn't. Let them teach their Hocus Pocus at Church. School is for Education, not Indoctrination.

Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

As a Brit it feels kinda strange that i have to teach you about your own constitution, the point is freedom of religion, that is, no religion is mandatory and all religions or no religion is of equal worth in the eyes of the law.

So people wanting to pray in school is fine, making shcool prayer mandatory is not, you really know that i am sure, you're just playing the us vs them game. Probably because you have no arguments and know it but it could be because you are stupid.

Oh man. Not you and your ignorant, condescending Brit twittery.

You aren't teaching me squat because what you probably don't realize is that some public schools have special areas for Muslim prayers and build specific facilities for foot washing. This, essentially, is a government funding of a specific religious practice and should be an absolute no-no. However, certain people seem to want to give a pass to Muslims while bashing Christians senseless at every opportunity so they ratioanlize why one practice is acceptable while the other is not.

If we're going to accomodate one particular religious practice we better be prepared to accomodate others, or accomodate none at all.

Well i may be stupid but you are ignorant, apparently you didn't even read what i said, there is no muslim religion being taught in school, there will be no christian religion being taught either and that is the point. TEACHING religion during school hours is a bit different from letting people pray in school, but you don't get that because you don't WANT to get that, you are an ignorant little fuck and that is all you are.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

Muslims have not tried to push religion into the curriculum as sham science in this country, as far as I know. This is purely a response to the improper attempt by some Christians to pervert public-school science education for their own ends.

As long as they only push it on their own, why should this be a problem?

I'm not claiming that Taylor county should make learning about creationism mandatory for all. And if we can acomodate Muslims in their religious practices and beliefs in this country surely we can do the same for Christians. I don't personally buy into either of their beliefs but I see no reason why we can't come to a compromise on the situation that is satisfactory for all concerned.

WTF, it is not the same thing! Teaching Creationism in school exposes All to it. Allowing a group a place to Pray in Schools is limited to those who Pray.

I've repeated this a number of times already, but you and others continue to overlook it. So I'll repeat it once again.

Am I suggesting that we make creationism mandatory in any schools? Absolutely NOT and I despise the thought of forcing anyone to be subjected to some hocus pocus religious theory. I am suggesting that in areas like Taylor county, where there is a preponderance of religious people, creationism can be offered as an option, along with evolution, and parents can decide which one they want for their children. It's a fair compromise and can keep both sides happy.

Have I made myself clear enough on thaqt issue yet?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

Muslims have not tried to push religion into the curriculum as sham science in this country, as far as I know. This is purely a response to the improper attempt by some Christians to pervert public-school science education for their own ends.

As long as they only push it on their own, why should this be a problem?

I'm not claiming that Taylor county should make learning about creationism mandatory for all. And if we can acomodate Muslims in their religious practices and beliefs in this country surely we can do the same for Christians. I don't personally buy into either of their beliefs but I see no reason why we can't come to a compromise on the situation that is satisfactory for all concerned.

Well read the fucking constitution, you can't push religion in school, that would be unconstitutional, i know it's just a god damn piece of paper but it's a god damn piece of paper worth following.

In school we teach so that the kids gain the knowledge according to the principle of "to the best of our current knowledge" and that is it, religious teaching and indoctrination of children can be done at home.

Who is suggesting that religion would be "pushed?" I am not, have not, and did not and I'm completely against anything of the sort.

So try reading what I wrote instead of imagining I'm saying something else. I'm suggesting a workable compromise.

 

[punchkin]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
... what you probably don't realize is that some public schools have special areas for Muslim prayers and build specific facilities for foot washing. This, essentially, is a government funding of a specific religious practice and should be an absolute no-no. However, certain people seem to want to give a pass to Muslims while bashing Christians senseless at every opportunity so they ratioanlize why one practice is acceptable while the other is not.

If we're going to accomodate one particular religious practice we better be prepared to accomodate others, or accomodate none at all.

