Covidiots thread

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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,069
3,420
126
The guys I work with would say it's because the doctors and hospitals get paid more for treating patients in the ICU than they get for quick and easy cures.

This is also why they won't manufacture the cure for cancer which is just a powder that costs pennies and cures you in 4 days.
That is what I call a market opportunity. If (1) something costs pennies, (2) people are willing to pay you their life savings for it because their life depends on it, and (3) it isn't being sold elsewhere, then your coworkers should go for it. Make themselves trillionaires.
 
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uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,544
2,856
136
That is what I call a market opportunity. If (1) something costs pennies, (2) people are willing to pay you their life savings for it because their life depends on it, and (3) it isn't being sold elsewhere, then your coworkers should go for it. Make themselves trillionaires.
Ironically it's these people bleating "CALITALISM! RAWWRR" that fail to understand it. If it's actually effective at saving your life, I'm charging you everything you got, cause that's what it's worth.

The fact it costs me pennies to make is just padding my margins. Rube.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
Ivermectin is considered one of the most important HUMAN drugs available by WHO: eEML - Electronic Essential Medicines List (essentialmeds.org)

And its creators won the Nobel Prize for it in 2015: Ivermectin: a multifaceted drug of Nobel prize-honoured distinction with indicated efficacy against a new global scourge, COVID-19 - PubMed (nih.gov)

So its not just for livestock. It has plenty of human uses, too.

I read your article, and its pretty craptastic honestly.

Let's review.

Let's understand that this is a review article. This is not peer reviewed, as its merely a review of published researched.

Its effectively an opinion piece by a set of authors after reviewing the landscape of published papers that tries to build support for their conclusions.
No new lab data is presented, but some problematic data interpretations are presented.

As @dullard already pointed out, the authors are suspect. One is tied to a drug company trying to sell IVM, and the lead has a history of promoting other ineffective and crank treatments.

As I commented, the hypebeast article title is absurd and indicative of poor writing and a weak argument, and the rest of the article followed suit.

There are three parts to the article.

1. Brief review of a couple animal studies, no explanation of relevancy, and underwhelming results:

"While viral load was not reduced [in infected golden hamsters], these improvements included one-third of the incidence of anosmia and sharp reductions in the Il-6/Il-10 ratio in lung tissue"

Sick hamsters got more sleep. Fantastic.

2. A review of other reviews.
Handwaving away the one that said IVM was not an effective treatment is wrong.

Here is the article in question. Please read. Far more professionally written, presentation of data and methods, and overall higher quality of logical conclusions.

"We found in our systematic review that, compared with SOC or placebo, IVM did not reduce primary outcomes (all-cause mortality rate, LOS, and AEs) or secondary outcomes (SARS-CoV-2 clearance in respiratory samples, and SAEs) in RCTs of patients with mostly mild COVID-19 disease.

...
However, theoretical considerations, experimental and observational evidence, misinformation, self-medication, and the wide availability of IVM led to its use as treatment of COVID-19 in low- and middle-income countries, assuming a priori efficacy and safety.
...

The use of IVM to treat COVID-19 has shown several limitations in management strategies: lack of transparency by some political leaders or media to support drug use without evidence of efficacy and safety; lack of leadership in implementing therapeutic science-based guidelines; and misuse of effective scientific communication [40, 41]. Similar issues were previously experienced with hydroxychloroquine and will probably be repeated with other repurposed drugs. Therefore, there is an urgent need to establish collaborative efforts among scientists, practitioners, communicators, and policy makers. A large, well-designed, and well-reported RCT provides the most reliable information on efficacy in the specific target population from which the sample was drawn. Well-designed and well-reported meta-analyses can provide valuable and confirmatory information [42].

IVM is generally safe at conventional doses for approved indications [4, 5]. However, its safety became a concern owing to longer use and/or higher doses in patients with COVID-19. IVM was found to be similar to placebo in safety and tolerability, even at 10 times the highest FDA-approved dose of 200 μg/kg in healthy volunteers [43], but not in patients with COVID-19. In addition, the use of IVM needs further analysis when IVM is combined with other agents for COVID-19 [44, 45]. In several settings, it was wrongly assumed that the potential benefits of using repurposed drugs outweigh their potential harms [46]. Well-designed RCTs with longer treatment and higher doses are necessary to further evaluate the safety of IVM in patients with COVID-19."

