Corrected title: Now the GOP has accomplished massive tax reform

[SMOGZINN]

Honestly we should just get rid of the filibuster and then this sunsetting nonsense wouldn't be necessary.

If you did that then you would have to get rid of reconciliation rules as well. Of course all that is a pipe dream. It would put us much to close to a representative democracy!

 

[SmCaudata]

I've lived in rural areas and cities. My family still lives in rural Minnesota. Gas is cheaper out there. Groceries and food are similar. My uncle lived in rural Iowa where houses can be had for $30k. The cheapest 800 square foot house near me is $200k.

Now, if we're talking Mountain towns, Hawaii, or Alaska, yes general goods cost more. But for the vast majority of people in the country, basic necessities are fairly consistent with the exception of housing.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

 

[K1052]

Maybe stay away from being in photos with the cash when you're trying to get a big tax cut for the wealthy passed. Just a thought.

 

[Jhhnn]

One of the things that American's really needs to do is demand that Congress remove the ability to 'sunset' things so that congress can manipulate the numbers. It is has just become a way for both parties to game the system. It is fundamentally dishonest.

So, that's Bothsiderism, right?

 

[K1052]

Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson just came out as a no on the tax bill. Complains about process and the corporate tax cut. Says he will not vote for the bill.

This complicates things significantly.

 

[Maxima1]

Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson just came out as a no on the tax bill. Complains about process and the corporate tax cut. Says he will not vote for the bill.

This complicates things significantly.

Nice. it's going to be really pathetic if they can't even get the tax bill through.

 

[K1052]

Nice. it's going to be really pathetic if they can't even get the tax bill through.

The problem with major tax changes has always been that the constituency is literally everyone, balancing all the interests sufficiently to pass a bill is challenging at a minimum.

Seems this senator is pissed he's been locked out of the decision making and wants a far more generous pass through provision than the bill has now. There's not money for that even after raiding the ACA mandate piggy bank.

 

[Jhhnn]

Nice. it's going to be really pathetic if they can't even get the tax bill through.

It will be a good thing if they leave it alone. It's really simple. Their intentions are obvious & what they want to do isn't good for America, just for themselves & their wealthiest donors. Those guys don't need tax cuts at all & it sure as Hell won't do the rest of us any good.

 

[Maxima1]

The problem with major tax changes has always been that the constituency is literally everyone, balancing all the interests sufficiently to pass a bill is challenging at a minimum.

Seems this senator is pissed he's been locked out of the decision making and wants a far more generous pass through provision than the bill has now. There's not money for that even after raiding the ACA mandate piggy bank.

Yes, but it's tax cuts. They're just so greedy that even a tax cut bill is unpopular because it's so slanted to the top.

 

[SMOGZINN]

So, that's Bothsiderism, right?

I try to avoid Bothsiderism, but there are issues in our politics that truly are not partisan. While the Republicans are much worse then the Democrats on most fronts, this has just become a standard part of politics. There is a rot in the core of American politics, and both sides are sick with it. One side is just already a bloated corpse.

 

[Jhhnn]

I try to avoid Bothsiderism, but there are issues in our politics that truly are not partisan. While the Republicans are much worse then the Democrats on most fronts, this has just become a standard part of politics. There is a rot in the core of American politics, and both sides are sick with it. One side is just already a bloated corpse.

Give us an example of when Dems played this sunset game over taxes & the budget. I honestly don't recall any.

Repubs are being utterly dishonest. If their tax proposals are supposed to sunset then things would go back to the way they are now, like with the assault weapons ban. That's not the proposal at all.

 

[evident]

Are there even any right wingers in here that support the plan? Please explain why

 

[trenchfoot]

Are there even any right wingers in here that support the plan? Please explain why

It's a blatantly obvious sellout to the very wealthy that is undeniable every which way it's looked at. In its present form, it compels every Repub legislator to commit political harakiri at the alter of the aristocrat class. And the aristocrat class, through this plan that benefits them so bountifully with more wealth that they will then sink right back into corrupting our politicians even further really don't give a rat's ass how they're perceived by the middle class and the poor with them being so drunk with power and influence as they are.

That's how arrogant and supremely confident they are that they feel they can demand anything they so desire from the Repubs in Congress given how these oligarchs-in-waiting see that the working class Repubs who they rely on for votes are locked in and immune to the reality that they are being used and abused by their supposed "champions of the middle class and the poor".

It's too bad that party loyalty, religious extremism and the hate of "the others" makes these working class folks blind to how the very wealthy are keeping them in their place, obedient, pliable and eager to be exploited over and over again.

 

[K1052]

Lawmakers apparently not aware of immediate automatic PAYGO spending cuts:

The Congressional Budget Office says the $1.5 trillion tax-cut proposal would trigger $25 billion in automatic spending cuts next year to Medicare, plus another $111 billion in reductions to other programs, including farm subsidies. That’s because of a law known as Paygo.

While some conservative Republicans would welcome the cuts, moderates in the party are likely to balk -- and President Donald Trump has promised repeatedly not to cut Medicare.

Waiving the automatic cuts could take 60 votes in the Senate, requiring support from at least eight Democrats in a chamber Republicans control 52-48.

The GOP could try to waive the cuts as part of the tax bill -- although that could anger the party’s deficit hawks -- or they could promise to do it later, which could worry moderates who in the meantime would be voting for a bill that cuts benefits to senior citizens.

Here’s the dilemma for Democrats: Should they help waive the spending reductions, even though that would help the GOP enact the tax cuts? Or should Democrats continue doing all they can to make the tax-cut plan difficult for Republicans to pass, even though recipients of Medicare and other programs would suffer and they could be blamed?