Okay, I read up on it a bit. This is a good start:
http://www.washingtontimes.com.../NATION/108290057/1002

I agree with you that this seems like preferential treatment. However, it probably doesn't violate the Establishment Clause because it was instituted for safety reasons.

Slightly off topic, but what do you think of the ham sandwich hate crime?

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Have I made myself clear enough on thaqt issue yet?

You've made it clear that you have no respect for the Establishment Clause & that you think that unconstitutional tyranny of the majority is acceptable at the local level.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

Muslims have not tried to push religion into the curriculum as sham science in this country, as far as I know. This is purely a response to the improper attempt by some Christians to pervert public-school science education for their own ends.

As long as they only push it on their own, why should this be a problem?

I'm not claiming that Taylor county should make learning about creationism mandatory for all. And if we can acomodate Muslims in their religious practices and beliefs in this country surely we can do the same for Christians. I don't personally buy into either of their beliefs but I see no reason why we can't come to a compromise on the situation that is satisfactory for all concerned.

WTF, it is not the same thing! Teaching Creationism in school exposes All to it. Allowing a group a place to Pray in Schools is limited to those who Pray.

I've repeated this a number of times already, but you and others continue to overlook it. So I'll repeat it once again.

Am I suggesting that we make creationism mandatory in any schools? Absolutely NOT and I despise the thought of forcing anyone to be subjected to some hocus pocus religious theory. I am suggesting that in areas like Taylor county, where there is a preponderance of religious people, creationism can be offered as an option, along with evolution, and parents can decide which one they want for their children. It's a fair compromise and can keep both sides happy.

Have I made myself clear enough on thaqt issue yet?

There is a predesponerance, that is excellent, does that allow mob rule instead of the state setting the rules?

If nothing else it would mean teaching a creation story based on christianity and how you can't get that that is unconstitutional is beyond me.

To me this is clear cut, you don't teach religion in shcool, period.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

Muslims have not tried to push religion into the curriculum as sham science in this country, as far as I know. This is purely a response to the improper attempt by some Christians to pervert public-school science education for their own ends.

As long as they only push it on their own, why should this be a problem?

I'm not claiming that Taylor county should make learning about creationism mandatory for all. And if we can acomodate Muslims in their religious practices and beliefs in this country surely we can do the same for Christians. I don't personally buy into either of their beliefs but I see no reason why we can't come to a compromise on the situation that is satisfactory for all concerned.

Well read the fucking constitution, you can't push religion in school, that would be unconstitutional, i know it's just a god damn piece of paper but it's a god damn piece of paper worth following.

In school we teach so that the kids gain the knowledge according to the principle of "to the best of our current knowledge" and that is it, religious teaching and indoctrination of children can be done at home.

Who is suggesting that religion would be "pushed?" I am not, have not, and did not and I'm completely against anything of the sort.

So try reading what I wrote instead of imagining I'm saying something else. I'm suggesting a workable compromise.

"as long as they only push it on their own" you wrote that.

Indoctrination should be done elsewhere and in school no religion should be taught ever.

I can't believe you don't get this.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

Muslims have not tried to push religion into the curriculum as sham science in this country, as far as I know. This is purely a response to the improper attempt by some Christians to pervert public-school science education for their own ends.

As long as they only push it on their own, why should this be a problem?

I'm not claiming that Taylor county should make learning about creationism mandatory for all. And if we can acomodate Muslims in their religious practices and beliefs in this country surely we can do the same for Christians. I don't personally buy into either of their beliefs but I see no reason why we can't come to a compromise on the situation that is satisfactory for all concerned.

WTF, it is not the same thing! Teaching Creationism in school exposes All to it. Allowing a group a place to Pray in Schools is limited to those who Pray.

I've repeated this a number of times already, but you and others continue to overlook it. So I'll repeat it once again.

Am I suggesting that we make creationism mandatory in any schools? Absolutely NOT and I despise the thought of forcing anyone to be subjected to some hocus pocus religious theory. I am suggesting that in areas like Taylor county, where there is a preponderance of religious people, creationism can be offered as an option, along with evolution, and parents can decide which one they want for their children. It's a fair compromise and can keep both sides happy.

