crappy gpu in next xbox?

[blastingcap]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/07/29/xbox-720-development-kit-photos-surface


Edited to add: There were previous leaks and rumors about the HD6670-caliber GPUs going into the Xbox "720" and PS4 in articles such as:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/01/24/xbox-720-will-be-six-times-as-powerful-as-current-gen

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/...signals-a-sea-change-in-the-console-industry/

All that's changing, maybe, is a NV instead of AMD GPU, no word that the 6670 estimate was off. Even accounting for directX overhead vs coding for metal, it will be far slower than current high-end cards in 2012, let alone those in 2013 or 2014.

 

[Dark Shroud]

If the DX11 support is true then we're going to get some serious performance improvements in two years.

 

[RussianSensation]

From the article: "We haven’t been able to verify these specs, but when we last heard about the system, sources told IGN it would be six times more powerful than current-gen consoles and would feature an AMD 6000 series GPU similar to the Radeon HD 6670."

If it's HD6670, NOOOOOOO!! I am going to be so upset. Compare that to R500 in Xbox360 at the time when X1950XTX cost $500 USD. This would be EPIC flop by the time it launches in 2013. That's pretty much instant console port stagnation. I am so disappointed that the rumours of HD6670 are becoming true. HD7750 costs $90 on Newegg today. Come on, MS can surely get that GPU for $60-70 directly from AMD.

"the Durango kit features more than 8 GB of memory. Other sources have suggested that it could contain 12 GB, but it is important to remember that development hardware is typically composed of double the RAM of the retail kit. This is to accommodate for debugging tools and other systems, according to Eurogamer." ~ IBTimes

I have a feeling MS is pulling a Nintendo and trying to make $$ off the hardware from day 1.

Let's put this into context: "$141 USD is the cost of Xbox 360's entire graphics subsystem, that includes the ATI-designed, TSMC-manufactured GPU (Xenos) plus the NEC-manufactured embedded DRAM unit. This represents 26.9% of the total cost of Xbox 360 premium pack." ~ Xbitlabs

MS is so cheap! Maybe that's because they know that all Xbox 720 needs to run is Halo and COD #Shiftyfive with DX11 effects. Or maybe they think Kinect integration > good graphics card for their intended audience.

The GPU in PS3 was basically a 7900GT (or 7950GT) with half the memory bandwidth of the desktop version. When PS3 came out, 7950GT was still a relatively fast card and 8800GTX cost $600. Actually on launch date of PS3, 7900GTX was NV's flagship.

By the time Xbox360 launches, HD6670 will be 7-8x slower than AMD's flagship HD8970 series.

HD6670 = 48
HD7970 GE = 244 (already 5x faster) --> Source

vs. Xbox360/PS3 compared to PC Graphics from launch:

It took about 5 years for a desktop GPU to become 8x faster than an Xbox360. HD6670 will be about that much slower than GTX780/HD8970 when it launches (and actually far worse since Maxwell is due in 2014). Looks like we are in for a world of pain unless developers start making games for the PC from scratch. Maybe this will be the last hardware console generation.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Perhaps it's not an xbox, but a video editing PC instead?

I don't think this is the generational leap to propel PC graphics we were looking for.

 

[Wall Street]

Also to keep in mind is that this is a dev kit. It is likely that the next xbox could use a chip that has the same instruction set as a 6670 but has not been created yet. Hence they are using an older chip in place of the more powerful custom chip that has yet to tape out.

 

[tynopik]

Also to keep in mind is that this is a dev kit. It is likely that the next xbox could use a chip that has the same instruction set as a 6670 but has not been created yet. Hence they are using an older chip in place of the more powerful custom chip that has yet to tape out.

and they couldn't find a faster chip 'that has the same instruction set as a 6670'?

were they trying to boost margins on their dev machines?

 

[djnsmith7]

Either way, no way in hell those GPU's are going to be "cutting edge." If anything, they'll be at least 2 years behind the times. I'm not a huge console guy like most of you. Sure, I own a PS3, but only play a few games.

What surprises me about consoles though, is the ridiculously long transition period from one gen to the next. It's like they plan 3 years ahead with 3 year old technology (insert major WTF here).

