creationism/intelligent design is inconsistant with the definition of God

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Onceler

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
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??

I didn't say everything was according to God's plan -- I was citing a hypothetical in which a person is told everything is according to God's plan and how silly and credulous such a faith is.

Sorry if it seemed personal or harsh. I just got a big problem with people that say it is God's Will. Is it God's will that someone robbed the banks and just happened to blast some people who got in the way or some nutjob killed elementary school children? No it wasn't. God is long suffering so that all might come to repentance.
The people who say that it was God's will are the one's I have the problem with, them and the nutjobs.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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Sorry if it seemed personal or harsh. I just got a big problem with people that say it is God's Will. Is it God's will that someone robbed the banks and just happened to blast some people who got in the way or some nutjob killed elementary school children? No it wasn't. God is long suffering so that all might come to repentance.
The people who say that it was God's will are the one's I have the problem with, them and the nutjobs.

Well, I am in agreement, hence the post I made about it. How about people choosing to do stupid stuff -- saying it's God's will is essentially blaming Him for it...which is just equally as asinine.

I also avoid the other extreme people go to by saying that everything good is because of God's direct "blessing" or intervention. Some people just work hard and earn the success they have -- it has nothing to do with God sometimes.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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Oh, I assure you that your god doesn't not exist any more than any of the others that you also think don't exist.

I have a serious question for you:

If you're so convinced this "god" doesn't exist, then why do people of your ilk go out of their way to publish books and make speeches denouncing said "god"?

I don't see anyone writing books entitled: "Why Unicorns aren't great".... or "The Santa Delusion" I mean, seriously... you've kept God out of schools -- the only way most people learn about God is via their Church and/or parenting, etc. Do you wish to ban religious teaching as well, or what parents can teach their kids?

Is it really scientific to go around trying to disprove something that doesn't have any proof to support its existence to being with? For instance, how silly would it be for me to write and publish books about the non-existence of ghosts, or get into heated debates on social forums about why I don't think they exists. I don't believe they're real, so I don't concern myself with it.

Time and time again, people like yourself go on and on about how God has just about as much evidence for his existence as the FSM, yet, you can't stop talking and writing about him.

I don't know about you, but I would look just as foolish arguing about the FSM as you would about God.
 

Onceler

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
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I am all for leaving it up to the parents to decide. Very fortunate for me I was raised by Christians who did never push their beliefs on me in fact I didn't even know that they believed until I was in college up until then I thought that they were atheist, they let me figure it out for myself and I am a much better person for it.
 
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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If you're so convinced this "god" doesn't exist, then why do people of your ilk go out of their way to publish books and make speeches denouncing said "god"?

We've had this discussion at least once before, and probably more than that, so I'm not sure what the point is in going over it again. But I'll summarize:

1. Most atheists don't publish books or make speeches. They just want to be left alone.

2. Whether something exists or not has nothing to do with whether or not people talk about it. Millions of people talk about Star Trek and Harry Potter and Greek mythology and Romeo and Juliet and John Galt and a thousand other things that never existed. It's simply a non-issue.

3. People who don't believe in mythology are forced to deal with it anyway because it is shoved in our faces constantly. Every winter, it's two months of Christmas this and Christmas that; a pope dies and it's at the top of every news broadcast for weeks; preachers and similar are all over the media; and even politicans fall over each other to have their gods "bless America". It's even written on our money now.

People don't write books like "Why Unicorns aren't great" because we don't have a society where a huge chunk of the population believes in unicorns and thinks everyone else should too. We talk about your god because you guys won't stop talking about it, and we can't avoid it.
 
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JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
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I have a serious question for you:

If you're so convinced this "god" doesn't exist, then why do people of your ilk go out of their way to publish books and make speeches denouncing said "god"?

I don't see anyone writing books entitled: "Why Unicorns aren't great".... or "The Santa Delusion" I mean, seriously... you've kept God out of schools -- the only way most people learn about God is via their Church and/or parenting, etc. Do you wish to ban religious teaching as well, or what parents can teach their kids?

Is it really scientific to go around trying to disprove something that doesn't have any proof to support its existence to being with? For instance, how silly would it be for me to write and publish books about the non-existence of ghosts, or get into heated debates on social forums about why I don't think they exists. I don't believe they're real, so I don't concern myself with it.

Time and time again, people like yourself go on and on about how God has just about as much evidence for his existence as the FSM, yet, you can't stop talking and writing about him.

I don't know about you, but I would look just as foolish arguing about the FSM as you would about God.

