Cost of distributed computing, over 150$ per year per computer!

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
Well since my initial response in this thread received several negative reactions including one from the neighborhood moderator let me take some time to readdress this issue. First off clearly my initial response was not the most diplomatic of posts, but it was also meant sarcastically in that I really DON'T care what the heck you do with your computers and electricity, and if you want to spend some of it on DC then thats great and your own business. However, that being said, I do NOT consider it an indefensible or vicious position to state that distributed computing is in fact a waste of resources. As the OP stated and many others (even supporters) have confirmed here, DC greatly increases power consumption and reduces product life. If perhaps 1 million "computer years" (and the number may be far more or less I don't know) are spent on DC at a cost of 100$ in electricity and 50$ in asset depreciation each year then thats 150,000,000$, so I have to ask what is all this money producing? Certinally with something like SETI@home my answer would be "not much", then comes the issue of the folding programs, and to this point I can simply say that I follow mainline news and technology news on a daily basis and I can personally never remember hearing of any major breakthroughs being contributed by these programs.

To some people it seems like this opinion is a very negative or viewed perhaps as an attack, but I am simply looking at the facts as I have seen them. I do not consider this argument to be invalid, nor would I consider an argument made in support for DC to be invalid, both I am sure can bring up good points in their own defense. Nor am I in some way set in stone in this opinion, if someone can produce evidence showing great breakthroughs caused by DC then that would be great too. But acting like I am a bad person for going against a program intended to cure cancer is meaningless without proof that said program actually DOES help find a cure to cancer. Personally I am a utilitarian, and when I see hundreds of millions of dollars going into something I have to ask my self "what are we getting back?", and so far as I have seen with DC the answer is not much, certainlly not 100,000,000$+ worth of meaningful research. Thats just my opinion, if you want to argue against it then great, but I don't see where my having a differing opinion than many people here is grounds for moderator involvement or attacks on my character.

That about sums it up right there. I said myself "I would rather donate 200$ a year per computer I own to cancer research". So far I have yet to see ANYTHING at ALL come out of DC... but I am sure 150 million dollars which so far resulted in:

WHAT HAVE WE DONE SO FAR AND WHERE ARE WE GOING?

Folding@Home has been a success. We have folded several small, fast folding proteins, with experimental validation of our method. We are now working to further develop our method, and to apply it to more complex and interesting proteins and protein folding and misfolding questions.

Since then, Folding@Home has studied more complex proteins, reporting on the folding of many proteins on the microsecond timescale, including BBA5, the villin headpiece, Trp Cage, among others.

More recently, we have been putting a great deal of effort into studying proteins relevant for diseases, such as Alzheimer's, Hunntington's, and Osteogenesis Imperfecta.

You can learn more about our results, on our Results Page and you can see specific , peer-reviewed scientific achievements on our Papers Page.

Now maybe that is the best thing you COULD have done with 150 million dollars to cure cancer. Or maybe there were more effective utilization. I don't know, I am not an expert. But I doubt it was the best use for the money.
That being said. if that's how you choose to donate, then good for you.

Of course if you spend that kind of money on something less lofty like SETI (the first project I joined, and where most of my computer hours went...) personally I wish for a project to map the galaxy and search the immidiate sky's for threats to earth (early detection is the ONLY way we are gonna stop a meteorite, not sending Bruce Willis) rather then search for radio signals from aliens (no alien culture could work on radio signals, a faster source of communication MUST be used... that or maybe interstellar travel is impractical...)

@Idontcare: A hair dryer isn't running 24/7, and that figure IS accurate for computers DUAL CORE computers. Quads take even more!

@PCTC2: Good point, but do you honestly say you cannot find any charities that are decently managed? I know some unscrupulous men who would have worked at charity already if they really got so much money. (I wouldn't because I am too damn honest for my own good)


