Court OKs Firing Over Confederate Flag

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LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
If it is permissable to burn the US flag or spit on it or any thing a protestor may wish to do because it is a symbol of the very freedom the destruction of it represents how much less can the symbol of states rights, a confederate flag, be? If it is meant to be a symbol of slavery that should be ok too if the person is free to be free in his absurd feelings. Perhaps if David Duke can run for congress or any other free person seek office with similar thoughts and they are laughed at so too the displayer of flags that to some indicate the horror of slavery but, understood by those who support strong state rights as a symbol of that.
Me thinks currently.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: HJD1
If it is permissable to burn the US flag or spit on it or any thing a protestor may wish to do because it is a symbol of the very freedom the destruction of it represents how much less can the symbol of states rights, a confederate flag, be? If it is meant to be a symbol of slavery that should be ok too if the person is free to be free in his absurd feelings. Perhaps if David Duke can run for congress or any other free person seek office with similar thoughts and they are laughed at so to the displayer of flags that to some indicate the horror of slavery but, understood by those who support strong state rights as a symbol of that.
Me thinks currently.

just like the dixie chicks he is free from gov't persecution/prosecution for displaying his beliefs but he is not free from what the rest of society thinks
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: HJD1
If it is permissable to burn the US flag or spit on it or any thing a protestor may wish to do because it is a symbol of the very freedom the destruction of it represents how much less can the symbol of states rights, a confederate flag, be? If it is meant to be a symbol of slavery that should be ok too if the person is free to be free in his absurd feelings. Perhaps if David Duke can run for congress or any other free person seek office with similar thoughts and they are laughed at so too the displayer of flags that to some indicate the horror of slavery but, understood by those who support strong state rights as a symbol of that.
Me thinks currently.

just like the dixie chicks he is free from gov't persecution/prosecution for displaying his beliefs but he is not free from what the rest of society thinks

Yup! It's ok to do it and it's ok for me to poo poo it.

 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I went to a military college that fought for the Confederacy and had 10 cadets killed in action or as a result of wounds received in action. If I display the Confederate battle flag, I would construe it as a tribute to those who fell in battle while marching under that very flag. It's not a political message; it's a memorial to fallen soldiers who died on American soil. Would that be acceptable from the "intent" perspective? (Where, on an Air Force base in Japan? I think the military might object. You're not serving the Confederacy.)

Obviously, I was speaking from the perspective of a civilian in a job such as the subject here (or perhaps not obviously!). Since I am in the military, my rights are curtailed compared to the average American, and as an officer, my expressive rights are curtailed even more.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,812
6,777
126
Well Andrew, it would be OK with me but I would think they would be more honored under an American Flag, but that's just an opinion.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Well Andrew, it would be OK with me but I would think they would be more honored under an American Flag, but that's just an opinion.

Well... when they flew the US Flag in Iraq the Iraqi folks didn't take too kindly to it so you may have a point. Even though a US protectorite and all.

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We should have replaced the statue of Saddam with one of Uncle Sam. :D


Sam's Hard ware Inc.
Oh.. you mean George Washington... the one who didn't lie.;)
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Well Andrew, it would be OK with me but I would think they would be more honored under an American Flag, but that's just an opinion.

I don't actually go around waving a Confederate flag, though I used to have it on my class ring which I subsequently lost a couple years ago. The point is that they didn't fight under the American flag, especially the modern one. The reason why those cadets, and the entire cadet corps which fought at the Battle of New Market, are honored is because they trained as soldiers, were called to arms by their state, and fought well as soldiers on the field of battle with the battleflag as their guide. It is about "duty, honor, country" and not slavery, but some people refuse to understand that.

Why would a dirt poor illiterate farmer go off to fight for the Confederacy if the war had been fought over slavery since that dirt poor farmer would never be in a position to own a slave or even benefit from slaves in any way? He goes off to die so the local wealthy landowner can earn more money and maintain his plantation lifestyle? Doesn't make sense to me.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Well Andrew, it would be OK with me but I would think they would be more honored under an American Flag, but that's just an opinion.

I don't actually go around waving a Confederate flag, though I used to have it on my class ring which I subsequently lost a couple years ago. The point is that they didn't fight under the American flag, especially the modern one. The reason why those cadets, and the entire cadet corps which fought at the Battle of New Market, are honored is because they trained as soldiers, were called to arms by their state, and fought well as soldiers on the field of battle with the battleflag as their guide. It is about "duty, honor, country" and not slavery, but some people refuse to understand that.