Have I made myself clear enough on thaqt issue yet?

You are condoning it by allowing that County impose it.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

If a county has a majority who vote to support the teaching of religous beliefs that should be their right to do so. Nor are we talking about a pure democracy here. This is an elected school board, a representative government. I'm not sure why I even have to clarify that issue, and it really seems like a non-sequitor type of argument considering the existing evidence.

I believe a compromise could be worked out where parents could opt their kids out of the class on either creationism or evolution if so desired. If parents want their children to grow up ignorant about valid science that's not my call, or yours.

The funny thing about the Constitution, Mr. Chickie, is that it protects the rights of the minority and the majority does not rule outside the vision of our founding fathers.

The SCOTUS has upheld the establishment clause in that the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose is unconstitutional.

I'm not sure why you bolded my comment about the argument being a non-sequitor because it was referring to Rainsford's comment about "pure Democracy," and doesn't seem to have any relevance to your reply whatsoever.

btw, the Constitution (more specifically the Bill of Rights) doesn't explicitly protect the rights of any minority, it only does so by proxy and only in some cases. The Bill of Rights protects the individual.

If a place like Taylor county is full of overtly religious people who feel they should be teaching creationism to their own children, we should accomodate them. There are ways, as I've mentioned previously, to permit that accomodation without imposing others who may not subscribe to those beliefs. There's no reason we can't keep both sides happy in this case and come to an agreeable compromise.

No, you shouldn't. Let them teach their Hocus Pocus at Church. School is for Education, not Indoctrination.

Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

As a Brit it feels kinda strange that i have to teach you about your own constitution, the point is freedom of religion, that is, no religion is mandatory and all religions or no religion is of equal worth in the eyes of the law.

So people wanting to pray in school is fine, making shcool prayer mandatory is not, you really know that i am sure, you're just playing the us vs them game. Probably because you have no arguments and know it but it could be because you are stupid.

Oh man. Not you and your ignorant, condescending Brit twittery.

You aren't teaching me squat because what you probably don't realize is that some public schools have special areas for Muslim prayers and build specific facilities for foot washing. This, essentially, is a government funding of a specific religious practice and should be an absolute no-no. However, certain people seem to want to give a pass to Muslims while bashing Christians senseless at every opportunity so they ratioanlize why one practice is acceptable while the other is not.

If we're going to accomodate one particular religious practice we better be prepared to accomodate others, or accomodate none at all.

Well i may be stupid but you are ignorant, apparently you didn't even read what i said, there is no muslim religion being taught in school, there will be no christian religion being taught either and that is the point. TEACHING religion during school hours is a bit different from letting people pray in school, but you don't get that because you don't WANT to get that, you are an ignorant little fuck and that is all you are.

fyi, there's a fundamental difference between stupid and ignorant. Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.

The Constitution/Bill of Rights does not address the "teaching" of religion, it adresses the establishment of a government sanctioned religion. The issue goes far beyond just what is being taught and the "teaching" of religion is not any specific kind of qualifier. In fact, plenty of public schools teach religion. I took a comparitive religion course myself back in high school.

It boils down to permitting religious practices and beliefs in schools and creationism and Muslim prayer both fall under that umbrella. And just like nobody is forcing anone to pray alongside Muslims or wash their feet, nobody should be forcing anyone to subscribe to creationist theory. But that doesn't mean we can't accomodate both.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Have I made myself clear enough on thaqt issue yet?

You've made it clear that you have no respect for the Establishment Clause & that you think that unconstitutional tyranny of the majority is acceptable at the local level.

Would you see no problem in places like Dearborn, Michigan, with its preponderance of Muslims, having prayer rooms and footwashing basins in public schools? Obviously the tyranical Muslim majority has influenced policy at the local level, eh?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It should be done right and ever kid that has a special interpretation gets his own teacher, like Hindus get 42 teachers for every story and christians get ... well that will have to be a shitload of teachers just for them, then we have the muslims, the pagans, and a few jokesters who pretend to believe in other strange religions, they need their own class too.