@those who pay 50$ or so a month total... it turns out that there are states out there with 6 cents per kwh... insanely low. I would GUESS those states are also very COLD, so you don't need to pay much for air conditioning (and the computer doubles as a space heater, lowering your heating bill rather increasing your cooling bill)... It makes a LOT more sense to run that in your state.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
Well since my initial response in this thread received several negative reactions including one from the neighborhood moderator let me take some time to readdress this issue. First off clearly my initial response was not the most diplomatic of posts, but it was also meant sarcastically in that I really DON'T care what the heck you do with your computers and electricity, and if you want to spend some of it on DC then thats great and your own business. However, that being said, I do NOT consider it an indefensible or vicious position to state that distributed computing is in fact a waste of resources. As the OP stated and many others (even supporters) have confirmed here, DC greatly increases power consumption and reduces product life. If perhaps 1 million "computer years" (and the number may be far more or less I don't know) are spent on DC at a cost of 100$ in electricity and 50$ in asset depreciation each year then thats 150,000,000$, so I have to ask what is all this money producing? Certinally with something like SETI@home my answer would be "not much", then comes the issue of the folding programs, and to this point I can simply say that I follow mainline news and technology news on a daily basis and I can personally never remember hearing of any major breakthroughs being contributed by these programs.

To some people it seems like this opinion is a very negative or viewed perhaps as an attack, but I am simply looking at the facts as I have seen them. I do not consider this argument to be invalid, nor would I consider an argument made in support for DC to be invalid, both I am sure can bring up good points in their own defense. Nor am I in some way set in stone in this opinion, if someone can produce evidence showing great breakthroughs caused by DC then that would be great too. But acting like I am a bad person for going against a program intended to cure cancer is meaningless without proof that said program actually DOES help find a cure to cancer. Personally I am a utilitarian, and when I see hundreds of millions of dollars going into something I have to ask my self "what are we getting back?", and so far as I have seen with DC the answer is not much, certainlly not 100,000,000$+ worth of meaningful research. Thats just my opinion, if you want to argue against it then great, but I don't see where my having a differing opinion than many people here is grounds for moderator involvement or attacks on my character.

Why don't you go to Stanford.edu, or google folding home or Simply click this link
It shows you all the progress being made. There is also a similar effort going on at Berkley I think, not sure the name, but I did it using boinc for a while.

Also, do you propose that you know better than two of the most respected universities in the world as to how to research cancer ? I sure couldn't support an argument either way, but if I were a betting man, I would put my money on the universities.(and I am in a way...)

 

[firewolfsm]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
I lost 3 boards this year due to stress. I lost 4 ram sticks due to stress. I ended up watercooling all my rigs because of stress.

You're doing a good thing of course, but I think putting that money directly into some relief fund could do more for society.

 

[taltamir]

And since we are already telling people how to donate...

If you are a lawyer that makes 500$ a hour, for fucks sake do NOT go spend a whole work day of 8 hours volunteering to serve soup to the poor...
Go work for 8 hours, and donate those 4000$ you made.. it will allow them to HIRE some of those poor to serve soup. Someone gets a job, other people get their soup served, everyone wins!

 

[lopri]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
Yes, distributed computing is a waste of money so far as I am concerned, and if I were a dirty hippie I would probably also note its harm on the environment and contributions to global warming.

Nice threadcrap. If you don't have anything positive to add. Stay out of the thread.

esquared
Anandtech Senior Moderator

While I don't agree with BrownTown's viewpoints, I don't understand how his post is considered thread-crapping? He is replying directly to the OP and adding his opinion.

 

[Amaroque]

This thread belongs in the DC forum...

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: firewolfsm

Originally posted by: aigomorla
I lost 3 boards this year due to stress. I lost 4 ram sticks due to stress. I ended up watercooling all my rigs because of stress.

You're doing a good thing of course, but I think putting that money directly into some relief fund could do more for society.

no because in a way i know which hardware can take stress til the end of time.

Mark sure loves me for going though that many motherboards. I helped him pick out his DQ6.


Without DC i dont think i would of ever grasped the concept "Rock Solid Stable". Until you've seriously stressed the hell out of the machine you dont apreciate what high end and high performance parts are.

Also, yeah i understand under most normal conditions, the average person wont stress there machine to such an extent, but i and many others who DC do.

Lastly the only arguements you guys have on why we shouldnt DC is cost of electricity.
Maybe it hasnt occured to you that people like i and mark who have over 10g's worth of computer hardware, 300-500 / mo. on electricity... well, its just another average expense.


Also i do a considerable amount of donation to my church for both the community and also for tax deduction purposes. WCG to me is a fun way of doing another form of donation. I get a tax deduction for the hardware anyhow at the end of the year.

 

[m1ldslide1]

I guess I have quite a few reasons for folding, but first and foremost it's fun. Computer hardware is my hobby and has been for a few years now. DC provides another way for me to put my gear to good use, which is exciting given how many freakin' hours I've put into spec'ing, modding, overclocking, cooling, benchmarking, so on and so forth over and over to get where I'm at.