..
In the context of a misinformation infodemic, the dissemination of these results caused confusion for patients, clinicians (in particular those without training in critical reading of scientific literature), and decision makers, who may manipulate the information with political interests"

Pointing to some studies for prophylactic use, and excusing the very small sample size of the studies. Overall mixed results are discussed, but authors take most generous interpretation. These studies use low dose (similar to what is given for approved use of IVM.

Another review of "safety" of high dose IVM, since the treatment for covid infection is 50x the standard dose, but has not actually been formally studied for safety at that level.
Not highly convincing, since a good part of the article discusses a screw up of placebo and active drug for the Columbian study, but eh, its all ok in the end?!
The other article linked above discusses why this is a problem.

3. Bullshit "analysis" correlating change in Peruvian govt ( & restricting IVM) and a sharp increase in deaths

This section is where the article goes from poorly written and reasoned, to complete flaming pile of crap.

They correlate the rise in cases/deaths (which they decide to go around official data to get, and use excess deaths instead for reasons..) with a political change and change in IVM policies.

"After a restrictive IVM treatment policy was enacted under a new Peruvian president who took office on 17th November, however, deaths increased 13-fold over the two months following 1st December through 1st February 2021 (Fig. 1A). Potential confounding factors, including lockdowns and herd immunity, were ruled out using Google community mobility data, seropositivity rates, population densities and geographic distributions of SARS-CoV-2 genetic variations and by restricting all analysis except that for Fig. 1A to ages ≥ 60."

What about other explanations? That's quite a conclusion.

Oh, they just say they looked at other causes, and some data (show none of it) and just decide they are all irrelevant?!
Google mobility data? Really? That's part of your proof of efficacy? Holy shit

What about the outbreak of Lambda and Brazil P.1 variant also at that same exact time?!

No, def not a mutated variant, its because new President Dummy restricted IVM.

This review is published in Aug 21, yet their graph only goes to Feb 21.
Why?!

The third wave in Peru (like many other places) continued until its peak in April and has been on a long decline still today.

But no. Its def the IVM. If Peruvians only ate more horse paste...

This article is really bad. No wonder they needed to say "nobel prize" seven fuckin times in their horseshit article.

If this is the best IVM can come up with.. sad.

In fact, its so bad its hard to believe its written as a good faith article on IVM, and not a paper to publish at a respected URL to then be used by rubes to link and share on Facebook, reddit, 4chan et al before they rush off to the feed store.
 
Last edited:

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,060
48,072
136
The guys I work with would say it's because the doctors and hospitals get paid more for treating patients in the ICU than they get for quick and easy cures.

This is also why they won't manufacture the cure for cancer which is just a powder that costs pennies and cures you in 4 days.
You would think that in a competitive landscape like the hospital and drug industry one hospital or drug manufacturer would try and gain a competitive advantage by curing COVID patients with this miracle drug instead of just letting them die. Imagine how strong that advertising slogan would be! ‘Come to us and don’t die of COVID’.

It’s especially generous of Merck to discourage its use as they manufacture ivermectin I’m the US and don’t have any vaccines or other COVID products to sell at the moment and are developing new ones at considerable expense. They should just take a play from the pharma bro and increase the price by like 1000%, as it currently a global pandemic! What a bunch of dummies.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
@blackangst1

It would be nice if IVM actually has some utility, but articles like that should elicit skepticism and not excitement.

The alternative treatment advocates are pushing instead of vaccines, supposedly due to lack of safety data, but then advocating IVM in very high doses with no quality studies, poor controls, and lack of oversight is illogical and irresponsible.

The current treatment sounds like its a 50x dose with very little objective data to demonstrate efficacy and safety for patients seriously ill w. covid.

Let's see a real study with real controls, but get your vaccine in the meantime. Don't bank your health on charlatans and drug pushers.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
If IVM is so effective, and actually a spike protein inhibitor, why not conduct an in vitro study on human cell lines, publish the mechanism and the supporting data?

Not that difficult to do. Let's do some actual science and not marketing material.
 

VW MAN

Senior member
Jun 27, 2020
677
861
96
I love it when people like @blackangst1 reveal that they are nothing more then a willing cuck to conspiracy bullshit. It allows me to call them dumbass and not feel bad in the slightest. Makes me feel sorta like Red Foreman.
 
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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
I read your article, and its pretty craptastic honestly.

Let's review.

Let's understand that this is a review article. This is not peer reviewed, as its merely a review of published researched.

Its effectively an opinion piece by a set of authors after reviewing the landscape of published papers that tries to build support for their conclusions.
No new lab data is presented, but some problematic data interpretations are presented.

