Could it happen here?

[techs]

I was watching the History Channel last night and they had a series of shows on Hitlers SS.
I got to thinking how quickly and easily the American people supported the largest government limitation of civil liberties ever after 9-11. Then I looked at the lawlessness after Katrina. I then looked at the precarious state of our countries economy.
And I got to wondering if some unforseen event, like massive rioting in China, which would severly interrupt the flow of money the Chinese are sending us to prop up our economy were to happen, or if terrorists managed to set off a nuke or large drity bomb in the US, would our society break down to German pre-war levels? How long would it take for Americans to look for a "strong" leader who promised an end to rioting in our streets or a massive effort to hunt down any 'dangerous' elements of American society?
And once we elected this 'strong' leader and his political party would we stand by as they passed laws to give them absolute political domination by limiting say, voting, to ensure their stranglehold on the government?
Just wondering.

 

[ntdz]

No.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: ntdz
No.

 

[Darkhawk28]

I won't say "no", because given enough fear in society, the choice between personal freedoms and "safety" usually becomes clear.

Now whether that would ever happen, I will say... "Don't know. Hope not."

 

[dmcowen674]

No doubt about it, just look at how the sheeple stand behind Bush when not under such extreme duress, unless you call ministers drilling you duress.

 

[Czar]

yes

the change is slow and people will not realise it and when they are gone to far they wont recognize it as it wont be abnormal to them

 

[CellarDoor]

Answering the question with "no" is exactly how this would come to be IMO. It is our duty to question authority and our government to make sure they are acting in our best interests at all times.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: techs
I was watching the History Channel last night and they had a series of shows on Hitlers SS.
I got to thinking how quickly and easily the American people supported the largest government limitation of civil liberties ever after 9-11. Then I looked at the lawlessness after Katrina. I then looked at the precarious state of our countries economy.
And I got to wondering if some unforseen event, like massive rioting in China, which would severly interrupt the flow of money the Chinese are sending us to prop up our economy were to happen, or if terrorists managed to set off a nuke or large drity bomb in the US, would our society break down to German pre-war levels? How long would it take for Americans to look for a "strong" leader who promised an end to rioting in our streets or a massive effort to hunt down any 'dangerous' elements of American society?
And once we elected this 'strong' leader and his political party would we stand by as they passed laws to give them absolute political domination by limiting say, voting, to ensure their stranglehold on the government?
Just wondering.

No.

And the largest limitation of civil liberties after 9/11? Where do you get that?

The Civil War saw the most severe liberty violations... even WWII saw much worse.

We've been through a revolution, a civil war, a depression, a world war.... our people are good, Constitution strong, and ideals intact.

But it never hurts to always ask "what if?"

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I won't say "no", because given enough fear in society, the choice between personal freedoms and "safety" usually becomes clear.

Now whether that would ever happen, I will say... "Don't know. Hope not."

The tradeoff is never between YOUR personal freedoms and "safety", situations like this almost always result in someone else giving up their personal freedoms for your safety. Look at the 9/11 aftermath, I don't know how many times I've heard people support the "changes" because "I have nothing to be afraid of". That's great, I'm sure those it DOES affect are comforted by that. People are big fans of things like the no-fly list, as long as they aren't the innocent Americans being kept off the plane. Look at how some people suggest tightening up airport and subway security..."target the Muslims". Is this ethical? Doesn't seem like it, but hey, it's not ME that will be targetted. In fact, I'll be put through LESS hassle. A leader trying to take advantage of a bad situation won't make it a personal freedom vs security trade-off, at least not obviously. It will always be about targetting the "bad guys" while the majority isn't really affected. That's what happened in Germany, right?

Another factor not in our favor in particular is, like some other countries I'm not going to name, at least a majority of Americans put too much (IMHO) trust in the government. If the President tells us something is so, I think at least a small majority of Americans will blindly believe it. And if we are under some sort of threat, that number will skyrocket. I don't know why, but we seem to have lost a healthy mistrust of the government...something I think is critical to preventing this sort of thing.

