Crap or get off the pot about CRT. Name the school district that teaches it.

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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,286
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Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more. Without context all discussion is meaningless.

I commonly teach students that not only did Columbus not discover America, the Vikings may have had competition as well. Some people want to take this back to the Phoenicians, though I think that it excessive. It is plausible, but unlikely and AFAIK unprovable. As for me, there is a case to be made for the Polynesians making it to South America and the possibility, based on some admittedly tenuous evidence, that Japanese sailors also made the voyage. I also get a kick out of mentioning the plausibility that Zheng He made the voyage, but that needs WAY more proof. So yes, I absolutely do these things and more.

One of my issues with CRT is that it is based on some very poorly thought out ideas. For example, the teaching of the Enlightenment is being pushed aside. It is too western, too European, and too white. But in my classes I provide context. For example, we always read Denis Diderot’s* eloquent attack on the slave trade in the Encyclopedie in the 18th century. But CRT wants to do away with this or, at the least, minimize it. So the people who benefitted most from the end of slavery should not have to learn why? That would actively sabotage their understanding of history. After all, it isn’t like it was a foregone conclusion slavery would end. In fact, with chocolate slavery and things of that nature we are seeing slavery rise again. So it is an easy argument to make that people like Diderot helped to found a movement that we have benefitted from greatly and their actions had just as much to do with, say, Afro-American history as they do with European and American history.

The point you make about Tulsa is an important one, but CRT isn’t needed to address this. (to be fair, I don’t usually cover Tulsa either, I dwell more on the issues of the Deep South, segregation, etc., but that is another matter and your point stands) You need to address the curriculum on the local level and reform it. The fact that it hasn’t been done is a disservice, but it would need more context. For example, one CRT supporter writes about how unjust it is that we do not cover how Afro-Americans have been treated by the housing authorities after WWII. True, I don’t cover that either. Then again I also tend not to cover how veterans of all stripes have been shafted again and again by the US Govt. (if you’d like I can elaborate). But CRT advocates highlight the issue of minorities and that makes it sound like only their issues have been ignored When there are many subjects that get shorted. Sometimes this is simply due to time, other times there are more malicious reasons. In the Tulsa case I have no trouble believing that you’re right and that needs to be rectified. But in a general survey of American history I don’t have time to deal with every grievance. If I did so fairly it would be a class on oppression, not US History (some will argue that is synonymous).

Thanks for the response Homer and I apologize for being so verbose. It is a failing of mine.
-ProfAaron


As for the other responders, I will try to write more for some of you as there are some good points. I do notice a surfeit of ad hominem attacks. Attack my veracity if you’d like, attack the veracity of the National Review (I don’t really care since I have no dog in that fight), but at least make a cogent argument. But these replies are exactly what has pushed me away. For example, the National Review list some of you deride is just that, a list. It provides BOTH pro- and anti-CRT views, albeit with an anti-CRT lean, just as the NYT does the opposite. But a knee jerk rejection of a source—a source that is merely citing other sources you’re not familiar with without looking at it—is a reaction of pure unadulterated ignorance. Still, if you think you know so much then please make your argument. If your case is that good surely you will want to showcase it…. Right?

———————————

*—for some of those with your snide replies, here is what Diderot says about slavery. Now read this and tell me why this should NOT be taught to young African-Americans?:

”Slave trade is the purchase of Negroes made by Europeans on the coasts of Africa, who then employ these unfortunate men as slaves in their colonies. This purchase of Negroes to reduce them into slaveryis a negotiation that violates all religion, morals, natural law, and human rights.

According to an Englishman of today, who is full of enlightenment and humanity, the Negroes did not become slaves by any right of war; nor did they voluntarily sacrifice themselves to slavery. Therefore, their children are not born as slaves. Everyone knows that Negroes are being purchased from their princes, who believe they have the right to own their freedom. Everybody is also aware that merchants transport these Negroes as if they were merchandise, either to their colonies or to America, where they are put on display to be sold.