Why would a dirt poor illiterate farmer go off to fight for the Confederacy if the war had been fought over slavery since that dirt poor farmer would never be in a position to own a slave or even benefit from slaves in any way? He goes off to die so the local wealthy landowner can earn more money and maintain his plantation lifestyle? Doesn't make sense to me.

mystified by the capitalist elite...
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,812
6,777
126
Going off to die never made sense to me. There is no duty, there is no honor, there is no country. I don't object to defending yourself against the insanity of others when that insanity is about to kill you and yours. In such a case one may have to become a killing machine, but who would have room for any other conception than the complete and total focus on the distruction of the enemy, and an immediate return to the normal the moment that goal and the threat was ended. The ceramony, the metals, the honor, the burial with flag, what's with that? You would either be dead or alive. If alive, what could be better than that?
 

Chobits

Senior member
May 12, 2003
230
0
0
The Civil War had little to do with Slavery. State's rights my friend.


Not necessarily. The intial rift was between states and federal rights and this is seen as early as the convention to create a ratify the constitution where those in the North favored a strong National Government (Federalists) while the Anti-Federalists, including Thomas Jefferson [to think a man of his calibur would be arguing for slavery toward the end of his life], were concentrated more in the South. Even look at some of the most prominent writings of the time - the Virginia and Kentuky Resolutions basically screamed "We love state's rights"

Sure of course there were issues that didn't deal with state's rights that went to the courts (and considering John Marhshall was the justice the Federal Government always won. Go Marshall Go!) but the issue that nagged the most was SLAVERY. I'm not saying that the North, or even a lot of abolishonists were not racist (quite the contrary they were! Very few abolishonists were like William Lloyd Garrison) but they realized that slavery was holding back the south from an economic perspective and the North was advancing and building things everywhere (The fact that the North had a super super majority of the Railroads helped it) while the south was stuck in this self defeating pattern thanks to Eli.


Look at legislation/rulings/bills/laws/whatever from the time period. The most important/ most talked about (sorry if I can't draw more specific examples. Its been a year since I've really studied US History) dealt with slavery. The Missouri Compromise, Fugitive Slave Law (where the North chose not to adhere to Federal Laws), Dred Scott Case, Uncle Toms Cabin, the Republic of Texas, Bleeding Kansas, and more highlighted the time period. Also during this time the South was on its cotton high exporting millions of tons of cotton (which proved to hurt itself in the longrun as once war started places in Britian had huge surplus of cotton that workers for a while didn't have to worry about losing their jobs. That and they would rather lose cotton than wheat from the breadbasket of the north) which further ingrained slavery into their society

In order to protect slavery the South maintained its position that it was state's rights and even went as far as creating an image that a slave in the south was much happier resting and fishing on the banks of a river thant it would be in the north earning subsistence wages (the key would be in the North they were free and were actually paid money. If they chose they could leave. True most lived with menial paying positions but at least they had the option to leave and that in itself is a huge principal) and they began to spew their crap.

With the beginning of the civil war with the attack on Sumter the South IMMEDIATELY lay their cause behind the State's Rights issue. By doing this it would make their cause seem palpable so that they could attract help from European Nations. If they could just stay on their turf and get help they were absolutely fine (though even had they won chances are they would have quickly fallen apart as internal strife was already building up)

Lincoln, a sympathizer to the "cause", knew NOT to intially make the issue over slavery because as states ceded he needs those on the Ohio river - kentucky, tennesee, maryland becuase they were key states and had he immediately declared the war as a war on slavery they would've also ceded. He even said something to the effect of, "If I could free the slaves and save the Union I would. If I could keep slavery as is and save the Union I would" to show in the beginning that his trump was the Union (this is also when the USA began to be refferred as "That IS the USA" not "They ARE the USA") By the time of the Emanciptation the North got the victory it wanted (well...somehwat wanteD) and Lincoln made the smartest move he coud -he issued the emancipation proclamation. While it is true that it freed slaves only in rebellious states the key factor is that by issuing that he made sure that the war was a war on slavery; Southern States were hiding their true cause behind the veil of State's rights. True there is merit to that but most of the complaints lead to the establishment of slavery. By doing this he cuts off any European support they MIGHT have gotten (they got some British help) because in Europe by now Slavery was dead and no leader of a European country wanted to be seen as interveneing on the side of slavery.

After the war ended the next three amendments, 13th (which banned slavery...ironically though before the break of the war there was a revision that would keep slavery but not allow it to expand) 14th and 15th delt specifically with slavery and the black man further enforcing the idea that the war was a war over slavery.

The rest as they say, is history.