As @dullard already pointed out, the authors are suspect. One is tied to a drug company trying to sell IVM, and the lead has a history of promoting other ineffective and crank treatments.

As I commented, the hypebeast article title is absurd and indicative of poor writing and a weak argument, and the rest of the article followed suit.

There are three parts to the article.

1. Brief review of a couple animal studies, no explanation of relevancy, and underwhelming results:

"While viral load was not reduced [in infected golden hamsters], these improvements included one-third of the incidence of anosmia and sharp reductions in the Il-6/Il-10 ratio in lung tissue"

Sick hamsters got more sleep. Fantastic.

2. A review of other reviews.
Handwaving away the one that said IVM was not an effective treatment is wrong.

Here is the article in question. Please read. Far more professionally written, presentation of data and methods, and overall higher quality of logical conclusions.

"We found in our systematic review that, compared with SOC or placebo, IVM did not reduce primary outcomes (all-cause mortality rate, LOS, and AEs) or secondary outcomes (SARS-CoV-2 clearance in respiratory samples, and SAEs) in RCTs of patients with mostly mild COVID-19 disease.

...
However, theoretical considerations, experimental and observational evidence, misinformation, self-medication, and the wide availability of IVM led to its use as treatment of COVID-19 in low- and middle-income countries, assuming a priori efficacy and safety.
...

The use of IVM to treat COVID-19 has shown several limitations in management strategies: lack of transparency by some political leaders or media to support drug use without evidence of efficacy and safety; lack of leadership in implementing therapeutic science-based guidelines; and misuse of effective scientific communication [40, 41]. Similar issues were previously experienced with hydroxychloroquine and will probably be repeated with other repurposed drugs. Therefore, there is an urgent need to establish collaborative efforts among scientists, practitioners, communicators, and policy makers. A large, well-designed, and well-reported RCT provides the most reliable information on efficacy in the specific target population from which the sample was drawn. Well-designed and well-reported meta-analyses can provide valuable and confirmatory information [42].

IVM is generally safe at conventional doses for approved indications [4, 5]. However, its safety became a concern owing to longer use and/or higher doses in patients with COVID-19. IVM was found to be similar to placebo in safety and tolerability, even at 10 times the highest FDA-approved dose of 200 μg/kg in healthy volunteers [43], but not in patients with COVID-19. In addition, the use of IVM needs further analysis when IVM is combined with other agents for COVID-19 [44, 45]. In several settings, it was wrongly assumed that the potential benefits of using repurposed drugs outweigh their potential harms [46]. Well-designed RCTs with longer treatment and higher doses are necessary to further evaluate the safety of IVM in patients with COVID-19."

..
In the context of a misinformation infodemic, the dissemination of these results caused confusion for patients, clinicians (in particular those without training in critical reading of scientific literature), and decision makers, who may manipulate the information with political interests"

Pointing to some studies for prophylactic use, and excusing the very small sample size of the studies. Overall mixed results are discussed, but authors take most generous interpretation. These studies use low dose (similar to what is given for approved use of IVM.

Another review of "safety" of high dose IVM, since the treatment for covid infection is 50x the standard dose, but has not actually been formally studied for safety at that level.
Not highly convincing, since a good part of the article discusses a screw up of placebo and active drug for the Columbian study, but eh, its all ok in the end?!
The other article linked above discusses why this is a problem.

3. Bullshit "analysis" correlating change in Peruvian govt ( & restricting IVM) and a sharp increase in deaths

This section is where the article goes from poorly written and reasoned, to complete flaming pile of crap.

They correlate the rise in cases/deaths (which they decide to go around official data to get, and use excess deaths instead for reasons..) with a political change and change in IVM policies.

"After a restrictive IVM treatment policy was enacted under a new Peruvian president who took office on 17th November, however, deaths increased 13-fold over the two months following 1st December through 1st February 2021 (Fig. 1A). Potential confounding factors, including lockdowns and herd immunity, were ruled out using Google community mobility data, seropositivity rates, population densities and geographic distributions of SARS-CoV-2 genetic variations and by restricting all analysis except that for Fig. 1A to ages ≥ 60."

What about other explanations? That's quite a conclusion.

Oh, they just say they looked at other causes, and some data (show none of it) and just decide they are all irrelevant?!
Google mobility data? Really? That's part of your proof of efficacy? Holy shit

What about the outbreak of Lambda and Brazil P.1 variant also at that same exact time?!