The answer to your questing is amazingly obvious. If there were millions of people trying to push their belief of unicorns on everyone else, fighting wars over their version of unicorns, trying to deny modern science because of what they believed a unicorn said 2000 years ago, etc... there would be plenty of people fighting against that.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
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We've had this discussion at least once before, and probably more than that, so I'm not sure what the point is in going over it again. But I'll summarize:

1. Most atheists don't publish books or make speeches. They just want to be left alone.

2. Whether something exists or not has nothing to do with whether or not people talk about it. Millions of people talk about Star Trek and Harry Potter and Greek mythology and Romeo and Juliet and John Galt and a thousand other things that never existed. It's simply a non-issue.

3. People who don't believe in mythology are forced to deal with it anyway because it is shoved in our faces constantly. Every winter, it's two months of Christmas this and Christmas that; a pope dies and it's at the top of every news broadcast for weeks; preachers and similar are all over the media; and even politicans fall over each other to have their gods "bless America". It's even written on our money now.

People don't write books like "Why Unicorns aren't great" because we don't have a society where a huge chunk of the population believes in unicorns and thinks everyone else should too. We talk about your god because you guys won't stop talking about it, and we can't avoid it.

Exactly.
 

Harabec

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2005
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I wonder when someone will finally print a Special Edition of the bible, with the word "Unicorn" replacing "god" each time it is written.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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We've had this discussion at least once before, and probably more than that, so I'm not sure what the point is in going over it again. But I'll summarize:

Eh.. probably.

1. Most atheists don't publish books or make speeches. They just want to be left alone.

True, most don't. If they don't want to be bothered, they can simply keep flipping the channel, refuse to come to the door and/or dismiss those trying to speak with them. We can't stop people from exercising their rights to speak about what they believe no matter how much we "want to be left alone".

FWIW, non-believers have every right, and I support it, to criticize people like myself as well. I don't think they should stop, nor would I advocate such a thing.

You came out of your way to post a smart remark in this thread, so who's engaging who?

There are no victims, here.

2. Whether something exists or not has nothing to do with whether or not people talk about it. Millions of people talk about Star Trek and Harry Potter and Greek mythology and Romeo and Juliet and John Galt and a thousand other things that never existed. It's simply a non-issue.

Not talking about it isn't what I am saying -- its the "trying to disprove" it part. No one that I know of is trying to disprove Star Trek and Harry Potter, nor Greek mythology, etc, but you have folks trying to disprove what they call a "negative".


3. People who don't believe in mythology are forced to deal with it anyway because it is shoved in our faces constantly. Every winter, it's two months of Christmas this and Christmas that; a pope dies and it's at the top of every news broadcast for weeks; preachers and similar are all over the media; and even politicans fall over each other to have their gods "bless America". It's even written on our money now.

Now this we can agree on to some extent. I, personally, don't care for nor celebrate Christmas for a number of reasons, nor do I think any religious figure should be anywhere near political office, IMO. So in this instance they ARE forcing their beliefs on others.

But the fact is, many Atheists help their cause by celebrating Christmas for traditional reasons and this, IMO, contributes. If you don't like what a store is selling, don't buy it... don't watch it. It's highly ironic how folks complain about this while doing massive Christmas shopping and watching these media coverages of said pope news.


People don't write books like "Why Unicorns aren't great" because we don't have a society where a huge chunk of the population believes in unicorns and thinks everyone else should too. We talk about your god because you guys won't stop talking about it, and we can't avoid it.

I think my point is that it won't really change a thing. One thing I know about Christians is that they traditionally stand up and get louder when they feel "persecuted".. so to speak. So writing books and ridiculing their God and beliefs wouldn't improve anything -- they'll just think they have to fight this sort of persecution and move their religion underground if need be. History has show us that frontal attacks are ineffective.

Ask yourself - how has religious attacks on non-believers worked on you? From what I can tell, they haven't done much to change you -- I think it only made you stronger, Charles.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
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You're wrong. Most atheists were probably religious at some point. We were swayed by rational arguments and actual proof. You're right that some religious people will never change their views no matter how many times they are given actual facts that prove they are wrong. But I think a lot of people are smart enough to accept the truth if they step back and really think about it. It's a fight worth fighting.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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You're wrong. Most atheists were probably religious at some point. We were swayed by rational arguments and actual proof. You're right that some religious people will never change their views no matter how many times they are given actual facts that prove they are wrong. But I think a lot of people are smart enough to accept the truth if they step back and really think about it. It's a fight worth fighting.

For the sake of that post, it didn't matter how they came to be Atheists...nor did I comment on how they came to be Atheists. Supporting a religious holiday is supporting a religious holiday. You don't need to qualify it.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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True, most don't. If they don't want to be bothered, they can simply keep flipping the channel, refuse to come to the door and/or dismiss those trying to speak with them. We can't stop people from exercising their rights to speak about what they believe no matter how much we "want to be left alone".