If a trade of this kind can be justified by a moral principle, then there is absolutely no crime, however atrocious, that cannot be legitimized. Kings, princes, and magistrates are not owners of their subjects; therefore they are not entitled to their subjects’ freedom, nor do they have the right to sell anyone into slavery.

Moreover, nobody has the right to buy these subjects or to call himself their master. Men and their freedom are not objects of commerce; they can be neither sold, nor purchased, nor bought at any price. Thus, a man must blame only himself if his slave escapes. He paid money for illicit merchandise, even though all laws of humanity and equity forbid him to do so.

Thus, each of those unfortunates who are merely considered slaves, has the right to be declared free since he never lost his freedom and never could. Furthermore, neither his prince, nor his father, nor anybody else in the world has the ability to own this freedom. Accordingly, the purchase of it is worthless: this Negro does not, nor could he ever, deprive himself of his natural right. He carries it everywhere, and can demand that he be allowed to enjoy it wherever he goes. It is thus an obvious inhumanity that, in the free country to which the Negro is transported, judges do not immediately decide to liberate him by declaring that he is free, as he is the judges’ fellow man and has a soul like theirs.

There are some authors who set themselves up as political legal experts and who boldly say that questions relating to a society’s condition must be decided by its national laws. They also argue that when a man is denoted a slave in America, he must remain a slave when he is transported to Europe. However, this results in deciding the rights of humanity by despicable civil laws, as Cicero said. Must not the magistrates of a nation, out of consideration for another nation, have any regard for their own species? Is it their deference to a law, which obliges them to nothing, that forces them to trample on the Law of Nature, which obligates all men in all times and places? Is there any law that is as necessary as the external laws of equity? Can one raise the question of whether a judge is more obligated to observe them, than to respect the arbitrary and inhumane customs of colonies?

One might say that these colonies would be quickly ruined if the slaveryof Negroes were abolished. If this is true, must we then presume that the Negro population must be horribly wronged for us to enrich ourselves, or provide for our luxury? It is true that robbers’ purses would be empty if stealing were put to an end: but do men have the right to enrich themselves in such cruel and criminal ways in the first place? What gives a bandit the right to steal from passer-bys? Who is permitted to become wealthy by robbing his fellow men of their happiness? Is it legitimate to strip the human species of its most sacred rights, only to satisfy one’s own greed, vanity, or particular passions? No...European colonies should be destroyed rather than create so many unfortunates!

However, I do not believe that the abolition of slavery would ruin the European colonies. Their commerce would temporarily suffer: I wish for this. Since the outcome is always affected by new situations, one could not immediately follow another system. However, many other advantages would result from this abolition.

It is this trade of Negroes, it is the usage of servitude, which prevented America from being populated as promptly that it could have. If one frees the Negroes, in a few generations this vast and fertile country will have an infinite number of inhabitants. The arts and talents will flourish there, and instead of being barely populated by savages andHistory in totality has to leak out over time. ferocious beasts, America will be populated by industrious men only. It is freedom, it is also industry that will be the real sources of abundance. As long as a population conserves this industry and this freedom, there will be nothing to fear. Industry, just out of necessity, is ingenious and inventive. It finds a thousand different ways to procure riches, and if one of these channels of opulence gets blocked, a hundred others immediately open.

Sensitive and generous souls would undoubtedly applaud these reasons in the name of humanity, but the avarice and greed that dominate the earth, will always refuse to listen to them.”
I will read it but just haven't yet. The answer to my question about why the full history of this country isn't taught ala Tulsa is simple. I'm surprised you haven't figured it out. The answer is in the question, "who writes history?". It sure isn't minorities. White people write history and they only want the truth as to how they see it. Do you think if the citizens of Tulsa knew about their cities they would think differently about reparations for the survivors and their families? Knowing how generational wealth was stolen from the black residents of Greenwood and the residents slaughtered do you think they deserve to be made whole??
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Here is someone who agrees with you, is a PhD student, and also talks about how the two have become conflated (to borrow the author’s wording)….


“This rejection of CRT and the 1619 Project is a growing problem and is definitely something that I, a researcher of CRT and hopefully future professor, am concerned about.”


Wow, I had thought this might actually be a place to have a conversation but apparently many of you just throw tantrums when someone disagrees. What s great indictment of our society…..