Let me repeat one more time: The South used the idea of State's rights in order to maintain slavery which was their key goal. They did complain over other issues and very vocally but if you study what was going on much of it revolved around slavery.

Hell I have a friend who was in Georgia during her 10th grade year and it seems they don't study US History there...they study "State History"

Thank god slavery is gone, and I would easily vote in favor of the employer.

Though I never understood with the longing desire of the "old [racist] south" and stuff such as Civil War Re-enactments.

Kiss it goodbye. The issue of state's rights is LONG dead and it will never ever be a factor anymore. If you cannot realize that you are a person in need of great help
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Amused
The employer was within his rights. It is his workplace, and the employee must abide by the rules.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Going off to die never made sense to me. There is no duty, there is no honor, there is no country. I don't object to defending yourself against the insanity of others when that insanity is about to kill you and yours. In such a case one may have to become a killing machine, but who would have room for any other conception than the complete and total focus on the distruction of the enemy, and an immediate return to the normal the moment that goal and the threat was ended. The ceramony, the metals, the honor, the burial with flag, what's with that? You would either be dead or alive. If alive, what could be better than that?
"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his." - Patton
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,812
6,777
126
Yes, Vic, you see how Patton was one step removed from reality.

"The object of war is to kill if someone tries to kill you."
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,461
4
81
Originally posted by: Chobits
The Civil War had little to do with Slavery. State's rights my friend.


Not necessarily. The intial rift was between states and federal rights and this is seen as early as the convention to create a ratify the constitution where those in the North favored a strong National Government (Federalists) while the Anti-Federalists, including Thomas Jefferson [to think a man of his calibur would be arguing for slavery toward the end of his life], were concentrated more in the South. Even look at some of the most prominent writings of the time - the Virginia and Kentuky Resolutions basically screamed "We love state's rights"

Kiss it goodbye. The issue of state's rights is LONG dead and it will never ever be a factor anymore. If you cannot realize that you are a person in need of great help


So if old Jefferson Davis said that we would abolish slavery because it is evil but we are still going to secede from you guys because we are tired of your ill treatment....old Abe would have said ok?

Can I have some of the crack that you appear to be smoking?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Chobits
The Civil War had little to do with Slavery. State's rights my friend.


Not necessarily. The intial rift was between states and federal rights and this is seen as early as the convention to create a ratify the constitution where those in the North favored a strong National Government (Federalists) while the Anti-Federalists, including Thomas Jefferson [to think a man of his calibur would be arguing for slavery toward the end of his life], were concentrated more in the South. Even look at some of the most prominent writings of the time - the Virginia and Kentuky Resolutions basically screamed "We love state's rights"

Sure of course there were issues that didn't deal with state's rights that went to the courts (and considering John Marhshall was the justice the Federal Government always won. Go Marshall Go!) but the issue that nagged the most was SLAVERY. I'm not saying that the North, or even a lot of abolishonists were not racist (quite the contrary they were! Very few abolishonists were like William Lloyd Garrison) but they realized that slavery was holding back the south from an economic perspective and the North was advancing and building things everywhere (The fact that the North had a super super majority of the Railroads helped it) while the south was stuck in this self defeating pattern thanks to Eli.


Look at legislation/rulings/bills/laws/whatever from the time period. The most important/ most talked about (sorry if I can't draw more specific examples. Its been a year since I've really studied US History) dealt with slavery. The Missouri Compromise, Fugitive Slave Law (where the North chose not to adhere to Federal Laws), Dred Scott Case, Uncle Toms Cabin, the Republic of Texas, Bleeding Kansas, and more highlighted the time period. Also during this time the South was on its cotton high exporting millions of tons of cotton (which proved to hurt itself in the longrun as once war started places in Britian had huge surplus of cotton that workers for a while didn't have to worry about losing their jobs. That and they would rather lose cotton than wheat from the breadbasket of the north) which further ingrained slavery into their society

In order to protect slavery the South maintained its position that it was state's rights and even went as far as creating an image that a slave in the south was much happier resting and fishing on the banks of a river thant it would be in the north earning subsistence wages (the key would be in the North they were free and were actually paid money. If they chose they could leave. True most lived with menial paying positions but at least they had the option to leave and that in itself is a huge principal) and they began to spew their crap.