A number of Democratic and Republican lawmakers said Wednesday they weren’t aware of the issue.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...lawmakers-in-bind-over-medicare-spending-cuts

This is not bound to be a popular revelation to a lot of people. Kind of disposes with the idea that any pain will be felt after the 2018 midterms.

 

[Brainonska511]

Lawmakers apparently not aware of immediate automatic PAYGO spending cuts:





https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...lawmakers-in-bind-over-medicare-spending-cuts

This is not bound to be a popular revelation to a lot of people. Kind of disposes with the idea that any pain will be felt after the 2018 midterms.

I just caught a glimpse of that article, particularly about the potential waiving of cuts angering so-called deficit hawks. LOL. Waving $25 billion in cuts is a step too far in a tax cut that will cost $1.5 Trillion.

 

[fskimospy]

Lawmakers apparently not aware of immediate automatic PAYGO spending cuts:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...lawmakers-in-bind-over-medicare-spending-cuts

This is not bound to be a popular revelation to a lot of people. Kind of disposes with the idea that any pain will be felt after the 2018 midterms.

This happened repeatedly with the health care bill as well. The sheer incompetence is unbelievable. They are trying to rush things through because they don’t want the public to find out all the bad shit in it. Turns out the authors don’t even know all the bad shit in it.

 

[K1052]

Would be amazing to watch farm subsidies get cut. With low commodity prices, increased competition in the export markets that increasingly disadvantage US producers, and a president who considers them disposable from a trade perspective rural America is aiming for a super rude awakening.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Would be amazing to watch farm subsidies get cut. With low commodity prices, increased competition in the export markets that increasingly disadvantage US producers, and a president who considers them disposable from a trade perspective rural America is aiming for a super rude awakening.

"Mom and pop" farms don't exactly exist anymore. Do you really think big honchos really need subsidies?

Just find it funny to defend them but throw plenty of other megacorp subsidies/taxbreaks under the bus.

 

[Jhhnn]

"Mom and pop" farms don't exactly exist anymore. Do you really think big honchos really need subsidies?

Just find it funny to defend them but throw plenty of other megacorp subsidies/taxbreaks under the bus.

Not getting a tax cut isn't getting thrown under the bus.

 

[fskimospy]

"Mom and pop" farms don't exactly exist anymore. Do you really think big honchos really need subsidies?

Just find it funny to defend them but throw plenty of other megacorp subsidies/taxbreaks under the bus.

Yes, this weird cultural idea that the middle of America is a bunch of wooden farmhouses where salt of the earth people are tilling their own land is long, looooooong gone. It's one of those things that makes me crazy when people talking about repealing the estate tax talk about family farms being taken by the evil government. Farms in America are generally run by megacorporations and I agree with you, I see no reason to subsidize their bottom line.

K1052 is right though, in that people in rural America that work for these megacorporations are probably benefiting in some way from these subsidies either through jobs or higher wages. That's not a reason do to it, (after all if your goal is to subsidize their wages we could just do that directly) but it seems likely to me that they will find themselves hurt by the removal of those subsidies.

 

[Jhhnn]

The goal of farm subsidies is to stabilize production & prices of Ag products to assure a stable food supply. I don't pretend to understand the ins & outs of it very well but I'm loathe for Repubs to tinker with it.

 

[fskimospy]

The goal of farm subsidies is to stabilize production & prices of Ag products to assure a stable food supply. I don't pretend to understand the ins & outs of it very well but I'm loathe for Repubs to tinker with it.

They should be eliminated entirely. They cost us something like $20 billion a year for the purpose of subsidizing large corporations not because they are necessary, but because rural areas and megacorporations have disproportionate political power. To put it in perspective the individual mandate that Republicans want to eliminate costs something like $32 billion a year, so you can view farm subsidies as something like health insurance for 8 million people or so.

 

[theeedude]

Nice. it's going to be really pathetic if they can't even get the tax bill through.

GOP is like a rapist who can't get it up.

 

[Stokely]

There's a reason the tax reform in the 80s took years to do. It's a difficult balancing act.

Right now the balancing seems to be between:
- donors wanting their cuts, threatening no election money if they don't get it
- actually cutting taxes for the non-super-rich (and not just pretending to)
- not ballooning the deficit (for those that actually do care about it in a time when a non-Democrat is President....eh, who am I kidding)

Hard to see how these mutually-exclusive goals can be met....

 

[K1052]

Yes, this weird cultural idea that the middle of America is a bunch of wooden farmhouses where salt of the earth people are tilling their own land is long, looooooong gone. It's one of those things that makes me crazy when people talking about repealing the estate tax talk about family farms being taken by the evil government. Farms in America are generally run by megacorporations and I agree with you, I see no reason to subsidize their bottom line.

K1052 is right though, in that people in rural America that work for these megacorporations are probably benefiting in some way from these subsidies either through jobs or higher wages. That's not a reason do to it, (after all if your goal is to subsidize their wages we could just do that directly) but it seems likely to me that they will find themselves hurt by the removal of those subsidies.

I'm aware of the growth of large farms over the last couple decades, even those that aren't owned by a huge megacorp are multi-million dollar operations that have been gobbling up smaller farms steadily. As noted they still need a fair amount of humans to run them and the overall viability of the ventures weighs on the local economies.

I don't personally favor farm subsidies but the wringing out that the ag sector is going to get from every side will directly hurt those places that sent Republicans to Congress and Trump to the WH. That has political implications for the future.