Could a black person get away with this?

[Fanatical Meat]

Resorting straight to strawman are we? Don't know who those people are and don't care. Based on statistics, a white person is more likely to be shot for wrestling with a police officer than a black person. A white person is more likely to be the victim of police brutality than a black person. Especially when in comparison against opposite race. A white civilian is more than likely to be the victim of incorrect use of force by police by a black officer than the opposite. Of course a black officer is more than likely to use excessive force on a black civilian than a white one, as well as a white officer is more than likely to use excessive force on a white civilian than a black one.

Which leads to one of the underlying control vectors of the per capita based on encounter rates that zinfamous was trying to allude to. There are far more white cops than black cops. White cops are far more likely to kill white people, and black cops are far more likely to kill black people. That is a bit of the correlation of why white people are more likely to be killed than black people by police. But it is a much weaker correlation than violent crime encounters or when the person is armed while encountering the police. Also geographics plays a large correlation role as well.

no which of those two images are more prone to be shot by the police for wrestling an officer. Assume the same location and same officers and same wrestling.

 

[HumblePie]

You are your own worst counter argument.

"That the moment you start to control for ANYTHING like encounter rates"
- I would hope so? That there was a build-up to this black person being shot, the alternative would be straight up assassination? Maybe cops would do a drive by?

In all your glorious cognitive might, you have deduced that there is a buildup to a person losing his/her life at the hands of police and that that is proof of something... Something.
Would you like a participation trophy? Bless you.

What? Again you are strawman and assigning emotions to my arguments that literally don't exist.

My counter argument to the OP's post is that his allusion that a black person is more likely to be shot and killed in that scenario than a white person is on its face a false assertion. That the statistics paint the opposite picture. Then you have people wanting to post the horrible general population per capita comparison of blacks killed versus whites killed by police and I explained why that is a wrong and bad statistic. I went on the explain why it is bad and how the moment you start controlling for control vectors and variables, that narrative falls completely apart as none of the outcomes support the OP's assertion.

You and many others here are literally being obtuse on purpose to what I've said, or are inbred at being unable to understand plain simple English with a basics statistics introduction.

 

[HumblePie]

no which of those two images are more prone to be shot by the police for wrestling an officer. Assume the same location and same officers and same wrestling.

What is the price of tea in China? Why would a police officer want to shoot a prone 2d image let alone wrestle with it? Yes I am making fun of this.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

What is the price of tea in China? Why would a police officer want to shoot a prone 2d image let alone wrestle with it? Yes I am making fun of this.

The premise of the thread which is apparent by its title “Could a Black Person get away with this”
I will assume you did not watch the video, I too frequently post before reading or watching.
Back to the images if either of those guys wrestled with a cop which one is more likely to be shot? Both are listed as photo stock middle aged White man or Black man photos.

 

[HumblePie]

The premise of the thread which is apparent by its title “Could a Black Person get away with this”
I will assume you did not watch the video, I too frequently post before reading or watching.
Back to the images if either of those guys wrestled with a cop which one is more likely to be shot? Both are listed as photo stock middle aged White man or Black man photos.

I already answered that. You haven't read what I've been writing. Go back and read. Hence why I poked fun at you asking yet a second time. The third time is getting more than a little annoying even if you've mostly been civil to this point.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I already answered that. You haven't read what I've been writing. Go back and read. Hence why I poked fun at you asking yet a second time.

Please restate or clarify it for me. Thread has become long.

 

[HumblePie]

Please restate or clarify it for me. Thread has become long.

Page 3 - Could a black person get away with this?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

You literally quoted it.