And then we have the people who want to learn shit that is useful in school, they get a science professor who teaches them about evolution.

It's that or we just skip religion and teach all kids, in class, what is to the best of our knowledge and if the parents want their kids to know the creationist shit, they a lot of time to do that.

 

[jackschmittusa]

TastesLikeChicken

And if the majority of a local population thinks that the Holocaust was a fabrication, should they teach that in history class?

If the majority are vegans, should meat be a forbidden subject in nutrition or home ecc classes? Never allowed on the property?

How about abstinence only, wait till you're married, missionary position, sex only for procreation? Skip the safe sex, STDs, how to handle emerging sexual feelings.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

Muslims have not tried to push religion into the curriculum as sham science in this country, as far as I know. This is purely a response to the improper attempt by some Christians to pervert public-school science education for their own ends.

As long as they only push it on their own, why should this be a problem?

I'm not claiming that Taylor county should make learning about creationism mandatory for all. And if we can acomodate Muslims in their religious practices and beliefs in this country surely we can do the same for Christians. I don't personally buy into either of their beliefs but I see no reason why we can't come to a compromise on the situation that is satisfactory for all concerned.

WTF, it is not the same thing! Teaching Creationism in school exposes All to it. Allowing a group a place to Pray in Schools is limited to those who Pray.

I've repeated this a number of times already, but you and others continue to overlook it. So I'll repeat it once again.

Am I suggesting that we make creationism mandatory in any schools? Absolutely NOT and I despise the thought of forcing anyone to be subjected to some hocus pocus religious theory. I am suggesting that in areas like Taylor county, where there is a preponderance of religious people, creationism can be offered as an option, along with evolution, and parents can decide which one they want for their children. It's a fair compromise and can keep both sides happy.

Have I made myself clear enough on thaqt issue yet?

You are condoning it by allowing that County impose it.

I am not suggesting it be imposed on anyone. I recommend it be made available for those who so choose. If people want to subscribe to stupid beliefs, that's their right and who are we to deny them?

 

[punchkin]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Have I made myself clear enough on thaqt issue yet?

You've made it clear that you have no respect for the Establishment Clause & that you think that unconstitutional tyranny of the majority is acceptable at the local level.

Would you see no problem in places like Dearborn, Michigan, with its preponderance of Muslims, having prayer rooms and footwashing basins in public schools? Obviously the tyranical Muslim majority has influenced policy at the local level, eh?

The foot basins in Dearborn I read about are in the University of Michigan at Dearborn, where there is not a preponderance (around 10% I believe). There is a secular purpose for them (safety). The basins are an accommodation. A safety-based accommodation at a university is far different from using state money to teach religion in science class to impressionable youngsters.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

If a county has a majority who vote to support the teaching of religous beliefs that should be their right to do so. Nor are we talking about a pure democracy here. This is an elected school board, a representative government. I'm not sure why I even have to clarify that issue, and it really seems like a non-sequitor type of argument considering the existing evidence.

I believe a compromise could be worked out where parents could opt their kids out of the class on either creationism or evolution if so desired. If parents want their children to grow up ignorant about valid science that's not my call, or yours.

The funny thing about the Constitution, Mr. Chickie, is that it protects the rights of the minority and the majority does not rule outside the vision of our founding fathers.

The SCOTUS has upheld the establishment clause in that the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose is unconstitutional.

I'm not sure why you bolded my comment about the argument being a non-sequitor because it was referring to Rainsford's comment about "pure Democracy," and doesn't seem to have any relevance to your reply whatsoever.

btw, the Constitution (more specifically the Bill of Rights) doesn't explicitly protect the rights of any minority, it only does so by proxy and only in some cases. The Bill of Rights protects the individual.