Next.


That's an odd post. You defend your conflation of the two things by pointing to an article that is pointing out how people have, wrongly, conflated the two things.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,851
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Wow, I had thought this might actually be a place to have a conversation but apparently many of you just throw tantrums when someone disagrees. What s great indictment of our society…..

Next.

Ah yes, the oft-repeated fizzling-out every time another rightwing sociopath deigns to create an account on these forums in order to "school liberals" on things they "must not be aware of."

We're tired of your shit. We've been here a long time. We've heard it all. Nonsense always smells the same.

People always get a fare shake here when acting honestly--not when the same copy-pasted nonsense is spammed into these forums again and again, always transparently, as if we somehow aren't aware of your pedestrian tactics.

Pro-tip, the clowns you are used to at The Right Stuff and other neofascist forums are far easier marks. You've been conditioned among simpletons, and have now wandered into the wrong alley here, Sparky.

I'm guessing if you actually are some sort of associate professor, it would be at, I dunno, Liberty University?

Just a thought...
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,228
136
Ah yes, the oft-repeated fizzling-out every time another rightwing sociopath deigns to create an account on these forums in order to "school liberals" on things they "must not be aware of."

We're tired of your shit. We've been here a long time. We've heard it all. Nonsense always smells the same.

People always get a fare shake here when acting honestly--not when the same copy-pasted nonsense is spammed into these forums again and again, always transparently, as if we somehow aren't aware of your pedestrian tactics.

Pro-tip, the clowns you are used to at The Right Stuff and other neofascist forums are far easier marks. You've been conditioned among simpletons, and have now wandered into the wrong alley here, Sparky.

I'm guessing if you actually are some sort of associate professor, it would be at, I dunno, Liberty University?

Just a thought...

I think more likely formerly with Corinthian Colleges and this performance is part of his tryout for good ol’ Liberty U.
 

ProfAaron

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2021
16
5
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That's an odd post. You defend your conflation of the two things by pointing to an article that is pointing out how people have, wrongly, conflated the two things.

Perhaps I should have been clearer. My point being that even someone who thinks they are two totally different things has noticed that people view them as one. I disagree as do many. The people arguing that these are two separate things act as though there are bright lines between subjects and theories. The 1619 project is a an excellent example since it is a direct descendant of CRT. The entire premise of CRT is that the USA is systemically racist and the 1619 project attempts to show that historically. So while I disagree with this PhD candidate (she is being disingenuous or willfully obtuse) I can grant her that that is her POV.

What I find so odd here is the animosity. They cannot debate or discuss Without resorting to attacks and have been incapable of conceiving they might be wrong. I have debated white supremacists with more tact than what some of the posters here exhibit. That says something, doesn’t it? I have also noticed that they constantly ignore my points and, having not even looked at the list in the link, failed to note the James McWhorter is there. He is a noted black author, linguist, and has made the same observation about CRT advocates that I hav….. it is a religion based on faith and it’s adherents attack anyone who disagrees with fire.

EDIT: I should add that the reason why ivwhateverhisname thinks that CRT and 1619 are unrelated is that in theory CRT is a legal theory whereas 1619 is a historical theoretical approach. What he fails to understand is that, as I mention briefly above, these fields overlap. Intersectionality began its life as a legal theory as well but is used much more in fields such as my own. so in the case of 1619, it was created using CRT theory after it had crossed over from the legal sphere. They are intricately intertwined even if some proponents want to distance them from each other for their own reasons.

Sorry my earlier post wasn‘t clearer, I hope this helps.
 
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ProfAaron

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2021
16
5
36
I will read it but just haven't yet. The answer to my question about why the full history of this country isn't taught ala Tulsa is simple. I'm surprised you haven't figured it out. The answer is in the question, "who writes history?". It sure isn't minorities. White people write history and they only want the truth as to how they see it. Do you think if the citizens of Tulsa knew about their cities they would think differently about reparations for the survivors and their families? Knowing how generational wealth was stolen from the black residents of Greenwood and the residents slaughtered do you think they deserve to be made whole??