With the beginning of the civil war with the attack on Sumter the South IMMEDIATELY lay their cause behind the State's Rights issue. By doing this it would make their cause seem palpable so that they could attract help from European Nations. If they could just stay on their turf and get help they were absolutely fine (though even had they won chances are they would have quickly fallen apart as internal strife was already building up)

Lincoln, a sympathizer to the "cause", knew NOT to intially make the issue over slavery because as states ceded he needs those on the Ohio river - kentucky, tennesee, maryland becuase they were key states and had he immediately declared the war as a war on slavery they would've also ceded. He even said something to the effect of, "If I could free the slaves and save the Union I would. If I could keep slavery as is and save the Union I would" to show in the beginning that his trump was the Union (this is also when the USA began to be refferred as "That IS the USA" not "They ARE the USA") By the time of the Emanciptation the North got the victory it wanted (well...somehwat wanteD) and Lincoln made the smartest move he coud -he issued the emancipation proclamation. While it is true that it freed slaves only in rebellious states the key factor is that by issuing that he made sure that the war was a war on slavery; Southern States were hiding their true cause behind the veil of State's rights. True there is merit to that but most of the complaints lead to the establishment of slavery. By doing this he cuts off any European support they MIGHT have gotten (they got some British help) because in Europe by now Slavery was dead and no leader of a European country wanted to be seen as interveneing on the side of slavery.

After the war ended the next three amendments, 13th (which banned slavery...ironically though before the break of the war there was a revision that would keep slavery but not allow it to expand) 14th and 15th delt specifically with slavery and the black man further enforcing the idea that the war was a war over slavery.

The rest as they say, is history.


Let me repeat one more time: The South used the idea of State's rights in order to maintain slavery which was their key goal. They did complain over other issues and very vocally but if you study what was going on much of it revolved around slavery.

Hell I have a friend who was in Georgia during her 10th grade year and it seems they don't study US History there...they study "State History"

Thank god slavery is gone, and I would easily vote in favor of the employer.

Though I never understood with the longing desire of the "old [racist] south" and stuff such as Civil War Re-enactments.

Kiss it goodbye. The issue of state's rights is LONG dead and it will never ever be a factor anymore. If you cannot realize that you are a person in need of great help

hahahaha I needed the laugh. Thanks!
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: AndrewR


I don't actually go around waving a Confederate flag, though I used to have it on my class ring which I subsequently lost a couple years ago. The point is that they didn't fight under the American flag, especially the modern one.

What about all of the graduates of your military academy who have died in battle since then? They died under the American flag. :) I suppose you have plenty of American flags flying there though. I think a plaque or some sort of memorial would be a better tribute to those cadets who died fighting for the confederacy, because then it wouldn't be subject to interpretation. :)
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Thoughts?

The dairy company is a private entity, if the mechanic doesn't like it, he can go to another job that allows him to display the confederate flag.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: Chobits
The Civil War had little to do with Slavery. State's rights my friend.


Not necessarily. The intial rift was between states and federal rights and this is seen as early as the convention to create a ratify the constitution where those in the North favored a strong National Government (Federalists) while the Anti-Federalists, including Thomas Jefferson [to think a man of his calibur would be arguing for slavery toward the end of his life], were concentrated more in the South. Even look at some of the most prominent writings of the time - the Virginia and Kentuky Resolutions basically screamed "We love state's rights"

Sure of course there were issues that didn't deal with state's rights that went to the courts (and considering John Marhshall was the justice the Federal Government always won. Go Marshall Go!) but the issue that nagged the most was SLAVERY. I'm not saying that the North, or even a lot of abolishonists were not racist (quite the contrary they were! Very few abolishonists were like William Lloyd Garrison) but they realized that slavery was holding back the south from an economic perspective and the North was advancing and building things everywhere (The fact that the North had a super super majority of the Railroads helped it) while the south was stuck in this self defeating pattern thanks to Eli.


Look at legislation/rulings/bills/laws/whatever from the time period. The most important/ most talked about (sorry if I can't draw more specific examples. Its been a year since I've really studied US History) dealt with slavery. The Missouri Compromise, Fugitive Slave Law (where the North chose not to adhere to Federal Laws), Dred Scott Case, Uncle Toms Cabin, the Republic of Texas, Bleeding Kansas, and more highlighted the time period. Also during this time the South was on its cotton high exporting millions of tons of cotton (which proved to hurt itself in the longrun as once war started places in Britian had huge surplus of cotton that workers for a while didn't have to worry about losing their jobs. That and they would rather lose cotton than wheat from the breadbasket of the north) which further ingrained slavery into their society

In order to protect slavery the South maintained its position that it was state's rights and even went as far as creating an image that a slave in the south was much happier resting and fishing on the banks of a river thant it would be in the north earning subsistence wages (the key would be in the North they were free and were actually paid money. If they chose they could leave. True most lived with menial paying positions but at least they had the option to leave and that in itself is a huge principal) and they began to spew their crap.