If a place like Taylor county is full of overtly religious people who feel they should be teaching creationism to their own children, we should accomodate them. There are ways, as I've mentioned previously, to permit that accomodation without imposing others who may not subscribe to those beliefs. There's no reason we can't keep both sides happy in this case and come to an agreeable compromise.

No, you shouldn't. Let them teach their Hocus Pocus at Church. School is for Education, not Indoctrination.

Then you would also agree that Muslim prayer should not be accomodated at public schools and we should not be installing foot washing basins?

I'm asking because I get the impression this is more about some people's distaste for Christians, and their desire to stick it to them, and less to do with religion in general.

As a Brit it feels kinda strange that i have to teach you about your own constitution, the point is freedom of religion, that is, no religion is mandatory and all religions or no religion is of equal worth in the eyes of the law.

So people wanting to pray in school is fine, making shcool prayer mandatory is not, you really know that i am sure, you're just playing the us vs them game. Probably because you have no arguments and know it but it could be because you are stupid.

Oh man. Not you and your ignorant, condescending Brit twittery.

You aren't teaching me squat because what you probably don't realize is that some public schools have special areas for Muslim prayers and build specific facilities for foot washing. This, essentially, is a government funding of a specific religious practice and should be an absolute no-no. However, certain people seem to want to give a pass to Muslims while bashing Christians senseless at every opportunity so they ratioanlize why one practice is acceptable while the other is not.

If we're going to accomodate one particular religious practice we better be prepared to accomodate others, or accomodate none at all.

Well i may be stupid but you are ignorant, apparently you didn't even read what i said, there is no muslim religion being taught in school, there will be no christian religion being taught either and that is the point. TEACHING religion during school hours is a bit different from letting people pray in school, but you don't get that because you don't WANT to get that, you are an ignorant little fuck and that is all you are.

fyi, there's a fundamental difference between stupid and ignorant. Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.

The Constitution/Bill of Rights does not address the "teaching" of religion, it adresses the establishment of a government sanctioned religion. The issue goes far beyond just what is being taught and the "teaching" of religion is not any specific kind of qualifier. In fact, plenty of public schools teach religion. I took a comparitive religion course myself back in high school.

It boils down to permitting religious practices and beliefs in schools and creationism and Muslim prayer both fall under that umbrella. And just like nobody is forcing anone to pray alongside Muslims or wash their feet, nobody should be forcing anyone to subscribe to creationist theory. But that doesn't mean we can't accomodate both.

I said that the way i did because i'm an old dog and i don't learn new tricks, i have my mind set on this.

It doesn't boil down to religious pracitces at all, NO ONE IS TAUGHT RELIGIOUS PRACTICES, how FUCKING hard is it to get that? In school, what is taught is devoid of religious influence, it does not stop people from practicing their religion though, that would be as unconstitutional as it would be to teach religion in mandatory schools.

There is no problem with groups assembling in prayer or to discuss creationism, it's a-ok, anything less would be discriminatory and by definition that wouldn't fly, but when it comes to what is taught, that is a different story.

I urge you to think about this, on one hand we have freedom of religion, which is met, on the other we have what is being taught and you do not want freedom of religion to apply there, that is just daft, isn't it?

Think about it.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
TastesLikeChicken

And if the majority of a local population thinks that the Holocaust was a fabrication, should they teach that in history class?

If the majority are vegans, should meat be a forbidden subject in nutrition or home ecc classes? Never allowed on the property?

How about abstinence only, wait till you're married, missionary position, sex only for procreation? Skip the safe sex, STDs, how to handle emerging sexual feelings.

First of all, you're conflating history with religion and creating a straw man in the process.

Second of all, I believe some schools already accomodate vegans, can provide Kosher and Halal meals when required.

And to repeat myself once again, I am NOT suggesting that anything be imposed on those who don't desire to be subjected to it. Why the fuck are you folks trying to turn this into some sort of absolutist claptrap when I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. What is the major malfunction in comprehension here?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Have I made myself clear enough on thaqt issue yet?

You've made it clear that you have no respect for the Establishment Clause & that you think that unconstitutional tyranny of the majority is acceptable at the local level.