If you read only one author on the list read McWhorter. As I mentioned in the above post, he is a like-minded academic and wrote extensively on this subject. I don’t know if you will agree with him, I doubt it, but seeing your posts I think he will at least provide food for thought.

Let me say that I agree that there must be recompense made. Tulsa will be an excellent place to start. I do believe, however, that lines will have to be drawn. How far back do we go? Who pays? Who receives? I think we can sort through this so long as people behave moderately…. But looking at this thread since I posted what do you think the chance of that is? Still, I hold out hope.

About history, I get where you’re coming from but this is such a terribly complex subject. Part of the issue here is that there is no such thing as a full history. The very question is like tugging on and trying to unravel the Gordian Knot. If you try to have an orthodoxy in history you’re more likely to take this knotty situation and do as Alexander the Great did and cut the Gordian Knot in half. Consider this: for every single thing I add to my class something needs to come out. Should I discuss Tulsa and not some other part of the black struggle in America? If I do both then what else do I cut? Is Tulsa more important than, say, WWII or Vietnam? Which if of these would be THE history of the USA since there is a finite amount of time in the classroom?

[EDIT: it occurred to me that you had mentioned written history, but I have been talking about the classroom. Perhaps we have talked past each other a bit. I strongly believe that whatever a person wants to write, including CRT history, they should be free to write and give voice to. That doesn’t mean I will agree with it, but it should absolutely get its place in the marketplace of ideas. In the classroom we need to be more discerning because time is limited. That is no ones fault, it is just the nature of life. I’m not sure if this difference is an issue for you but I thought it was worth noting.]

This is what I suspect you don’t realize and there isn’t any reason you would be aware of this unless this is your field. Unless you add time to the class it becomes a zero sum game—whatever you add takes away from something else. CRT advocates want to add a huge amount of history of what they deem important without telling you what they plan on removing. I have seen what they plan on removing, at least in my own area. It is why I mentioned the Enlightenment above.

Anyway, I was hoping to find people who could debate an interesting subject. You have made some good points as have one or two other people and I do appreciate that. The vitriol here, however, only proves to me that most people seem incapable of substantive discussion. I wish you the best but ask yourself this: if CRT is truly the right thing why would people need to defend it this way? Shouldn‘t it’s merits stand on their own? If they can then they would be right and if it cannot then they are wrong, but most of the responses I have gotten never even tried coherent counter arguments. You did, however, and I admire that. Feel free to PM me if you wish to talk some more.
 
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Pohemi

Lifer
Oct 2, 2004
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CRT advocates want to add a huge amount of history of what they deem important without telling you what they plan on removing. I have seen what they plan on removing, at least in my own area.
"Huge amount" of what? Missing details from actual history? Another statement with nothing but anecdotal bullshit.
...The vitriol here, however, only proves to me that most people seem incapable of substantive discussion...but most of the responses I have gotten never even tried coherent counter arguments.
Bullshit deserves no counters or debate. You are simply the eternal victim, a poor little snowflake.

It was clearly explained why you got some of the responses you did, and how you could change your rhetoric to avoid those type of responses. Instead, you just doubled down.

Fuck off, clown.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Perhaps I should have been clearer. My point being that even someone who thinks they are two totally different things has noticed that people view them as one. I disagree as do many. The people arguing that these are two separate things act as though there are bright lines between subjects and theories. The 1619 project is a an excellent example since it is a direct descendant of CRT. The entire premise of CRT is that the USA is systemically racist and the 1619 project attempts to show that historically. So while I disagree with this PhD candidate (she is being disingenuous or willfully obtuse) I can grant her that that is her POV.

What I find so odd here is the animosity. They cannot debate or discuss Without resorting to attacks and have been incapable of conceiving they might be wrong. I have debated white supremacists with more tact than what some of the posters here exhibit. That says something, doesn’t it? I have also noticed that they constantly ignore my points and, having not even looked at the list in the link, failed to note the James McWhorter is there. He is a noted black author, linguist, and has made the same observation about CRT advocates that I hav….. it is a religion based on faith and it’s adherents attack anyone who disagrees with fire.