With the beginning of the civil war with the attack on Sumter the South IMMEDIATELY lay their cause behind the State's Rights issue. By doing this it would make their cause seem palpable so that they could attract help from European Nations. If they could just stay on their turf and get help they were absolutely fine (though even had they won chances are they would have quickly fallen apart as internal strife was already building up)

Lincoln, a sympathizer to the "cause", knew NOT to intially make the issue over slavery because as states ceded he needs those on the Ohio river - kentucky, tennesee, maryland becuase they were key states and had he immediately declared the war as a war on slavery they would've also ceded. He even said something to the effect of, "If I could free the slaves and save the Union I would. If I could keep slavery as is and save the Union I would" to show in the beginning that his trump was the Union (this is also when the USA began to be refferred as "That IS the USA" not "They ARE the USA") By the time of the Emanciptation the North got the victory it wanted (well...somehwat wanteD) and Lincoln made the smartest move he coud -he issued the emancipation proclamation. While it is true that it freed slaves only in rebellious states the key factor is that by issuing that he made sure that the war was a war on slavery; Southern States were hiding their true cause behind the veil of State's rights. True there is merit to that but most of the complaints lead to the establishment of slavery. By doing this he cuts off any European support they MIGHT have gotten (they got some British help) because in Europe by now Slavery was dead and no leader of a European country wanted to be seen as interveneing on the side of slavery.

After the war ended the next three amendments, 13th (which banned slavery...ironically though before the break of the war there was a revision that would keep slavery but not allow it to expand) 14th and 15th delt specifically with slavery and the black man further enforcing the idea that the war was a war over slavery.

The rest as they say, is history.


Let me repeat one more time: The South used the idea of State's rights in order to maintain slavery which was their key goal. They did complain over other issues and very vocally but if you study what was going on much of it revolved around slavery.

Hell I have a friend who was in Georgia during her 10th grade year and it seems they don't study US History there...they study "State History"

Thank god slavery is gone, and I would easily vote in favor of the employer.

Though I never understood with the longing desire of the "old [racist] south" and stuff such as Civil War Re-enactments.

Kiss it goodbye. The issue of state's rights is LONG dead and it will never ever be a factor anymore. If you cannot realize that you are a person in need of great help


couldn't have said it better. southerners and their revisionist history :p

just read letters written by the top confeds, what they say about slavery... not good for the "states rights" people.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: mugsywwiii
Originally posted by: AndrewR

I don't actually go around waving a Confederate flag, though I used to have it on my class ring which I subsequently lost a couple years ago. The point is that they didn't fight under the American flag, especially the modern one.

What about all of the graduates of your military academy who have died in battle since then? They died under the American flag. :) I suppose you have plenty of American flags flying there though. I think a plaque or some sort of memorial would be a better tribute to those cadets who died fighting for the confederacy, because then it wouldn't be subject to interpretation. :)

The graduates or former cadets who have died since the Civil War are suitably honored for their sacrifices, but the cadets who died as cadets have a special distinction. The Corps of Cadet at VMI is the only student body to ever fight as a unit on American soil. From a military school perspective, that's huge, and even if people such as Moonbeam don't understand what standing up for your beliefs means, that's fine, though there are others who have so that he could enjoy the freedoms he has right now. Those cadets are honored with a statue entitled Virginia Mourning Her Dead which is located along with six graves on the VMI post.

No Confederate flags are used in the yearly ceremony which commemorates the day of the battle, May 15. Even if they were, however, I don't buy into the "eyes of the beholder" argument simply because people should be judged on intent, not perception. If we applied that principle everywhere, there would be no such thing as justifiable homicide or consensual sex.

Going off to die never made sense to me.

Few people ever go off to die -- they go off to fight. Afterwards, when they don't return, you can say that they went off to die. It's a retroactive description.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,812
6,777
126
M: Going off to die never made sense to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A: Few people ever go off to die -- they go off to fight. Afterwards, when they don't return, you can say that they went off to die. It's a retroactive description.
-----------------
I was just using your words: "He [goes off to die] so the local wealthy landowner can earn more money and maintain his plantation lifestyle? Doesn't make sense to me."
 

przero

Platinum Member
Dec 30, 2000
2,060
0
0
We assume this black man was truly antagonized by this display of "Slavery's Symbol". but suppose for just a moment that he was the racist here and hated this "white" guy. Backed by any number of "do-gooder" groups he marches off to court, assured, in this sadly PC society we live in, of victory. Now the "white" guy, a noble "son of the confederacy", is left without a job. You people forget there are AS MANY black racist today as white!!!