Cops Raid FLDS Compound in Texas

[piasabird]

Note: Title Changed by request. The author is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and has absolutely no contact with either the RLDS or FLDS Church. I claim ignorance. I do not know nor have I ever known anyone that I was aware that practiced, is practicing, or plans on practicing Polygamy. I am aware that it existed in the early days of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I was not alive at that time.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/...as.ranch.ap/index.html

Added: Larry King Live video Link:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/vid...kl.inside.polygamy.cnn

Added: Claim by Ex-Wife of Babbies being Tortured to Break Them and instill fear!
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/vid.../ng.polygamy.crime.cnn

So I am reading this article and I cant help but wonder if the people living at this camp liked living the lifestyle they chose. What I cant help but wonder is how come TV producers havent offerred to make like a mini-series of their lives or something like that. This is so different and so amazing that I think it is and could be worth looking at.

Who is to say their life style is right or wrong? What I see is that any life style that is different from the norm is feared and mistrusted.

So is this a fishing expedition? What gives Texas the right to roust all of these people out of their homes and deny them their liberty and pursuit of happiness? It sounds like a thriving productive society to me. Maybe I dont agree with it, and maybe it is very open to the abuse of women, but maybe if it was just a little more open to the outside, and open to inspection it might be a workable society.

When you compare this FLDS (Edited) society to other societies like the Quakers, what makes this society so bad? Are we just a bunch of biggots that cant stand that these people choose to live this way? Better yet, if they choose to live in this manner what gives us the right to tell them they can not?

Maybe a few laws have been broken. However, if they did insure certain laws were not broken could we allow the people to have this lifestyle? Is polygomy so bad? I see the one barrier to polygamy is that men tend to abuse their power when they have it. We have seen this in different societies. Maybe Polygomy is so dangerous that men will always abuse the women when they are given a chance to. I am not saying all men choose to abuse women, but that there is too much of a chance for it in such a society.

However, you dont have to be a polygomist to abuse or even sexually abuse women. It just makes it easier too. I think what people fear is women are being forced into situations where their only option is being one of many wives, in a polygamist society. They could be told that outside society is evil and they can not make it in American Society without the protection that their chruch offers. This is a danger in a society has an Xenophobic culture.

However, the state could choose to work with these people in such a way that their lifestyle could be permitted, and women could be protected instead of treating them like animals and freaks.

 

[Arkaign]

Polygamy doesn't really bother me personally, if someone is dumb enough to want more than one wife, well sorry to say, the joke's probably on him.

Go read 'Under the Banner of Heaven'.

The problem isn't so much polygamy directly, but these little groups tend to want to marry very young (as young as 12 or 13, with 'arrangements' happening even younger) girls to older guys, usually 40+ years old.

I'm a pretty strict proponent of individual and religious liberty, but I draw the line at adults marrying/having sex with children 17 years of age and younger.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Maybe a few laws have been broken.

What makes it bad is the possibility that minors may have been coerced into sex, marriage, and were held against their wishes inside this enclave. Past that, who the hell cares what consenting adults spend their days doing - not me.

 

[PokerGuy]

I don't care if all these wackos want to hole themselves up in some compound or community. In fact, I don't care if they are polygamists or not, it's up to them how they want to live their lives. What I do care about is the kids who do not have a choice but be a part of the abusive 'religion' and the nutjob cult. Once there are kids involved, the state has an obligation to keep them safe from abuse, which includes forced marriage for 14-15 year old girls.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: piasabird

So is this a fishing expedition?

What gives Texas the right to roust all of these people out of their homes and deny them their liberty and pursuit of happiness?

It sounds like a thriving productive society to me.

They were productive but not producing money for the local Texas county coffers or the Federal government because they claimed exemption as a church.

Had they just registered as an offshore corporation they would not have been touched.

 

[piasabird]

So do we believe in innocent till proven guilty?

I have no Idea if these people paid taxes or not. They bought land so someone made some money somehow. That would indicate that they make money and are taxed. They have to be making some money to buy clothes or whatever. It is next to impossible to be completely self sufficient. I dont want to assume anything. However, the State uses the power of the Press to convict these people even before the public has even seen any evidence. It is like they are automatically assumed guilty in the press.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674


Had they just registered as an offshore corporation they would not have been touched.