That said, I probably wouldn't do it just for that reason. I could run prime95 24/7 and get a similar effect if that's all that I was into. I'm willing to spend the $150 per computer or whatever it is in Portland so that I can contribute to a charity, since I never seem to have the cash to contribute in a traditional sense. This part seems especially worthwhile since, like others have said, you're helping to do the actual research instead of worrying that you're funding a bureaucracy.

Third, the points / rankings system is some good old fashioned ego stroking if I ever saw any.

Finally, the DC forum is pretty cool, and never in your life have you seen so many emoticons. :beer::thumbsup:

 

[imported_dinGLeBeRRy]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: firewolfsm

Originally posted by: aigomorla
I lost 3 boards this year due to stress. I lost 4 ram sticks due to stress. I ended up watercooling all my rigs because of stress.

You're doing a good thing of course, but I think putting that money directly into some relief fund could do more for society.

no because in a way i know which hardware can take stress til the end of time.

Mark sure loves me for going though that many motherboards. I helped him pick out his DQ6.


Without DC i dont think i would of ever grasped the concept "Rock Solid Stable". Until you've seriously stressed the hell out of the machine you dont apreciate what high end and high performance parts are.

Also, yeah i understand under most normal conditions, the average person wont stress there machine to such an extent, but i and many others who DC do.

Lastly the only arguements you guys have on why we shouldnt DC is cost of electricity.
Maybe it hasnt occured to you that people like i and mark who have over 10g's worth of computer hardware, 300-500 / mo. on electricity... well, its just another average expense.


Also i do a considerable amount of donation to my church for both the community and also for tax deduction purposes. WCG to me is a fun way of doing another form of donation. I get a tax deduction for the hardware anyhow at the end of the year.

300 to 500 a month on elect.?? wow.........

 

[ch33zw1z]

How do you get a deduction for hardware?

 

[bob4432]

i would just make sure to get a m/b w/ integrated gpu

i picked up a kill-a-watt and was surprised at the wattage usage, especially system 4

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: ch33zw1z
How do you get a deduction for hardware?

QFT, how do you do this? just another charitable deduction? then can you deduct the electricity?

 

[MadMurph]

Originally posted by: biodoc

. . . IHMO DC support of basic research of any kind is not a waste of power/electricity. The amount of power consumed by DC is trivial compared to all of society in general. . .

Agree.

FYI, to BrownTown, taltamir, hans007 faheyd, and any other lemmings of similar persuasion, even prime numbers have a social utility. All the encryption programs that protect your online data use prime numbers, so I wouldn't discount that, either. Funny how a human's first reaction to something they don't understand is usually negative.

I happen to be one of those people for whom Folding@Home has a personal significance as well as a social one: my father died of cancer, my mother is fighting lung cancer at this writing, and I lost a kidney to cancer. Whatever the cost, it's chump change compared to the cure. Come walk in my shoes before you slam something for which you obviously have a synapse lapse.

Cheers,
a dirty hippie

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: MadMurph

Originally posted by: biodoc

. . . IHMO DC support of basic research of any kind is not a waste of power/electricity. The amount of power consumed by DC is trivial compared to all of society in general. . .

Agree.

FYI, to BrownTown, taltamir, hans007 faheyd, and any other lemmings of similar persuasion, even prime numbers have a social utility. All the encryption programs that protect your online data use prime numbers, so I wouldn't discount that, either. Funny how a human's first reaction to something they don't understand is usually negative.

I happen to be one of those people for whom Folding@Home has a personal significance as well as a social one: my father died of cancer, my mother is fighting lung cancer at this writing, and I lost a kidney to cancer. Whatever the cost, it's chump change compared to the cure. Come walk in my shoes before you slam something for which you obviously have a synapse lapse.

Cheers,
a dirty hippie

:thumbsup:
What he said.

 

[PolymerTim]

I have my own theory as to why DC is a popular and effective way to contribute to scientific research. I think its all about psychology. Yes, in an ideal world, it is more efficient to donate money directly to research programs than to go about the indirect path DC, but the problem comes down to who will actually donate. Yes, some people will donate hard cash to a worthy cause, but I'm willing to bet that for every philanthropist willing to give $250/year to research cancer, you will find 10 computer techies just itching to install that new software that stresses your system to the max, allows you to have competitions with your friends and teams, and, oh yeah, also contributes to worthy scientific research.