Would you see no problem in places like Dearborn, Michigan, with its preponderance of Muslims, having prayer rooms and footwashing basins in public schools? Obviously the tyranical Muslim majority has influenced policy at the local level, eh?

WOW, you really are beyond idiocy.

You REALLY don't get the difference between allowing religious practice and teaching religion?

Really?

 

[punchkin]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
TastesLikeChicken

And if the majority of a local population thinks that the Holocaust was a fabrication, should they teach that in history class?

If the majority are vegans, should meat be a forbidden subject in nutrition or home ecc classes? Never allowed on the property?

How about abstinence only, wait till you're married, missionary position, sex only for procreation? Skip the safe sex, STDs, how to handle emerging sexual feelings.

First of all, you're conflating history with religion and creating a straw man in the process.

Second of all, I believe some schools already accomodate vegans, can provide Kosher and Halal meals when required.

And to repeat myself once again, I am NOT suggesting that anything be imposed on those who don't desire to be subjected to it. Why the fuck are you folks trying to turn this into some sort of absolutist claptrap when I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. What is the major malfunction in comprehension here?

One of the things you're apparently advocating is that religion be allowed to be taught as science, which is unconstitutional. End of story.

It's a mite ridiculous to say that the parents who don't like it can let their children stay home, instead of getting their public school education that you would allow to be riddled with religious crap.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

That bit about vegans is over the top stupid, they do not teach vegan ideology, do they? The demand is that they teach the christian version of creation, now find something else they TEACH based on ideology or religion and then come back and complain about it, that would at least make sense.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
I said that the way i did because i'm an old dog and i don't learn new tricks, i have my mind set on this.

It doesn't boil down to religious pracitces at all, NO ONE IS TAUGHT RELIGIOUS PRACTICES, how FUCKING hard is it to get that? In school, what is taught is devoid of religious influence, it does not stop people from practicing their religion though, that would be as unconstitutional as it would be to teach religion in mandatory schools.

There is no problem with groups assembling in prayer or to discuss creationism, it's a-ok, anything less would be discriminatory and by definition that wouldn't fly, but when it comes to what is taught, that is a different story.

I urge you to think about this, on one hand we have freedom of religion, which is met, on the other we have what is being taught and you do not want freedom of religion to apply there, that is just daft, isn't it?

Think about it.

I am suggeting that in places like Taylor county we can maintain freedom of religion, refrain from any sort of religious indoctrination of those who don't want to be indoctrinated, yet still accomodate those who are of the wacky belief that evolution somehow imposes on their religion.

I am suggesting a way to defuse this situation and make it agreeable for all sides, yet people still want to argue on this. It seems almost ironic that their argument is based on imposing a religious belief when in essence what they are doing is being imposing themselves.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
TastesLikeChicken

And if the majority of a local population thinks that the Holocaust was a fabrication, should they teach that in history class?

If the majority are vegans, should meat be a forbidden subject in nutrition or home ecc classes? Never allowed on the property?

How about abstinence only, wait till you're married, missionary position, sex only for procreation? Skip the safe sex, STDs, how to handle emerging sexual feelings.

First of all, you're conflating history with religion and creating a straw man in the process.

Second of all, I believe some schools already accomodate vegans, can provide Kosher and Halal meals when required.

And to repeat myself once again, I am NOT suggesting that anything be imposed on those who don't desire to be subjected to it. Why the fuck are you folks trying to turn this into some sort of absolutist claptrap when I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. What is the major malfunction in comprehension here?

One of the things you're apparently advocating is that religion be allowed to be taught as science, which is unconstitutional. End of story.

It's a mite ridiculous to say that the parents who don't like it can let their children stay home, instead of getting their public school education that you would allow to be riddled with religious crap.

Nope. I'm suggesting that it could be taught as religious theory for those who desire to learn it. It doesn't have to be categorized as "science" just as people can claim that footwashing basins are really there for the purpose of "safety." :wink, wink;