But...all it takes to avoid this sort of terrible thing is for people to care as much about other people as about themselves. People not saying "torture him, as long as it makes me safer". While some might think this is less likely under extreme conditions, I think it is very possible that some bad thing as described in the OP would bring out the best in Americans. Call it an irrational faith in our people, but I really believe that we all understand what this country is about, even if some of us have forgotten it. I think a bad event, if it goes far enough, might remind some of us...

Also...not to nitpick, but WE send a lot of money to China...not the other way around. We buy a ton of their products, that's why we have a trade defecit. We need those goods as well of course, but as Tom Clancy pointed out, we can buy from other places...but there is only one America to sell to.

 

[techs]

No.

And the largest limitation of civil liberties after 9/11? Where do you get that?

The Civil War saw the most severe liberty violations... even WWII saw much worse.We've been through a revolution, a civil war, a depression, a world war.... our people are good, Constitution strong, and ideals intact.

But it never hurts to always ask "what if?"

both the civil war and ww2 were time limited. Now we are facing war without end. Will the threat of terrorism ever be anything than "elevated"?
Sort of like the Nuremberg laws. Until we kill every last jew the nation is endangered(as per the Nazis). Well the difference here is we cannot even begin, despite our power, to roundup every last terrorist. Not to mention new ones are created every day.
In fact hasn't the time since 9-11 already exceeded the length of ww2 and the Civil War?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: techs

No.

And the largest limitation of civil liberties after 9/11? Where do you get that?

The Civil War saw the most severe liberty violations... even WWII saw much worse.We've been through a revolution, a civil war, a depression, a world war.... our people are good, Constitution strong, and ideals intact.

But it never hurts to always ask "what if?"

both the civil war and ww2 were time limited. Now we are facing war without end. Will the threat of terrorism ever be anything than "elevated"?
Sort of like the Nuremberg laws. Until we kill every last jew the nation is endangered(as per the Nazis). Well the difference here is we cannot even begin, despite our power, to roundup every last terrorist. Not to mention new ones are created every day.
In fact hasn't the time since 9-11 already exceeded the length of ww2 and the Civil War?

Except I think people are getting tired of the war without end concept. I predict the next Presidential election will have a strong focus on ENDING the war on terror in a good way. Even looking at the 2004 election, being a "war president" helped Bush less than it has any other President in history. Americans only tolerate things like this for so long, and at least to me I think people are starting to ask some questions.

 

[miketheidiot]

don't fool yourselves, it could happen to any country.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
don't fool yourselves, it could happen to any country.

But it's a Country of fools, a forest can not see the other forest through the trees.

 

[judasmachine]

it can happen anywhere where people are down and out and want something to believe in, and a madman gives it to them.

you people who have flatly answered "NO" apparently feel the government only does honest stuff, and you need to wake up. is bush hitler? no, of course not, but it could still happen, especially where people are so complacent. keep your eyes open, it's your duty as an american citizen.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
it can happen anywhere where people are down and out and want something to believe in, and a madman gives it to them.

BFT

Just look at Bush

 

[ShadesOfGrey]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: techs
I was watching the History Channel last night and they had a series of shows on Hitlers SS.
I got to thinking how quickly and easily the American people supported the largest government limitation of civil liberties ever after 9-11. Then I looked at the lawlessness after Katrina. I then looked at the precarious state of our countries economy.
And I got to wondering if some unforseen event, like massive rioting in China, which would severly interrupt the flow of money the Chinese are sending us to prop up our economy were to happen, or if terrorists managed to set off a nuke or large drity bomb in the US, would our society break down to German pre-war levels? How long would it take for Americans to look for a "strong" leader who promised an end to rioting in our streets or a massive effort to hunt down any 'dangerous' elements of American society?
And once we elected this 'strong' leader and his political party would we stand by as they passed laws to give them absolute political domination by limiting say, voting, to ensure their stranglehold on the government?
Just wondering.

No.

And the largest limitation of civil liberties after 9/11? Where do you get that?

The Civil War saw the most severe liberty violations... even WWII saw much worse.

We've been through a revolution, a civil war, a depression, a world war.... our people are good, Constitution strong, and ideals intact.