 

[soulcougher73]

Everyone understands this, you fucking idiot.

what you are walking over, again ignoring because it is very inconvenient for you, is why the interactions-with-cop between blacks and whites is so vastly different, considering that it doesn't track with what a per-capita measure would suggest.

it is inherently disproportionate, which is exactly why you are using it, and refusing to acknowledge that your data set is already biased against reasonable significance. The only justification you really have to ignore that, despite what we know of blacks and whites committing crimes at similar rates, as would be predicted per-capita, but prosecuted at vastly disproportionate rates, which rejects both per-capita and "Crime committed" rates, and again, this "police interaction rate" which, again, is inherently disproportionate, per capita, is that you must assume that there is a logical need--perhaps some law of inequality or some crap one has to make up--to justify the disproportionate encounters between police, across demographics.

yes, there is a disproportionate encounter rate, and that is exactly significant. You ignore that it has meaning, walk right past it, and continue onto your windowed set of data that is already inherently biased beyond any significance you can give to it. A responsible statistician would ask why blacks are disproportionately targeted, despite no significance commission of crime beyond their population rate that would support such a factor.

volcanoes aren't going out "searching for a demographic" that has no other reason to be near them more than the population that normally lives next to them. Using these thoroughly controlled variables in your argument exposes your pedestrian intellect for what we all know it is. If volcanoes and lightning storms had some method of seeking out demographics that don't normally live near them, beyond simple random chance that nature subscribes to them, then you could use this argument to defend why the data set you want to focus on is inherently biased, and maybe even ignore that bias as without meaning.

But you can't.

Now, please continue to make up some other bullshit, roll around in it, then declare yourself the king of shit hill, again.

But tornados really do love white trailer parks. what up with that? haha

/s

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Page 3 - Could a black person get away with this?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

You literally quoted it.

haha I forgot.
I think you are woefully wrong with your estimate

 

[soulcougher73]

The premise of the thread which is apparent by its title “Could a Black Person get away with this”
I will assume you did not watch the video, I too frequently post before reading or watching.
Back to the images if either of those guys wrestled with a cop which one is more likely to be shot? Both are listed as photo stock middle aged White man or Black man photos.

Is that Jerry Rice? I hope no cop wants to shot a football hall of famer.

 

[HumblePie]

So your argument is that, not only are blacks barely 15% of the population, but they get fucked with by police more than any other racial group, and get killed 2.6 times more than the percentage of the majority white population does?

And you are using that horrible general population per capita statistic for that. Blacks make up from 52% to 72% of various violent crimes in America depending on the crime. The are way over represented for being 13-15% of the overall population. They are not killed 2.6 times more at all as they have a significantly higher encounter rate with police. Out of the 200-250ish per year of black people killed by police, over 95% of it is done when an officer is arresting someone over a violent crime. Only 85% of white people are killed with police involvement when being arrested for a violent crime. Whites are far more likely to be killed in police interactions when it is a non violent offense than black people. Whites are far more likely to be killed in interactions than black people as the commit from 30%-45% of the violent crime in America depending on the crime and year you are looking at. Whites make up around 60% of the population. When you control for encounter rates in per capita it is whites that are more likely to get fucked up by cops than blacks.

But tornados really do love white trailer parks. what up with that? haha

Per raw numbers, more white people live in tornado alley in America. The chance for white versus black living in those areas to be affected by a tornado should be the same though.

 

[soulcougher73]

And you are using that horrible general population per capita statistic for that. Blacks make up from 52% to 72% of various violent crimes in America depending on the crime. The are way over represented for being 13-15% of the overall population. They are not killed 2.6 times more at all as they have a significantly higher encounter rate with police. Out of the 200-250ish per year of black people killed by police, over 95% of it is done when an officer is arresting someone over a violent crime. Only 85% of white people are killed with police involvement when being arrested for a violent crime. Whites are far more likely to be killed in police interactions when it is a non violent offense than black people. Whites are far more likely to be killed in interactions than black people as the commit from 30%-45% of the violent crime in America depending on the crime and year you are looking at. Whites make up around 60% of the population. When you control for encounter rates in per capita it is whites that are more likely to get fucked up by cops than blacks.



Per raw numbers, more white people live in tornado alley in America. The chance for white versus black living in those areas to be affected by a tornado should be the same though.

I had typed up that reply to you awhile ago and forgot it was still there. i edited it out. But on the tornado thing i was just being silly.