The beauty of it is that people are having fun donating. Efficiency takes a back burner when a marketing technique can increase the number of people donating by orders of magnitude. (In fact when you think of it, that's kind of the whole premise of DC; numbers matter more than individual power.) Complain about it if you will, but this kind of thing happens in the real world all the time because it works. Just look at the charity balls and dinners. Those things cost a lot of money when would-be attendants could simply donate the money and be done with it.

Another good example is the space program. A lot of people argue that exploring space is a waste of money given the problems we have to deal with here on earth. Proponents like to point out all the spin-off advances in technology that have brought about real-world benefits, while the opponents point out that it is very inefficient to run a few billion dollars through a space program to get spin-offs when they could have been researched directly. Both sides have good arguments, but my belief is that, if it wasn't for the human drive to explore, the space program wouldn't exist and much of that money still would never have gone to a worthwhile cause.

Me personally, I started RC5 back when there weren't a whole lot of options (basically either that or SETI that I was aware of). The value of RC5 then was more about advancing DC as a science and a tool for use in general. I believe the RC5 project was just a means to an end; a convenient and simple project for advancing the platform. Now that there are several valuable projects out there, I guess I really should make the switch. But to be honest, I haven't had to think about my crunching software in over 2 years (it really does just run in the background) and haven't given it much thought.

So I have my own views about charity, but I think the important thing is not so much that people give in the most efficient way possible as that they give at all. I would only complain about donations if I believe they did more harm than good, and I don't think that is the case here. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I also believe that charity is contagious. I believe that DC projects will help (at least a few) people to discover the joy of giving and inspire them to find the best way they can give to others. I know I have found the joy of giving, but I still have to find a balance between my desire to give and my greedy human nature. That's a balance we all have to find for ourselves.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: ch33zw1z
How do you get a deduction for hardware?

ask your cpa if you qualify to write off for business expenses.

Umm it helps being a business owner also. :T

But many people use computers as a write off for office expense. You just need a good CPA that can work numbers legally so its possible.


And my main rig labeled queen draws 515W off the wall on full load. Thats the kind of extreme hardware she's running.

Originally posted by: MadMurph

Originally posted by: biodoc

. . . IHMO DC support of basic research of any kind is not a waste of power/electricity. The amount of power consumed by DC is trivial compared to all of society in general. . .

Agree.

FYI, to BrownTown, taltamir, hans007 faheyd, and any other lemmings of similar persuasion, even prime numbers have a social utility. All the encryption programs that protect your online data use prime numbers, so I wouldn't discount that, either. Funny how a human's first reaction to something they don't understand is usually negative.

I happen to be one of those people for whom Folding@Home has a personal significance as well as a social one: my father died of cancer, my mother is fighting lung cancer at this writing, and I lost a kidney to cancer. Whatever the cost, it's chump change compared to the cure. Come walk in my shoes before you slam something for which you obviously have a synapse lapse.

Cheers,
a dirty hippie

My prayers goes out to your mom. I had an uncle that died of liver cancer. You can count my rigs to be pumping on WCG on cancer projects. :]

 

[Insidious]

I like the.... what did they call us in that article?...... Quirky subculture!

I'll be happy to venture to these other threads and spread cheer once in a blue moon... but having a forum (I'm talking about the Distributed Computing forum) where people have the intellect to seek attention by building each other up and acknowledging their efforts, by making them smile, by offering support if a tough time comes around in RL.... That's where I'd prefer to 'waste' my computer and the energy it takes to run it.

Heck the above would make DC a VERY valid hobby in it's own right for me... but it was the scientific goals that really brought me here and I'm pleased to help.

Speaking of waste.... if the juvenile folks that think stabbing at the cares of other people to see if they react is not a waste...... well then I would suggest the time you've spent in this thread is a waste and would like to recommend you quit messing up the environment or whatever it is you think is being wasted.

-Sid

Aren't little children normally less disposed to acting out for attention before they are old enough to attempt typing?

 

[hans007]

Originally posted by: MadMurph

Originally posted by: biodoc

. . . IHMO DC support of basic research of any kind is not a waste of power/electricity. The amount of power consumed by DC is trivial compared to all of society in general. . .