I don't believe I said anything about stopping people from exercising their rights. You asked why "people of [my] ilk go out of their way to publish books and make speeches denouncing said 'god'", and I was just saying that the vast majority of them do not.

You came out of your way to post a smart remark in this thread, so who's engaging who?

This is a public discussion board, so, not really comparable.

Not talking about it isn't what I am saying -- its the "trying to disprove" it part. No one that I know of is trying to disprove Star Trek and Harry Potter, nor Greek mythology, etc, but you have folks trying to disprove what they call a "negative".

Atheists don't try to "disprove" the existence of gods. They may try to lay out the reasons why there's no reason to believe in them. Sorry, but I don't see what your point is here. Millions of people believe in this stuff, so people talk about it. That doesn't automatically lend credence to it.

But the fact is, many Atheists help their cause by celebrating Christmas for traditional reasons and this, IMO, contributes.

I personally don't have a big problem with Christmas, because it's become very much a cultural thing, and that's what atheists who celebrate Christmas are taking part in.

Actually, I don't have a big problem with the religious aspects either, for those who like it. I only point out that it's all over the place because you keep asking why non-believers discuss it. And the answer to that is.. because it's all over the place.

If you don't like what a store is selling, don't buy it... don't watch it. It's highly ironic how folks complain about this while doing massive Christmas shopping and watching these media coverages of said pope news.

Sure, Rob, I'll just go to the stores that don't have Christmas stuff plastered all over their retail storefronts and websites. I think there's one or three in the Jewish areas of NYC.

Anyway, I still don't see what this has to do with anything.

Ask yourself - how has religious attacks on non-believers worked on you? From what I can tell, they haven't done much to change you -- I think it only made you stronger, Charles.

I used to be religious, largely because of lack of exposure to alternative viewpoints. So, yes, they do matter.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
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For the sake of that post, it didn't matter how they came to be Atheists...nor did I comment on how they came to be Atheists. Supporting a religious holiday is supporting a religious holiday. You don't need to qualify it.

I was responding to the part of your post where you said books like the god delusion won't improve anything. You're wrong.
 

Onceler

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
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Circumcision should be outlawed and should not be left up to the parents to decide.
 

Onceler

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
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God does not know everything He knows all possibilities at all times. Because of free will God does not know what possibility you will choose but He knows all possibilities and all possibilities that could change the universe (however small) hinging upon your choice of the moment.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
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Can a deity create a rock so heavy that even the deity itself cannot lift it? If so, then the rock is now unliftable, limiting the deity's power. But if not, then the deity is still not omnipotent because it cannot create that rock.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
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God does not know everything He knows all possibilities at all times. Because of free will God does not know what possibility you will choose but He knows all possibilities and all possibilities that could change the universe (however small) hinging upon your choice of the moment.

Sounds like a worthless god.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Can a deity create a rock so heavy that even the deity itself cannot lift it? If so, then the rock is now unliftable, limiting the deity's power. But if not, then the deity is still not omnipotent because it cannot create that rock.

Normally i'd say the question is logically incoherent and therefore worthless but since some people in this thread believe that God is not bound by logic i suppose it's a completely fair question.

It also means that the answer can be "9cb8flk7". Remove logic and nothing has to make any sense what so ever.
 

Vaux

Senior member
May 24, 2013
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I think that all religions are wrong.

I can't say with 100% certainty that there is no deity, but if there exists one, then it is just a supreme being and not necessarily the God of the Abrahamic religions.

I kind of like to think of the universe as god.

My thoughts are similar to this. If somehow somewhere there is some type of creator, then it is nothing like the gods that humans have invented.
 

Onceler

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
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You are thinking of the Akasha. It is all knowing the different religions call It God.
 

colonelciller

Senior member
Sep 29, 2012
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If we start with the premise that God exists...

that's the failure of logic right there
/end discussion

...however since we're in the realm of fantasy and trying to make sense out of religion is like trying to make logical sense out of the lore for World of Warcraft... I'll play along a little bit.

Intelligent Design Creationism is nonsensical internally-non-self-consistent garbage. Seeing as the main proponents of IDC (Intelligent Design Creationism) are Christians... and therefore that's the particular "god" we're talking about here... it must be said that the source text for the Christian religion is also nonsensical internally-non-self-consistent garbage.

Therefore I find the nonsensical internally-non-self-consistent garbage known as Intelligent Design Creationism to be completely consistent with the nonsensical internally-non-self-consistent garbage known as Christianity and therefore the particular "god" that we are discussing in this thread.

QED