But reading the rest of the thread i’m not against your arguments, as a statistic layman myself. i’m not saying your line of reasoning doesnt have merit. outside of not seeing any data to back up the police encounter numbers. You just say they are higher but i’ve not seen numbers even in all the links in this thread. i’m just taking your word for it in the sake of the argument.

 

[HumblePie]

I had typed up that reply to you awhile ago and forgot it was still there. i edited it out. But on the tornado thing i was just being silly.

But reading the rest of the thread i’m not against your arguments, as a statistic layman myself. i’m not saying your line of reasoning doesnt have merit. outside of not seeing any data to back up the police encounter numbers. You just say they are higher but i’ve not seen numbers even in all the links in this thread. i’m just taking your word for it in the sake of the argument.

I linked the PDF for the last major study done on this earlier. It has those numbers. Same with the LawEnforcementToday site. I am not stating the site won't have a bias. I am stating that they do link to the FBI and DOJ numbers to look up for yourself. I also do call out the ridiculous claims of some on the right when it comes to racial demographic police numbers. For example that claim that cops are 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black civilian than an "unarmed" black civilian is to be killed by a cop. It IS a number, but it is a meaningless one.

The deadly shootings that Black Lives Matter ignores

Anti-cop activist Shaun King says that his involvement in the campaign around the Jazmine Barnes murder was not driven by reports that a white man had killed the 7-year-old girl, gunned down in Hou…

nypost.com

As I said, there are about 9-10ish unarmed black people killed every year by police but 200-250 in total killed. The unarmed value fucks with the comparison and really doesn't do it justice at all. They also do a comparison against the entire black population. Which doesn't work again for this comparison. It again should be based on encounter rates. Using the entire population of black people dilutes the number especially when the entire population isn't that likely to have incidents with the police. Also, the number limits the comparison to the unarmed rate and not the total homicide count. It's a stupid meaningless statistic. That is compared to the 48 killed usually of cops by blacks in the year they list with 678K cops nation wide. It's a stupid meaningless statistic as I said. Many cops also rarely have any encounters with black people. The vast majority of people in this country are white, and the vast majority of this country does not commit crimes. There are certain select areas of the US with very high violent crime rates and outside those areas the amount of violent crime is almost absent. It does happen, but not that often.

As I said, the general population per capita statistics on these issues, for either side of the political spectrum, are absolutely stupid. They are only used to score political points. I am a devil's advocate kind of person that is very logical and very even keel. Treat me with respect and I respond in kind. Act like an asshole and call me a white supremacist just because you disagree with me and I have no respect back at all. Since you responded with a valid question and respect I am very thankful you did so. I don't mind tongue and cheek jokes at all either. Fanatical Meat in his last few postings has shown very good civil discourse with me and I am happy to have such discourse. Truth be told, I try to not provide my opinion one way or another unless asked. I will point out logic fallacies and misrepresented facts as I see them. Most of the time I'm right, but sometimes I'm wrong. If I am wrong I have owned up to it every time on this forum. Every single time. It doesn't happen often though. I don't like being wrong.

Thank you again for having a reasonable post.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I linked the PDF for the last major study done on this earlier. It has those numbers. Same with the LawEnforcementToday site. I am not stating the site won't have a bias. I am stating that they do link to the FBI and DOJ numbers to look up for yourself. I also do call out the ridiculous claims of some on the right when it comes to racial demographic police numbers. For example that claim that cops are 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black civilian than an "unarmed" black civilian is to be killed by a cop. It IS a number, but it is a meaningless one.