EDIT: I should add that the reason why ivwhateverhisname thinks that CRT and 1619 are unrelated is that in theory CRT is a legal theory whereas 1619 is a historical theoretical approach. What he fails to understand is that, as I mention briefly above, these fields overlap. Intersectionality began its life as a legal theory as well but is used much more in fields such as my own. so in the case of 1619, it was created using CRT theory after it had crossed over from the legal sphere. They are intricately intertwined even if some proponents want to distance them from each other for their own reasons.

Sorry my earlier post wasn‘t clearer, I hope this helps.


"Intersectionality", as the term seems to be used in general political dicourse, is a pointlessly-polysllablic academic term for something that's bleeding obvious - that different forms of advantage and disadvantage interact in complicated ways.

To me it seems a weird irony that the term embodies what it describes. The crediting of 'identifying' the concept to an academic, even though its' something many non-academic lower-class people have always been aware of just from their own life experiences, is an example of class privilege. That the academic involved was also (I believe) black, so clearly had experience of disadvantage also, shows how these things can be very complicated.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,286
32,778
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If you read only one author on the list read McWhorter. As I mentioned in the above post, he is a like-minded academic and wrote extensively on this subject. I don’t know if you will agree with him, I doubt it, but seeing your posts I think he will at least provide food for thought.

Let me say that I agree that there must be recompense made. Tulsa will be an excellent place to start. I do believe, however, that lines will have to be drawn. How far back do we go? Who pays? Who receives? I think we can sort through this so long as people behave moderately…. But looking at this thread since I posted what do you think the chance of that is? Still, I hold out hope.

About history, I get where you’re coming from but this is such a terribly complex subject. Part of the issue here is that there is no such thing as a full history. The very question is like tugging on and trying to unravel the Gordian Knot. If you try to have an orthodoxy in history you’re more likely to take this knotty situation and do as Alexander the Great did and cut the Gordian Knot in half. Consider this: for every single thing I add to my class something needs to come out. Should I discuss Tulsa and not some other part of the black struggle in America? If I do both then what else do I cut? Is Tulsa more important than, say, WWII or Vietnam? Which if of these would be THE history of the USA since there is a finite amount of time in the classroom?

[EDIT: it occurred to me that you had mentioned written history, but I have been talking about the classroom. Perhaps we have talked past each other a bit. I strongly believe that whatever a person wants to write, including CRT history, they should be free to write and give voice to. That doesn’t mean I will agree with it, but it should absolutely get its place in the marketplace of ideas. In the classroom we need to be more discerning because time is limited. That is no ones fault, it is just the nature of life. I’m not sure if this difference is an issue for you but I thought it was worth noting.]

This is what I suspect you don’t realize and there isn’t any reason you would be aware of this unless this is your field. Unless you add time to the class it becomes a zero sum game—whatever you add takes away from something else. CRT advocates want to add a huge amount of history of what they deem important without telling you what they plan on removing. I have seen what they plan on removing, at least in my own area. It is why I mentioned the Enlightenment above.

Anyway, I was hoping to find people who could debate an interesting subject. You have made some good points as have one or two other people and I do appreciate that. The vitriol here, however, only proves to me that most people seem incapable of substantive discussion. I wish you the best but ask yourself this: if CRT is truly the right thing why would people need to defend it this way? Shouldn‘t it’s merits stand on their own? If they can then they would be right and if it cannot then they are wrong, but most of the responses I have gotten never even tried coherent counter arguments. You did, however, and I admire that. Feel free to PM me if you wish to talk some more.
I don't see the problem with teaching CRT somewhere like AP History. There needs to be a level of maturity to handle the complexity that the course would entail. College definitely.

I don't trust white people with writing history. They can't even get correct what happened in the country <1 year ago Jan 6 , why should we trust them with 250 years of history? These are the same people that taught Columbus. Maybe it's about time minorities had a greater say in the writing of this country's history.

I'm still going to read your article. Just haven't yet.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
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CRT as a background for instruction is quite similar to using something like Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States as a framework. It's the exact same history, just from the perspective of the actual people living through and affected by the policies and inventions and machinations of the "great men theory."