But it never hurts to always ask "what if?"

:thumbsup:
I concur.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: techs
I was watching the History Channel last night and they had a series of shows on Hitlers SS.
I got to thinking how quickly and easily the American people supported the largest government limitation of civil liberties ever after 9-11. Then I looked at the lawlessness after Katrina. I then looked at the precarious state of our countries economy.
And I got to wondering if some unforseen event, like massive rioting in China, which would severly interrupt the flow of money the Chinese are sending us to prop up our economy were to happen, or if terrorists managed to set off a nuke or large drity bomb in the US, would our society break down to German pre-war levels? How long would it take for Americans to look for a "strong" leader who promised an end to rioting in our streets or a massive effort to hunt down any 'dangerous' elements of American society?
And once we elected this 'strong' leader and his political party would we stand by as they passed laws to give them absolute political domination by limiting say, voting, to ensure their stranglehold on the government?
Just wondering.

No.

And the largest limitation of civil liberties after 9/11? Where do you get that?

The Civil War saw the most severe liberty violations... even WWII saw much worse.

We've been through a revolution, a civil war, a depression, a world war.... our people are good, Constitution strong, and ideals intact.

But it never hurts to always ask "what if?"

:thumbsup:
I concur.

I guess you missed this reply I made:
both the civil war and ww2 were time limited. Now we are facing war without end. Will the threat of terrorism ever be anything than "elevated"?
Sort of like the Nuremberg laws. Until we kill every last jew the nation is endangered(as per the Nazis). Well the difference here is we cannot even begin, despite our power, to roundup every last terrorist. Not to mention new ones are created every day.
In fact hasn't the time since 9-11 already exceeded the length of ww2 and the Civil War?
these are not laws made for a time limited emergency. they are the policy of the neo-cons which used 9-11 as a cover to put in place.
I am certain the day after the next terrorist attack (and eventually there will be one) the "emergency laws" will be made permanent.

 

[sandorski]

Yes. It can happen anywhere. I think Nazi Germany is a fine example of just how far a society will go given the correct circumstances as most Germans were oblivious to the consequences until the very end. When the truth came out they were truly shocked and ashamed of just how far they allowed their leaders to take things.

The problem here is that all people consider themselves Moral and Righteous and will justify their actions as Moral and Righteous. If one thinks they can not be Immoral or Unrighteous, then that person(s) will not question themselves, for why should they? They are incapable of being Immoral or Unrighteous!

Only the Self-Critical and those who Judge their own Actions can avoid such pitfalls.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
it can happen anywhere where people are down and out and want something to believe in, and a madman gives it to them.

you people who have flatly answered "NO" apparently feel the government only does honest stuff, and you need to wake up. is bush hitler? no, of course not, but it could still happen, especially where people are so complacent. keep your eyes open, it's your duty as an american citizen.

Well if you read my post, it's not so much that I trust the government (in fact I don't to that extent) it's that I trust the people...at least more so than I would in almost any other country.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
don't fool yourselves, it could happen to any country.

But it's a Country of fools, a forest can not see the other forest through the trees.

The metaphor is begging for mercy, man.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
don't fool yourselves, it could happen to any country.

But it's a Country of fools, a forest can not see the other forest through the trees.

The metaphor is begging for mercy, man.

At least he didn't include the part with the bear sh*tting. :laugh:

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: judasmachine
it can happen anywhere where people are down and out and want something to believe in, and a madman gives it to them.

you people who have flatly answered "NO" apparently feel the government only does honest stuff, and you need to wake up. is bush hitler? no, of course not, but it could still happen, especially where people are so complacent. keep your eyes open, it's your duty as an american citizen.

Well if you read my post, it's not so much that I trust the government (in fact I don't to that extent) it's that I trust the people...at least more so than I would in almost any other country.

all i'm saying is be careful. have faith in a god (whichever you like), not a man. if you must have faith, have faith in your mother, or brother. hell even check them out once in a while.

 

[Jhhnn]

All you have to do is think about the number of people who support the detention of Jose Padilla and the pens at Gitmo to understand that, yes, it can happen here...