The deadly shootings that Black Lives Matter ignores

Anti-cop activist Shaun King says that his involvement in the campaign around the Jazmine Barnes murder was not driven by reports that a white man had killed the 7-year-old girl, gunned down in Hou…

nypost.com

As I said, there are about 9-10ish unarmed black people killed every year by police but 200-250 in total killed. The unarmed value fucks with the comparison and really doesn't do it justice at all. They also do a comparison against the entire black population. Which doesn't work again for this comparison. It again should be based on encounter rates. Using the entire population of black people dilutes the number especially when the entire population isn't that likely to have incidents with the police. Also, the number limits the comparison to the unarmed rate and not the total homicide count. It's a stupid meaningless statistic. That is compared to the 48 killed usually of cops by blacks in the year they list with 678K cops nation wide. It's a stupid meaningless statistic as I said. Many cops also rarely have any encounters with black people. The vast majority of people in this country are white, and the vast majority of this country does not commit crimes. There are certain select areas of the US with very high violent crime rates and outside those areas the amount of violent crime is almost absent. It does happen, but not that often.

As I said, the general population per capita statistics on these issues, for either side of the political spectrum, are absolutely stupid. They are only used to score political points. I am a devil's advocate kind of person that is very logical and very even keel. Treat me with respect and I respond in kind. Act like an asshole and call me a white supremacist just because you disagree with me and I have no respect back at all. Since you responded with a valid question and respect I am very thankful you did so. I don't mind tongue and cheek jokes at all either. Fanatical Meat in his last few postings has shown very good civil discourse with me and I am happy to have such discourse. Truth be told, I try to not provide my opinion one way or another unless asked. I will point out logic fallacies and misrepresented facts as I see them. Most of the time I'm right, but sometimes I'm wrong. If I am wrong I have owned up to it every time on this forum. Every single time. It doesn't happen often though. I don't like being wrong.

Thank you again for having a reasonable post.

as opposed to your unreasonable post?

 

[HomerJS]

And you are using that horrible general population per capita statistic for that. Blacks make up from 52% to 72% of various violent crimes in America depending on the crime. The are way over represented for being 13-15% of the overall population. They are not killed 2.6 times more at all as they have a significantly higher encounter rate with police. Out of the 200-250ish per year of black people killed by police, over 95% of it is done when an officer is arresting someone over a violent crime. Only 85% of white people are killed with police involvement when being arrested for a violent crime. Whites are far more likely to be killed in police interactions when it is a non violent offense than black people. Whites are far more likely to be killed in interactions than black people as the commit from 30%-45% of the violent crime in America depending on the crime and year you are looking at. Whites make up around 60% of the population. When you control for encounter rates in per capita it is whites that are more likely to get fucked up by cops than blacks.



Per raw numbers, more white people live in tornado alley in America. The chance for white versus black living in those areas to be affected by a tornado should be the same though.

Hey Mr. Fucking Raw Numbers in case you didn't know it but middle class, upper middle class and upper class blacks don't commit crimes disproportionate to their population. I don't want to step on your black people are criminals premise but poor people commit crime not black people. Black people happen to be disproportionately poor. If your premise were true the likes of Tyler Perry and DL Hugley would be some embezzling motherfuckers.

Want to know where the disproportionate crime is amongst upper middle and upper class folks based on dollars stolen, white people by many times over. Us thievin' negros don't hold a candle to you white boys when it comes to stealing money. I found 2 studies that confirmed this but they are paid publications and I'm too cheap to pay. If I find a free version I will post

Who Commits White-Collar Crime, and What Do We Know About Them?

"Who Commits White-Collar Crime, and What Do We Know About Them?" published on by Oxford University Press.

www.oxfordhandbooks.com

Enron fraud cost 20,000 employees their pensions valued at $1B. White boyz.

The economic meltdown of 2008 cost this country when over 22 trillion. Only well connected white boyz could pull off the kind of fraud that collapsed our economy. Way more efficient then robbing someone on a street corner of $20

Oh in case you still have the delusion of equitable treatment under the law look at this.

 

[Maxima1]

That’s the whole damn point. Why are there so many police interactions with black people

Why do those non-violent crime interactions sometimes result in death of the black person?

, why do these interactions have a much higher rate of negative consequences

To answer my own question above, black people do more violent crime. Soooo, basically, they find out they are going to jail for having some weed or cocaine and somehow think trying to kill/injure/resist the cop is going to solve their problems.