This pseudo professor wallows in the same idea that history is only interesting under the light of "great men." Every thing is organized around it. Yes, they are all very important and they have started a great many wars for everyone's benefit, but it only ever ignores 90% of the world around it, and of course depends on the tenuous assertion that history is defined by singular events, by decades (a meaningless metric), and of course those that are tapped to perpetuate this model in a self-feeding circle.

I'm guessing our self-anointed professor is no fan of Howard Zinn, either.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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CRT as a background for instruction is quite similar to using something like Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States as a framework. It's the exact same history, just from the perspective of the actual people living through and affected by the policies and inventions and machinations of the "great men theory."

This pseudo professor wallows in the same idea that history is only interesting under the light of "great men." Every thing is organized around it. Yes, they are all very important and they have started a great many wars for everyone's benefit, but it only ever ignores 90% of the world around it, and of course depends on the tenuous assertion that history is defined by singular events, by decades (a meaningless metric), and of course those that are tapped to perpetuate this model in a self-feeding circle.

I'm guessing our self-anointed professor is no fan of Howard Zinn, either.
He mentioned John McWhorter as a reference who would be the polar opposite of Zinn. Zinn has many fans. I read one of his books on a trip to Vegas a few years back and was complimented twice. McWhorter was on Bill Maher's show about 3-4 weeks ago if anyone wants to compare.

I'm willing to give anyone a fair shake although PA fits a pattern we've seen here before to which he may be unaware.
 
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ProfAaron

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2021
16
5
36
"Intersectionality", as the term seems to be used in general political dicourse, is a pointlessly-polysllablic academic term for something that's bleeding obvious - that different forms of advantage and disadvantage interact in complicated ways.

To me it seems a weird irony that the term embodies what it describes. The crediting of 'identifying' the concept to an academic, even though its' something many non-academic lower-class people have always been aware of just from their own life experiences, is an example of class privilege. That the academic involved was also (I believe) black, so clearly had experience of disadvantage also, shows how these things can be very complicated.

Academics have an amazing track record for making things complex. It is a frustration I often share, though I am sure I am guilty as well. The problem is often that we spend so much time wrangling over details that we can‘t see the proverbial forest for the trees.

As for intersectionality, in fairness it started life as a legal theory as well and when it was created it solved a problem where a person was only allowed to make claims under a single issue (eg- was your career subverted because you were black? Female? Jewish? Handicapped? Inuit? What if it is all of the above?) when, as you noted,

I don't see the problem with teaching CRT somewhere like AP History. There needs to be a level of maturity to handle the complexity that the course would entail. College definitely.

I don't trust white people with writing history. They can't even get correct what happened in the country <1 year ago Jan 6 , why should we trust them with 250 years of history? These are the same people that taught Columbus. Maybe it's about time minorities had a greater say in the writing of this country's history.

I'm still going to read your article. Just haven't yet.

There is a lot to unpack here and perhaps it would be better for its own thread, so I won’t go into it too much. What I will say is this: human beings are biased and I’m sure you know this. Because of this one person’s “truth” can easily not be the way another looks at things. However, I am more of a traditionalist. I believe that bias needs to be fought against, mitigated, and dealt with empirically. A growing percentage of young historians believe the exact opposite. When I began my PhD one of the professors I studied under said that in her opinion ”history was about staking out your ideological territory and defending it no matter what.” My jaw dropped…. This was a Cornell educated PhD proposing that we make an argument and defend it disregarding the evidence for or against it!

My point here is that many of the young, minority voices you’re hoping will right the ship I suspect will tilt it over to the other extreme. As for race and ethnicity, when a student asks me I like to say this: if you want to judge someone close your eyes. Now tell me the pros and cons of this person, their argument, their actions, etc. After you open your eyes your position shouldn’t change. If it does then most likely it is your/my own prejudice and not the other person.

Anyway, despite this I can understand why you probably feel the way you do. This country has done wrong many times and, particularly with Afro-Americans and Amerindians, has lost trust.