No, def not a mutated variant, its because new President Dummy restricted IVM.

This review is published in Aug 21, yet their graph only goes to Feb 21.
Why?!

The third wave in Peru (like many other places) continued until its peak in April and has been on a long decline still today.

But no. Its def the IVM. If Peruvians only ate more horse paste...

This article is really bad. No wonder they needed to say "nobel prize" seven fuckin times in their horseshit article.

If this is the best IVM can come up with.. sad.

In fact, its so bad its hard to believe its written as a good faith article on IVM, and not a paper to publish at a respected URL to then be used by rubes to link and share on Facebook, reddit, 4chan et al before they rush off to the feed store.

So the WHO and NIH arent respected?

LMAO
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
If IVM is so effective, and actually a spike protein inhibitor, why not conduct an in vitro study on human cell lines, publish the mechanism and the supporting data?

Not that difficult to do. Let's do some actual science and not marketing material.

You mean like this? A five-day course of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19 may reduce the duration of illness - PubMed (nih.gov)

And pay attention to the related articles, one of which supports Joe Rogan's claim.

Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19 Infection: A Systematic Review, Meta-analysis, and Trial Sequential Analysis to Inform Clinical Guidelines (nih.gov)

Conclusions:
Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally.
 
Last edited:

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
@blackangst1

It would be nice if IVM actually has some utility, but articles like that should elicit skepticism and not excitement.

The alternative treatment advocates are pushing instead of vaccines, supposedly due to lack of safety data, but then advocating IVM in very high doses with no quality studies, poor controls, and lack of oversight is illogical and irresponsible.

The current treatment sounds like its a 50x dose with very little objective data to demonstrate efficacy and safety for patients seriously ill w. covid.

Let's see a real study with real controls, but get your vaccine in the meantime. Don't bank your health on charlatans and drug pushers.

I have my vaccine, but thanks for your faux concern.

If thats what you think the current treatment is, youve obviously not read the scientific studies, and blind trials. In other words, you have no idea what youre talking about. Do your own research using something other than Google, MSN, or Bing. And if a site is pushing the idea that OK hospitals are backed up with IVM overdoses, run away.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Which brings up the question why would someone take IVR over the vaccine? Easy answer. IVR is one of the most important and safest drugs available, with many human uses (see my WHO link above). Its been used off-label for many things successfully, now including covid (Ive already provided several links of double blind studies. If you want more, look yourself. Info is out there). The science of treating illnesses is all about off-label prescripting. Which IVR is. So...the choice is, take an off-label drug that so far clinically has shown promise and has been safely used in humans for 10+ years, , or take a vax less than 2 years old with no history. Thats the choice. Theres a reason so many medical professionals are refusing the vaccine.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Which brings up the question why would someone take IVR over the vaccine? Easy answer. IVR is one of the most important and safest drugs available, with many human uses (see my WHO link above). Its been used off-label for many things successfully, now including covid (Ive already provided several links of double blind studies. If you want more, look yourself. Info is out there). The science of treating illnesses is all about off-label prescripting. Which IVR is. So...the choice is, take an off-label drug that so far clinically has shown promise and has been safely used in humans for 10+ years, , or take a vax less than 2 years old with no history. Thats the choice. Theres a reason so many medical professionals are refusing the vaccine.

So you're arguing in favor of an unproven (but oh-so promising) therapeutic over proven effective prevention, right? First, get sick, then deal with it when you could have avoided getting sick altogether. And the bullshit fear mongering of uncertainty about vaccine safety. Remember all those people who were first in line last January? Doing fine & staying out of the hospital. Funny that. And if everybody who's vaxxed grows a third eye next to their butthole five years from now, I'm sure Ivermectin will fix that, too.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,274
19,767
136
So you're arguing in favor of an unproven (but oh-so promising) therapeutic over proven effective prevention, right? First, get sick, then deal with it when you could have avoided getting sick altogether. And the bullshit fear mongering of uncertainty about vaccine safety. Remember all those people who were first in line last January? Doing fine & staying out of the hospital. Funny that. And if everybody who's vaxxed grows a third eye next to their butthole five years from now, I'm sure Ivermectin will fix that, too.

Well but if they take invermectin orally while hopping on one foot and smoking hydrochlorquine at the same time, not only will it cure Covid, but any other ailment they have, including cancer
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,077
5,558
146
Or you could just take a free and safe vaccine and have mild symptoms or less.