It happens when enough people are convinced that the situation is too grave for common decency and the rule of law to function, and that "Strong Leaders" have the answer... Herman Goering knew it well, and those who perpetrated the waves of fear and hysteria in the wake of 9/11 know it, too. They just didn't have a sufficiently difficult situation to take it all the way to a police state... but they've laid the foundations with the Patriot act, and with the public acceptance of the situations mentioned above.

They played up 9/11 as if it were the biggest catastrophe since the Civil War, when the impact was mostly emotional, anyway. Katrina and now Rita close behind are really much more far reaching and difficult to deal with than a few pissant terrorists going out in a blaze of glory... with the latter, there's just somebody to blame, and a sense of public outrage that's easy to exploit...

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
All you have to do is think about the number of people who support the detention of Jose Padilla and the pens at Gitmo to understand that, yes, it can happen here...

It happens when enough people are convinced that the situation is too grave for common decency and the rule of law to function, and that "Strong Leaders" have the answer... Herman Goering knew it well, and those who perpetrated the waves of fear and hysteria in the wake of 9/11 know it, too. They just didn't have a sufficiently difficult situation to take it all the way to a police state... but they've laid the foundations with the Patriot act, and with the public acceptance of the situations mentioned above.

They played up 9/11 as if it were the biggest catastrophe since the Civil War, when the impact was mostly emotional, anyway. Katrina and now Rita close behind are really much more far reaching and difficult to deal with than a few pissant terrorists going out in a blaze of glory... with the latter, there's just somebody to blame, and a sense of public outrage that's easy to exploit...

Wow. Very well put.

 

[ShadesOfGrey]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: techs
I was watching the History Channel last night and they had a series of shows on Hitlers SS.
I got to thinking how quickly and easily the American people supported the largest government limitation of civil liberties ever after 9-11. Then I looked at the lawlessness after Katrina. I then looked at the precarious state of our countries economy.
And I got to wondering if some unforseen event, like massive rioting in China, which would severly interrupt the flow of money the Chinese are sending us to prop up our economy were to happen, or if terrorists managed to set off a nuke or large drity bomb in the US, would our society break down to German pre-war levels? How long would it take for Americans to look for a "strong" leader who promised an end to rioting in our streets or a massive effort to hunt down any 'dangerous' elements of American society?
And once we elected this 'strong' leader and his political party would we stand by as they passed laws to give them absolute political domination by limiting say, voting, to ensure their stranglehold on the government?
Just wondering.

No.

And the largest limitation of civil liberties after 9/11? Where do you get that?

The Civil War saw the most severe liberty violations... even WWII saw much worse.

We've been through a revolution, a civil war, a depression, a world war.... our people are good, Constitution strong, and ideals intact.

But it never hurts to always ask "what if?"

:thumbsup:
I concur.

I guess you missed this reply I made:
both the civil war and ww2 were time limited. Now we are facing war without end. Will the threat of terrorism ever be anything than "elevated"?
Sort of like the Nuremberg laws. Until we kill every last jew the nation is endangered(as per the Nazis). Well the difference here is we cannot even begin, despite our power, to roundup every last terrorist. Not to mention new ones are created every day.
In fact hasn't the time since 9-11 already exceeded the length of ww2 and the Civil War?
these are not laws made for a time limited emergency. they are the policy of the neo-cons which used 9-11 as a cover to put in place.
I am certain the day after the next terrorist attack (and eventually there will be one) the "emergency laws" will be made permanent.

No, I didn't miss your reply. It doesn't change my concurance nor how correct cwjerome is IMO.
How long was the civil war?(about 4 years of "traditional warfare") How long was WW2?(approx 28 years according to scholars 1917-1945) Also you assume that the War on terror is without end. To a point you are correct but these military actions will end just like previous wars but our resolve to root out and destroy terrorism should never end.
Ah, and then you lose it by going off the deep end with your "neo-con" wailings - which is code-words for Israel supporters - and conspiracy mongering about "cover" for policy. Then you end with conspiracy speculation. So yes, while you responded to his post, I concur with what he said inspite of what you think defeats his post or position.