Agree.

FYI, to BrownTown, taltamir, hans007 faheyd, and any other lemmings of similar persuasion, even prime numbers have a social utility. All the encryption programs that protect your online data use prime numbers, so I wouldn't discount that, either. Funny how a human's first reaction to something they don't understand is usually negative.

I happen to be one of those people for whom Folding@Home has a personal significance as well as a social one: my father died of cancer, my mother is fighting lung cancer at this writing, and I lost a kidney to cancer. Whatever the cost, it's chump change compared to the cure. Come walk in my shoes before you slam something for which you obviously have a synapse lapse.

Cheers,
a dirty hippie

i really dont think spending what probably amounts to hundreds of thousands of dollars to find the next prime number if not millions of dollars in wasted electricity is a remotely good use of money. it is probably marginally better for the protein folding.


find a gigantic prime number doesnt matter at all for computer security. you do not encrypt things with gigantic prime numbers. and as for rc5 cracking, it just prooves how long it would take to crack an encryption algorithm of x bits. that is alreayd something you could calculate out what the likely amountof time would be based on x cycles etc.

and if someone got lucky and cracked rc5 on the first try, that also doesnt proove anything. there is like 0 value to brute force cracking contests, or brute force prime number contests.



and as for you mr. i lost my kidney to cancer. why dont you convince everyone to donate all their electricity money which is probably countless thousands of dollars in extra watts to actual researchers.

i mean these researchers are at least on some thought out non brute force path as to how to solve the problem. brute force approaches to solving problems are almost never the efficient way to solve them. sure you could cure cancer folding proteins. but you could probalby take the same amount of resources and give them to real researchers, and find a cure with some sort of real researchers.

or maybe you subscribe to the lets hire 1000000 monkeys with typewriters and one of them will bang out a great screenplay theory.

 

[Markfw]

hans007, So you think that Stanford and Berkley don't do real Cancer research ? Isn;t that where most real research comes from ? The top universities ? If not why don't you enlighten us as to who IS a real researcher.

 

[GLeeM]

Before I started DC, I always left my computer on anyhow! But it just sat there doing nothing waiting for me to use it. Well, I guess it did help to reduce heating costs for the nine month northern Minnesota heating season.

It was minus 30 degree fahrenheit here this morning. I wish I could afford to buy more DC computers to help with heating. Two $50 electric heaters drawing 1500 watts each are helping to lower my fuel oil bill without contributing anything toward research

@hans007
The real researchers using DC are doing the same as real researchers not using DC. They are "on some thought out non brute force path" same as others. Except, instead of using your donated money to buy supercomputer time to run their best guess, they are using your donated computer cycles.
Also, the results (findings) from DC help other researchers in deciding a best thought out plan.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: MadMurph

Originally posted by: biodoc

. . . IHMO DC support of basic research of any kind is not a waste of power/electricity. The amount of power consumed by DC is trivial compared to all of society in general. . .

Agree.

FYI, to BrownTown, taltamir, hans007 faheyd, and any other lemmings of similar persuasion, even prime numbers have a social utility. All the encryption programs that protect your online data use prime numbers, so I wouldn't discount that, either. Funny how a human's first reaction to something they don't understand is usually negative.

I happen to be one of those people for whom Folding@Home has a personal significance as well as a social one: my father died of cancer, my mother is fighting lung cancer at this writing, and I lost a kidney to cancer. Whatever the cost, it's chump change compared to the cure. Come walk in my shoes before you slam something for which you obviously have a synapse lapse.

Cheers,
a dirty hippie

Just to clarify my previous statement, I was labeling people who would want you NOT to do DC as "dirty hippie" (which clearly was insulting and I am sorry), but the post you are talking about is 100% SUPPORTING your right to do DC all you want, I was simply saying that in my own personal opinion it is not a very economical way of going about curing cancer, if you disagree that is cool too, if you want to spend your money doing it your money and go ahead. I am not telling anyone what they should or should not spend their money on, I am simply saying I am not going to spend my money on it. And please do not bring this up like it is some moral argument, cancer is something that affect EVERYONE , and I am sure every person here has lost a relative or loved one to cancer, I have lost a grandmother to ovarian cancer and have an uncle who has colon cancer, so not as bad as your situation, but still I am well aware of the effects of cancer. I am not trying to make a moral argument or a political argument here simply a utilitarian one