That should be a given. The behavior that needs addressed is blackangst repeatedly posting things he knows are fucking stupid and bullshit, just to argue with people.
 

kitkat22

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2005
1,462
1,322
136
Just saying....


Estrogen appears to have a protective effect on covid too. Why aren't we discussing this as a treatment option?

Wonder if men will be raiding their SO birth control pills....🤔
 
Last edited:

kt

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2000
6,015
1,321
136
I have my vaccine, but thanks for your faux concern.

If thats what you think the current treatment is, youve obviously not read the scientific studies, and blind trials. In other words, you have no idea what youre talking about. Do your own research using something other than Google, MSN, or Bing. And if a site is pushing the idea that OK hospitals are backed up with IVM overdoses, run away.
Go ahead, take invermectin yourself and report back after attending a super spreader event.
 
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Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
Last edited:

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
Which brings up the question why would someone take IVR over the vaccine? Easy answer. IVR is one of the most important and safest drugs available, with many human uses (see my WHO link above). Its been used off-label for many things successfully, now including covid (Ive already provided several links of double blind studies. If you want more, look yourself. Info is out there). The science of treating illnesses is all about off-label prescripting. Which IVR is. So...the choice is, take an off-label drug that so far clinically has shown promise and has been safely used in humans for 10+ years, , or take a vax less than 2 years old with no history. Thats the choice. Theres a reason so many medical professionals are refusing the vaccine.

Ah yes, off label use of "miracle" drugs, supposedly safe as they've been around for decades, prescribed by unscrupulous doctors with little supporting data, drug companies cashing in on the new sales, what can go wrong?

Slippery Slope: Fen-Phen Users Recall a 'Miracle' Turned Nightmare

People died, others injured, class action lawsuit, Wyeth settling for $20B and leading itself to be sold to Pfizer.

Little action against doctors as FDA doesn't regulate off label use.


If the drug proves useful, great. Let's see that from a clinical trial.

That's not what's going on right now. Millions aren't vaccinated supposedly due to lack of data, safety, efficacy of the vaccine, or that it's some conspiracy to get them,.....but they are then putting faith in cranks, paper thin data, and a chance to "stick it" to the drug companies.

By buying drugs meant for livestock from drug companies.
 
Last edited:

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
Who is the largest veterinary medication producer in the USA?

Zoetis

Who owns the company?

Pfizer

Well, until they spun it off.

So I guess conservatives are sticking it to Pfizer and their vaccine by buying horse medication from their former subsidiary that's now owned by wall street institutions?

Yeah, stick it to The Man!
 
Last edited:

VW MAN

Senior member
Jun 27, 2020
677
861
96
Which brings up the question why would someone take IVR over the vaccine? Easy answer. IVR is one of the most important and safest drugs available, with many human uses (see my WHO link above). Its been used off-label for many things successfully, now including covid (Ive already provided several links of double blind studies. If you want more, look yourself. Info is out there). The science of treating illnesses is all about off-label prescripting. Which IVR is. So...the choice is, take an off-label drug that so far clinically has shown promise and has been safely used in humans for 10+ years, , or take a vax less than 2 years old with no history. Thats the choice. Theres a reason so many medical professionals are refusing the vaccine.
Dumbass!
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Antivax mowrons insist on doing this the hard way, and they've made it a feature of their stupid culture war. They made their sacred choice, and now they can't back away from it out of stubborn pride. Their minds were made up long ago. They've never been wrong about anything, and they'll tell you so.

We're already getting rationing of care in Idaho & I figure they won't be alone for long-

 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Ah yes, off label use of "miracle" drugs, supposedly safe as they've been around for decades, prescribed by unscrupulous doctors with little supporting data, drug companies cashing in on the new sales, what can go wrong?

Slippery Slope: Fen-Phen Users Recall a 'Miracle' Turned Nightmare

People died, others injured, class action lawsuit, Wyeth settling for $20B and leading itself to be sold to Pfizer.

Little action against doctors as FDA doesn't regulate off label use.


If the drug proves useful, great. Let's see that from a clinical trial.

That's not what's going on right now. Millions aren't vaccinated supposedly due to lack of data, safety, efficacy of the vaccine, or that it's some conspiracy to get them,.....but they are then putting faith in cranks, paper thin data, and a chance to "stick it" to the drug companies.

By buying drugs meant for livestock from drug companies.

Meant for livestock? You havent read the science lol. You have no idea what youre talking about. Read my links fool.