In re: to teaching CRT, I think we would need to define what we are talking about, but I could see taking parts into an AP class, definitely. Maturity will be key, I agree, as well as context of course. But I do have problems with a blanket statement that “CRT should be taught” because it is such a wide ranging thing. For example, CRT advocates place narrative above citable sources. So if an event makes you “feel” oppressed then it is oppressive, even if we can show that that narrative isn’t accurate. Because I believe, like you, that there are injustices in the historical record, I can’t agree to endorse what will inevitably create more. But rectify the injustices? I sincerely try to do that.

Okay, I promised myself I would be brief so I deleted part and this is still long…. Verbosity is my bane.

He mentioned John McWhorter as a reference who would be the polar opposite of Zinn. Zinn has many fans. I read one of his books on a trip to Vegas a few years back and was complimented twice. McWhorter was on Bill Maher's show about 3-4 weeks ago if anyone wants to compare.

I'm willing to give anyone a fair shake although PA fits a pattern we've seen here before to which he may be unaware.


McWhorter was on Maher?! I didn‘t realize… Is there a place I could see? Either way, thank you for letting me know.

If you’ve read Zinn then you know good history. I don’t agree with everything Zinn does in his history, but I can’t argue against his being one of the most influential historians of his time. Did you like his approach?

Admittedly I hadn’t posted or even read anything here in something like a decade, so I am pretty unaware of just about everything here. I have been reading posts and articles to catch up on PC information to build my kids some PCs—quite a lot has happened since they were born in ‘12. The funny thing is I used to be extremely well informed about electronics, but ten years of parenting and health problems and I feel like a newly born babe. Anyway, I had just started a new account—I have no idea what my old account was called any longer, maybe it was scrubbed anyway—and I noticed your thread which was interesting to me. In retrospect perhaps my approach could have been better. My intent was merely in participate in this discussion and, hopefully, add my own experiences.

If I have time I will follow up. Happy Turkey Day everyone!
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,286
32,778
136
Homer,

Here is a reader on CRT:


I know that your first reaction will be to dismiss this because it is a conservative source, but please do not—some of those articles in that collection are good. Like you, I do not care for a great many of the people who have chosen to oppose CRT. I have little doubt that many of their reasons are reprehensible. However, that doesn’t mean that CRT makes sense either. I am a lifelong liberal and Democrat. In fact, I have only voted for a Republican once and that person was also fairly liberal (this is NJ after all). So I have no love for either Republicans nor conservatism.

What I do believe, however, is that I have always believed in liberal values because to me they made the most sense. CRT does NOT make sense. As a professor of history I see this as a perversion of my discipline by people who are ideologues and, worse, often not historians! For example, one of CRT’s proponents is a microbiologist. She is entitled to her opinion, but referring to her as a source on this debate is laughable. Can you imagine if someone with a PhD in history was being asked about what approach we should take to COVID!? I would feel very uncomfortable if one of my colleagues was speaking out on an issue like that. So why are people like this microbiologist telling us about American history? That is part of what is going on here.

If you are interested I can give you more feedback. In re: to your OP, my stepfather is a counselor in a local school district here in NJ and parts of the CRT approach have been pushed but rejected. So while I cannot give you an example where CRT is being taught, I can assure you that it is being pushed. You need to keep that in mind in your search for an answer. Just because it is getting shot down doesn’t mean that it isn‘t being pushed.
I read the article and here is my response. Most of the article is rhetorical hyperbolic bloviating. Someone's warped interpretation of something they know little about. However, I will focus on a few points.

Most people are worked up over CRT for the same reason they got worked up over widespread voter fraud, the election was stolen from Trump, Colin Kapernick taking a knee and Obama being born in Kenya. Take a guess why they got all worked up? This will give you a clue...

fox-crt-june%20%281%29.png


Now that the election is over that graph has plummeted down to 20 and will soon go close to zero. People are getting wound up because they are being told to get wound up. That's why half of Republicans thought Obama was born in Kenya.