Let’s think about a hypothetical world. If cops could somehow pull an Oblivion “stop right there, criminal scum!” with women for every little non-violent transgression, all that additional arresting wouldn’t result in a lot of women deaths. Why, you say? It’s simple. Women won't kill/injure/resist cops as much if they're caught.

why do young black men go to jail for drug possession at a much higher percentage than young white men who are charged with the same damn crime.

I dunno. It’s the same shit in Canada and UK despite their “right” party being more like our left, no concentrated black-pop-in-the-South equivalent, or as high economic or racial (too few, for that) segregation.

Why is there a video of a cop kneeling on a handcuffed behind the back black and is face down on the ground neck while other officers watched and did nothing of substance to prevent it.
Obviously there is something wrong with that.

Why is there the Tony Timpa video? It’s the same attitude. And it’s obvious why the other cops didn’t do much despite expressing concern: 1. Retaliation 2. Easy to convince subordinates into going along with stupid shit.

no which of those two images are more prone to be shot by the police for wrestling an officer. Assume the same location and same officers and same wrestling.

I have video below of white and black officer dealing with the same person. Guess who turned the other cheek? XD Seriously though, can you put a number on what you think the percent difference is? Using this reasoning, why aren’t cops incredibly sexist against men then? Cops are generally more comfortable of race & gender in this order: women (any race) > Asian men > white men > Latinos > black men. For obvious reason... Ironically, liberals sympathize with blacks for irrationally fearing cops while telling white people they don't need to worry despite lifetime death by cop difference being only 2.5X white, which is basically a wash once you factor in violent crime difference.

Hey Mr. Fucking Raw Numbers in case you didn't know it but middle class, upper middle class and upper class blacks don't commit crimes disproportionate to their population. I don't want to step on your black people are criminals premise but poor people commit crime not black people. Black people happen to be disproportionately poor. If your premise were true the likes of Tyler Perry and DL Hugley would be some embezzling motherfuckers.

That assertion isn't accurate.

 

[ivwshane]

Holy shit! Where did you people go to school?

 

[Viper1j]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1292927186165473280

Tamir Rice didn't even get a warning before being gunned down. This guy is wrestling with the cop while trying to be arrested. I don't want to hear a single word by white people saying "just follow the cops orders and you won't be killed" ever again.

Nice to be white.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Yeah sources were provided to you that completely debunks your claims, you didn’t bother reading them because you really aren’t interested in a useful discussion. It’s why your threads have to get edited by the mods, they are meant to inflame and troll.

You play the white victim card well.

He plays the whiny lying bitch card well.

 

[HumblePie]

Hey Mr. Fucking Raw Numbers in case you didn't know it but middle class, upper middle class and upper class blacks don't commit crimes disproportionate to their population. I don't want to step on your black people are criminals premise but poor people commit crime not black people. Black people happen to be disproportionately poor. If your premise were true the likes of Tyler Perry and DL Hugley would be some embezzling motherfuckers.

Hey Mr Dumbass, I am not stating "all" black people commit crimes disproportionately. I never even said that. I have stated the exact opposite. Literally the vast majority of violent crime in this country is in a select few geographic areas. Yes those areas are poor, but there are also other poor areas in the country that do not have the same violent crime problems. Poor is NOT the strong correlation indicator of crime. Especially not for violent crime. There has literally been 3 strong correlation factors with violent crime.

1) Lack of a standard family household. AKA either the Father or Mother is missing. This is literally the number 1 indicator to whether a person grows up to commit violent crime. Doesn't matter if the person is black, white, asian, hispanic, purple, green, blah blah blah. This really rachets up when either of the parents, even if not in the household, were previous violent criminals themselves.

2) Handouts and work ethics. Those with role models who rather sit on their asses and do nothing but take government money only will show their kids that the only way to live is through entitlement. Again, this transcends ALL demographics. Black, white, asain... you know the list. It's not about taking handouts, it's about getting off your fucking ass to try to make something of your life for yourself and your kids. Those that rather just want to drink government milk and eat government cheese all their lives and be content with that set very bad examples for their kids.