How is that supposed to be anywhere near cutting edge when it hits the shelves? Very strange from a PC guy's perspective. Seems completely ass backwards for companies that are trying to push the technology / gaming limits. Hell, by the time the unit hits the shelves, it's already old.

They're limited from day 1.

 

[blackened23]

I've always found these type of threads to be really funny.

The two things to keep in mind is that console programming is much more efficient because it skips the API layer, thus you get much more performance by programming direct to metal than you would going through an API. Secondly, I don't imagine this thing is going to be more than 1080p, so it would be up to the task i'm sure. Also - didn't someone try to sell a dev kit a while back? I think has an nvidia gpu, not amd.

If you people are expecting a gtx 680 / 470 sli / 670 / etc sli in a console, you will be disappointed. There are strict tdp / size / etc requirements I would imagine, so i've always found people raising their pitchforks at console specs ridiculous. You can't put something like a 680 in a console. You could however, put a GT 640 in and it would probably be worse than the 6670 lmao. Even so, this thing is much more efficient programming wise and whatever part they put in will perform much better than it would in a PC. No, a console won't match a PC. Did anyone expect otherwise?

 

[blackened23]

Either way, no way in hell those GPU's are going to be "cutting edge." If anything, they'll be at least 2 years behind the times. I'm not a huge console guy like most of you. Sure, I own a PS3, but only play a few games.

What surprises me about consoles though, is the ridiculously long transition period from one gen to the next. It's like they plan 3 years ahead with 3 year old technology (insert major WTF here).

How is that supposed to be anywhere near cutting edge when it hits the shelves? Very strange from a PC guy's perspective. Seems completely ass backwards for companies that are trying to push the technology / gaming limits. Hell, by the time the unit hits the shelves, it's already old.

They're limited from day 1.

I feel like i've heard this argument before when the xbox 360 was released. It was stupid then and its still stupid now. It will sell like hotcakes whether it gets your stamp of approval or not IMO

 

[Red Hawk]

I didn't believe it when the rumors first surfaced that the next Xbox (which I will refer to as simply the 720) would be using an HD 6670 level GPU. I still don't want to believe it.

So yeah, Microsoft is definitely not shooting high with this. And this will not propel video game fidelity as high as putting, say, Juniper (5700 series) or Barts (6800 series) in it. Standards will go up, but not much. Optimization for the fixed console platform will probably push performance to be better than any PC with a 6670 could actually reach, but still. I doubt it would be much better than the 5770 I have now.

I do still wonder something -- will it use VLIW4? GCN is probably out of the question, but AMD has a downsized VLIW4 core as part of the Trinity APU. Maybe that's the GPU that will be in the 720? (and again, the fixed console platform will probably guarantee that an Xbox 720 with Trinity's VLIW4 core will be faster than any Trinity-based PC could actually go).

 

[RussianSensation]

blackened23, we don't expect GTX680 in a console but an HD7770 is definately possible. Like I said the GPU in the 360 was R500 and RSX in the PS3 was 7900GT or so. Both of those were about upper-mid-range when they launched. The equivalent of those GPUs would be something like an HD7850/GTX660 in 2013.

Also, I read the article stating the dev. kit had Intel CPU + NV GPU but I was pretty sure AMD had won the next Xbox contract. Remember that huge 59 page leaked document outlining the road-map for Durango? Also had an AMD GPU.

I think AMD secured a 10 year contract with MS when they signed on 360. I have never read a single source stating that Xbox720 will have an Nvidia GPU. Not that it matters since I think Kepler would have been even better than AMD for the Xbox due to its lower power consumption. However, if the HD6670-level of performance is true, it'll be far worse relative to PC than when PS3 and 360 launched.

Sure, coding for console is more efficient but you cant' just overcome an 8x GPU deficit that easily. Look at the chart I linked with GTX580 vs. Xbox360. It took 5 years for PC to get that fast. If these rumours are true, Xbox720 is obsolete from day 1 for Unreal Engine 4 and CryEngine 3 games at 1080P with 4AA at 60 fps. Essentially they'll be lucky to get AA + 30-40fps in most games at max settings.

 

[Red Hawk]

Wait wait wait. Wait.