I next want to deal with the last section which reads...
The long game should be more grassroots involvement in ensuring that schools teach American history and values with fairness and accuracy. That includes the many racial injustices in our history that have deviated from our founding ideals. It is not improper, censorious, or unconstitutional for the people to decide what should be taught to children by government employees in government schools on government property. In this case, common sense, and devotion to a truthful version of our history, demands nothing less.

History isn't taught for fairness it's taught to educate us on our past. Should we remove the German and Austrian students from the room when the Holocaust is taught because it might make them feel bad?

I find the phrase "devotion to a truthful version of our history" laughable. Now they want to worry about that? What the hell have they been doing for the last 100 years? I gave you 2 examples of lying about this country's history and ignoring a very important event. Now that some black people want to inject new ideas into history white people are concerned about fairness and accuracy?

I also find this phrase problematic...
That includes the many racial injustices in our history that have deviated from our founding ideals

If you are a Prof you know the "founding ideals" were words only. They applied to rich white male land owners. This country was never founded on racial justice. If I'm wrong about that feel free to correct me. Want more truth, the financial wealth of this country was built on the backs of enslaved black people. Think that phrase would be allowed in any of these newly conservative school districts even though it's true??

Want to see what is really going on read up on the story of Southlake, Texas. They fired the first black principal on the accusation of CRT which was proven not to be true. Know what his crime was? After the murder of George Floyd, he suggested a discussion of race was warranted. For that he was driven out of his job.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,851
31,343
146
^isn't it funny how the staunch conservatives in that article reinforce public schools as "government employees, government property" when attacking what they don't understand, but then go insane if you dare to question when the same government employees and schools are pushing out religion or fascist nonsense like the Pledge of Allegiance?

Imagine that.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,444
5,852
146
^isn't it funny how the staunch conservatives in that article reinforce public schools as "government employees, government property" when attacking what they don't understand, but then go insane if you dare to question when the same government employees and schools are pushing out religion or fascist nonsense like the Pledge of Allegiance?

Imagine that.

Isn't it funny that despite him repeatedly saying he's not doing something he goes and puts out paragraphs doing exactly what he claims he isn't doing?

I did enjoy him straight up saying he's friendlier with white supremacists though. Gee, someone that agrees with white supremacists finds it easier to get along with white supremacists? Wow, such a shock! Although why he doesn't seem to realize that was obvious from his first post, well its that weird mix of total self absorption with no real introspection or self reflection whatsoever that seems prevalent among right wingers.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,286
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Wednesday Dec 8 2021 and still nobody can name the school district where CRT is taught.

Actually I hope that changes soon. Perhaps AP History
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,286
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Wednesday Dec 15 2021 and still nobody can name the school district where CRT is taught.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
25,563
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Homer,

Here is a reader on CRT:


I know that your first reaction will be to dismiss this because it is a conservative source, but please do not—some of those articles in that collection are good. Like you, I do not care for a great many of the people who have chosen to oppose CRT. I have little doubt that many of their reasons are reprehensible. However, that doesn’t mean that CRT makes sense either. I am a lifelong liberal and Democrat. In fact, I have only voted for a Republican once and that person was also fairly liberal (this is NJ after all). So I have no love for either Republicans nor conservatism.

What I do believe, however, is that I have always believed in liberal values because to me they made the most sense. CRT does NOT make sense. As a professor of history I see this as a perversion of my discipline by people who are ideologues and, worse, often not historians! For example, one of CRT’s proponents is a microbiologist. She is entitled to her opinion, but referring to her as a source on this debate is laughable. Can you imagine if someone with a PhD in history was being asked about what approach we should take to COVID!? I would feel very uncomfortable if one of my colleagues was speaking out on an issue like that. So why are people like this microbiologist telling us about American history? That is part of what is going on here.

If you are interested I can give you more feedback. In re: to your OP, my stepfather is a counselor in a local school district here in NJ and parts of the CRT approach have been pushed but rejected. So while I cannot give you an example where CRT is being taught, I can assure you that it is being pushed. You need to keep that in mind in your search for an answer. Just because it is getting shot down doesn’t mean that it isn‘t being pushed.

As noted many times before, CRT is NOT a “liberal” concept…in fact it is anti-liberal in terms of some of the solutions it proposes.