3) Growing up in high crime rate areas. If violent crime is all around where you live, continuing to stay there and not attempting to get to safer places will expose your kids to violent crimes all their lives. They'll start to see that as the norm. Ties in with another strong corollary factor of idolizing criminal behavior and traits. Although that is a smaller factor.


As for your shit about white collar crimes. Yep. There are people of all ethnic groups that commit white collar crimes. They are bad shit, but last time I checked it typically isn't violent. Those kind of crimes are a whole different discussion and topic.

 

[HumblePie]

as opposed to your unreasonable post?

We already know you are a racist that just dislikes facts. So anyone else that isn't racist and dislikes those same facts you don't like is deemed unreasonable by you.

 

[brycejones]

We already know you are a racist that just dislikes facts. So anyone else that isn't racist and dislikes those same facts you don't like is deemed unreasonable by you.

Damn that’s a lot of projection.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Damn that’s a lot of projection.

Is he talking about how Dick's ruined his X-mas causing him so much mental anguish that he was just forced to sue them?

Or is he spouting more nonsensical arguments citing things that don't really support his claims? As in, like basic facts seem to be a problem. (This is distinct from the last one I listed, as in this one he'll look at a pic and claim a house under construction isn't a construction site, or white people attacking a black person was the black person beating the white people.)

Or telling us how he experienced the worst racism in the history of ever?

Or is he trying to claim legal expertise by citing things that don't support his argument because he doesn't seem to know what he's talking about?

Just trying to figure out which clown routine he's on. Sometimes they can be mildly amusing to see how unhinged he's willing to go, or see him, a whiny bitch that literally sued over mental anguish because he didn't get his Red Rider BB gun assault rifle ruining his worship of baby Jesus, crying about others pointing out valid issues and wondering why his blatantly racist threads get locked.

 

[HumblePie]

Damn that’s a lot of projection.

No because you, him, and many others here show they don't like facts. The only facts I was posting in here is that general population per capita data comparisons of police actions is stupid. That the moment you control for anything else, the values flip. You can control based on interactions. You can control based on location where actual shooting events tend to take place with significant numbers to do some analysis on. You know like St Louis, Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, Atlanta, Orlando... all the places where the black population isn't 13% but usually 25% or higher. Where the white non-hispanic populations tend to be lower than the national average, but are still killed more often there than blacks. When you dilute the statistics by using values of huge amounts of white people living in rural areas compared to blacks that almost never come in contact with police and have basically no chance of being shot the narrative of blacks being more likely to be killed by police is crap. It is even worse when controlling for encounter rates and geographic location.

When the only responses anyone can give me back are "you da white supremacist" and other insults I already know I won the argument. Same any one with a brain realizes that too.

 

[Rebel_L]

Now to go further with this thought process. Per capita deaths rates for say road vehicle crashes in America is a good number. The vast majority of the population rides in a road vehicle at some point during the year. Most of us do so every day, or least until the current virus crisis. So per capita comparisons of regions, demographics, vehicles used, and all sorts of other variables can be used.

Which leads me into the next point. Like volcanoes, deaths by police can only occur with police interactions. Police interactions with the AVERAGE person is rare. Many people can go their whole lives without interacting with a police officer. So a per capita comparison of police killings across the whole population segment is no longer a valid statistic as it isn't the average of that population. It becomes a useless, dumb statistic.

Yet just like cars and unlike volcano's everyone is around police. They are in every city and town and do tasks that affect all the people. The average person likely sees police people regularly, I bet in small towns they even interact on a regular basis as they say hello or wave at them as they drive by (none of which are recorded in any of the statistics your referencing). You actually have a great example here, because what your trying to do with your police interactions is like saying you can only die in a car if you get into an accident, so we should only use a per accident rate statistics to talk about people dying in a car. Many people go their whole lives without getting into an accident so it really is very similar to what your talking about. Yet there you think the per capita statistic is very valid for cars, why is that?