The 6670 rumor is old and it isn't even part of this bit of news. The "news" is that it's using an Intel CPU and Nvidia GPU.

I'm actually doubting the authenticity of this now. Both of those bits are highly unlikely from everything else we've heard about the 720.

 

[djnsmith7]

I feel like i've heard this argument before when the xbox 360 was released. It was stupid then and its still stupid now. It will sell like hotcakes whether it gets your stamp of approval or not IMO

It's not a stupid argument, but you're entitled to your opinion. No need to insult those that disagree with you.

Just because a product sells doesn't mean it's leading edge, by any means. All it means is there are die-hards that will buy a specific product, regardless of what they get for their money. The name Apple should ring a bell.

Besides, what other options do the die-hards have? None, really. You get what MS & Sony produce, or you don't get anything.

 

[tviceman]

Uhhh so let me get this straight - the current development kit has an Nvidia GPU, but will be finalized with an AMD gpu?

DaE reports that the most recent round of development kits were sent out in February, with Intel CPUs and an NVIDA graphics card. He says the kit sports 8GB of RAM (though other sources say 12GB) and has a 64-bit operating system.

That is a messed up development kit. If this really is a development kit, and if this development really does have an Nvidia gpu, I think those early rumors are going to end up being wrong wrong wrong. MS went with Nvidia's Tegra 3 for their Surface tablet. I know this is connecting invisible dots, but I'm willing to be that somewhere in the agreement to go with an Nvidia SoC, there was AT LEAST talk of using an Nvidia GPU for the next xbox.

 

[blackened23]

It's not a stupid argument, but you're entitled to your opinion. No need to insult those that disagree with you.

Just because a product sells doesn't mean it's leading edge, by any means. All it means is there are die-hards that will buy a specific product, regardless of what they get for their money. The name Apple should ring a bell.

Besides, what other options do the die-hards have? None, really. You get what MS & Sony produce, or you don't get anything.

A console has never been and never will be intended to be "leading edge". It wasn't with the original xbox, or the xbox 360. I'm sure they could do something better but PC snobs (i'm one of them sometimes, to be honest) will usually always downplay console specs. Consoles have never been about stuffing 1000$ worth of hardware in a box, ever. I'm sure they could do better, but none of the specs are confirmed of course. (I dont think, anyway)

 

[Grooveriding]

Nice, another pile of crap console coming soon with seven year old horsepower. Saddle up for another 10 years of crappy console ports.

 

[toyota]

A console has never been and never will be intended to be "leading edge". It wasn't with the original xbox, or the xbox 360. I'm sure they could do something better but PC snobs (i'm one of them sometimes, to be honest) will usually always downplay console specs. Consoles have never been about stuffing 1000$ worth of hardware in a box, ever. I'm sure they could do better, but none of the specs are confirmed of course. (I dont think, anyway)

um the 360 was most certainly pretty leading edge when it came out.

 

[RussianSensation]

Uhhh so let me get this straight - the current development kit has an Nvidia GPU, but will be finalized with an AMD gpu?

This would be news. I would love a Kepler GPU in there over some anemic low-end HD6000/7000 series. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that AMD won the contract for MS's next console. I can't find it off the top of my head but definitively recall that AMD or someone announced that they secured the contract for MS's console but didnt' say what GPUs will be used.

Even recent rumours have pointed to PS4/720 sharing a GPU in the form of HD6670/7670 (rebadged 6670). I would be pleasantly surprised to find out this rumour is false but it's being repeated over and over.

 

[HurleyBird]

The "news" is that it's using an Intel CPU and Nvidia GPU.

The news is wrong.

https://twitter.com/superDaE

"Also for the record, its an AMD. #durange #car @IGN I never said it ONLY had 8GB of memory."

"Press sites are fucking stupid. When I say MORE to the question of 8GB ram, OBVIOUSLY I dont mean ONLY 8GB ram. Also, AMD card you idiots."

"@superDaE So it not NIVIDIA its a AMD graphics card?"
"AMD, yes."

No idea how the gaming media got the idea that it was an Nvidia card, but seeing how the gaming media fails at everything it doesn't really surprise me.