Just to clarify BrownTown's positions:

-cancer is bad
-finding a cure for cancer is good
-people can spend their own money doing whatever the heck they want (given obvious limits)
-DC is not the most economical way to fund cancer research

It seems only this last one has any real argument from anyone, and imo any argument made on this issue should be one concerning computing technology or research using scientific facts. I tried to do a back of the envelope calculation concerning the cost of this endevour and made a judgment on its utility based on my knowledge of its benefits verse the calculated costs. IF you want to attack these calculations or methods than please go right ahead they are certainly not something I have put large amounts of time into studying, but implying that I and others are "lemmings" simply because we choose to contribute to humanity in a way different than yourself is not an attack I consider justifiable.

I am sorry if my original post sounded insulting to anyone it was not meant to be. Sometimes humor and sarcasm do not come through well on the internet and clearly this was one of those cases.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: MadMurph

Originally posted by: biodoc

. . . IHMO DC support of basic research of any kind is not a waste of power/electricity. The amount of power consumed by DC is trivial compared to all of society in general. . .

Agree.

FYI, to BrownTown, taltamir, hans007 faheyd, and any other lemmings of similar persuasion, even prime numbers have a social utility. All the encryption programs that protect your online data use prime numbers, so I wouldn't discount that, either. Funny how a human's first reaction to something they don't understand is usually negative.

I happen to be one of those people for whom Folding@Home has a personal significance as well as a social one: my father died of cancer, my mother is fighting lung cancer at this writing, and I lost a kidney to cancer. Whatever the cost, it's chump change compared to the cure. Come walk in my shoes before you slam something for which you obviously have a synapse lapse.

Cheers,
a dirty hippie

I ran a five computer BOINC cluster for over 5 years. (replacing individual computers with time). So I am hardly "attacking something I don't understanding"
I was actually hooked with slogans like "donate your SPARE computer cycles for science, it doesn't cost you anything"... As I learned more I just assumed it doesn't cost you MUCH... When I learned how much it DOES cost I stopped.

Also, I too have family members with cancer (and high risk of catching it). Doesn't make any difference about my opinions. I donate to research directly.

PS... tax deduction for hardware? WOW... how do I get on that bandwagon?

 

[biodoc]

hans007, both folding@home (stanford) and Rosetta@home (U washington) are research projects funded by NSF and NIH. Both are developing algorithms with different approaches that predict how proteins fold. Proteins are the machines of life. They carry out virtually every process in the human body and every disease known can be tracked down to some miss-regulation, miss-folding, etc of a protein or a set of proteins. If we can accurately determine the structure of protein quickly by computational methods or if we can use some of the thermodynamic cutting edge algorithms F@H is developing to do virtual screens of 10s of thousands of potential pre-drugs that bind and inhibit a disregulated protein/enzyme, then eventually these predrugs could be developed into drugs by chemists and biologists. Basic research takes time and sustained effort but I am absolutely convinced that this research will help develop new disease therapies.

We are volunteers in this effort to support basic research: hardware, time, electricity and we also have a little fun with team building and competition!

What do you all use your OC computers for? Perhaps a couple hours of running PRIME and then shut it down and pin a blue ribbon on it that says Stable @ 3.60GHz!

Come and join the fun at TeAm Anandtech and contribute your spare cycles to support basic research. I would suggest starting with F@H 'cause GLeeM is a great leader and lots of us are willing to help you out

Edit:misspelling and other errors!

 

[tenax]

let's remember what the original premise was back in the seti days (when i started crunching as well). the premise was simple..people are running their computers anyway, so why not share some cycles to DC projects. no skin off anyone's behind..on that basis, there was basically no reason not to..i'm not sure anyone conceived of it ever becoming as big as it has become. i don't have any strong opinions on it either way, simply because i don't know enough at this point to make a judgement whether it's worth it, but then again, there's many a charity that i have given to and i could ask the same question..has it REALLY made things better...and yet we keep giving. so, this is another form of giving....so i guess as i think about that, and on that basis, that alone makes it worthwhile (if you believe giving to others is a good thing)

it would be nice if i could get a tax deduction in return for it though

 

[Markfw]

If for no other reason than to test stability, F@H is a WAY better stability tester than prime. Try running your OC on 2 simultaneous instances of the SMP client for a week. If it doesn;t puke, or have an EUE (early unit end), then you are way more stable than prime stable !