 

[RussianSensation]

Alberto Sanz‏@theonlysanz
@superDaE

Question 1: Is it true the rumors that point out Durango specs will be weak? (8 low speed cores and mid-range GPU)

Arijoy ‏@tunir4295
@superDaE

Question 2: how is durango compared to the highend pc's like with gtx 680 and core i7s ? more powerful than these pc's or less ?

Answer: DaE‏@superDaE
@tunir4295 Less, don't expect a PC, PC gaming will always be better.

Nice, another pile of crap console coming soon with seven year old horsepower. Saddle up for another 10 years of crappy console ports.

But, but COD Black Ops 3 with 12-year-olds trash talking on Mics = winning! :sneaky:

 

[Red Hawk]

This would be news. I would love a Kepler GPU in there over some anemic low-end HD6000/7000 series. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that AMD won the contract for MS's next console. I can't find it off the top of my head but definitively recall that AMD or someone announced that they secured the contract for MS's console but didnt' say what GPUs will be used.

Even recent rumours have pointed to PS4/720 sharing a GPU in the form of HD6670/7670 (rebadged 6670). I would be pleasantly surprised to find out this rumour is false but it's being repeated over and over.

Can we at least get a 7750 in there?

 

[Silverforce11]

This better not be true, because not rendering at 1080p full HD with at least 4x MSAA but scaling it up from 720p is stupid for a next gen console thats meant to have a lifespan of 5+ years. We would be stuck with terrible console ports for the next decade.

There's no substitute for excellence, you can have both excellent graphics and gameplay. If they are going to be slack with making weak consoles, I am going to be slack and not buy their games.

 

[Ancalagon44]

I've always found these type of threads to be really funny.

The two things to keep in mind is that console programming is much more efficient because it skips the API layer, thus you get much more performance by programming direct to metal than you would going through an API.

Not that I've ever programmed for a console, but I really doubt this to be true. I really doubt that console game developers would ignore the API and try to hand code.

Why do you think next gen job postings advertise the need for DX11 skills? Microsoft spends a fortune developing DX11 and its related APIs, so that they can make programmers lives easier. Reducing the cost and time to market for a game is the primary reason for its existence, it directly benefits MS's bottom line. Same reason why PS3 uses OpenGL - programmer productivity. Plus it makes skill transference much easier.

However, being that the dev team knows EXACTLY what hardware a user will have, they can optimize it easier. They dont have to worry about your PC being used for other tasks, or your AVG slowing everything down, or you having only 2GB of memory or something. So they can optimize the game for a particular spec of hardware.

 

[Grooveriding]

I'm honestly shocked. A 6670 in 2013 ? Even a 7750 is ridiculous. Unless they are planning to ramp up the release cycle on these things. If it's another 8 years without a refresh this is madness.

I don't even think a company like Sony could make a play to upstage them with better graphics abilities (Not that they'd want to use anything but cheap hardware after losing so much on PS3 consoles) It won't be worth anything because the game developers will have everything brought down to playable on the POS Xbox 720.

This is pretty bad news. A 6670 in 2013 ? WTF. Sure hope that is not the case. They're probably hoping to throw together a pile of dung and sell it for $500 with a $100 BOM.

 

[Ancalagon44]

I'm honestly shocked. A 6670 in 2013 ? Even a 7750 is ridiculous. Unless they are planning to ramp up the release cycle on these things. If it's another 8 years without a refresh this is madness.

I don't even think a company like Sony could make a play to upstage them with better graphics abilities (Not that they'd want to use anything but cheap hardware after losing so much on PS3 consoles) It won't be worth anything because the game developers will have everything brought down to playable on the POS Xbox 720.

This is pretty bad news. A 6670 in 2013 ? WTF. Sure hope that is not the case. They're probably hoping to throw together a pile of dung and sell it for $500 with a $100 BOM.

How much more money did Nintendo make from their Wii than Microsoft made from their Xbox?

Answer: a lot, since they never made a loss on a single Wii sold. Microsoft makes a loss on most Xboxes sold. Not so with the Durango apparently.

If AMD got the contract for the graphics chip, and Intel got the contract for the CPU, how did AMD screw that one up? They could have had an all AMD machine. That would have been great marketing.