LOL

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: piasabird
So do we believe in innocent till proven guilty?

I have no Idea if these people paid taxes or not. They bought land so someone made some money somehow. That would indicate that they make money and are taxed. They have to be making some money to buy clothes or whatever. It is next to impossible to be completely self sufficient. I dont want to assume anything. However, the State uses the power of the Press to convict these people even before the public has even seen any evidence. It is like they are automatically assumed guilty in the press.

It's not like they are charging most of the people with anything... as many posters already said, this is about child abuse/molestation. Something like 150 kids were taken, many of them young girls, and it is suspected that they've been forced into sexual relationships with older men.

 

[Vic]

Jeffs' church is FLDS, not RLDS. The RLDS church has moved away from the Mormonist movement and calls itself the Community of Christ now.

Polygamy is not something that I am opposed to. Whatever relationships that consenting adults choose to have between themselves is their own business.

The FLDS church OTOH has a proven history of child abuse, particularly with forcing young girls into marrying older men. It's not a lifestyle choice when you're forcing your 12 year-old daughter to be the 5th wife of your 40 year-old neighbor.

 

[Wreckem]

1. Children don't have the choice.
2. Most of the people in the compound were underaged girls.
3. Previously girls of this sect had been married at the age of 12-14 to 50+ year old men.
4. Anyone under the age 16 cannot get married in TX.
5. So anyone they've had sex with under 17 = stautory rape.
6. Crossing multiple state lines = federal crimes.

They arent just fishing. If they were doing that, they would have raided back when they caught Jeffs.

State, local, and federal agents are all over it.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Vic
Jeffs' church is FLDS, not RLDS. The RLDS church has moved away from the Mormonist movement and calls itself the Community of Christ now.

Polygamy is not something that I am opposed to. Whatever relationships that consenting adults choose to have between themselves is their own business.

The FLDS church OTOH has a proven history of child abuse, particularly with forcing young girls into marrying older men. It's not a lifestyle choice when you're forcing your 12 year-old daughter to be the 5th wife of your 40 year-old neighbor.

They are indoctrinated as soon as possible in their childhood. They are brainwashed. Its hard to say any of the females have a "choice."

 

[Modelworks]

The women there were assigned husbands.
You don't go to a 13 yr old girl and tell her, your marrying the 50 year old across the street.
If you don't you will burn in hell.

You also don't go around telling children that people outside the walls are all evil and will harm you if you leave. Thats psychological abuse.

These children were raised in fear their entire lives.
There is absolutely no comparison with the Amish or Quakers.
I have seen the Amish communities in Ohio.
They don't control their populations with fear.
They put out their beliefs and it is up to the individual to make their own decision.

What amazes me is that this place was allowed to operate for so long.
No one checked on the childrens education or well being ?
400 children and no one to help them until one girl made a complaint.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
The women there were assigned husbands.
You don't go to a 13 yr old girl and tell her, your marrying the 50 year old across the street.
If you don't you will burn in hell.

You also don't go around telling children that people outside the walls are all evil and will harm you if you leave. Thats psychological abuse.

These children were raised in fear their entire lives.
There is absolutely no comparison with the Amish or Quakers.
I have seen the Amish communities in Ohio.
They don't control their populations with fear.
They put out their beliefs and it is up to the individual to make their own decision.

What amazes me is that this place was allowed to operate for so long.
No one checked on the childrens education or well being ?
400 children and no one to help them until one girl made a complaint.

A lot of people across the world have arranged marriages - some are between young women and older men. The US government should tell those people how to live to... Isn't that what we are doing in the Middle east?

"Psychological abuse"... In other places of the world... "Psychological abuse" is allowing girls to watch TV and imitate the celebrities they see -- short skirts, sex, etc.. Did you hear the one about a bunch of teenager girls that beat their friend to put on youtube?

What they are doing in Texas is wrong. Where are the charges? Like someone said, there have been very few charges. This is a witch hunt.

 

[MadRat]

Hell, a lot of states are making home schooling untenable if not illegal. How is that enclave any different than asshats that come up with those anti-home schooling ideas?

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: MadRat
Hell, a lot of states are making home schooling untenable if not illegal. How is that enclave any different than asshats that come up with those anti-home schooling ideas?

Lolz?

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Vic
Jeffs' church is FLDS, not RLDS. The RLDS church has moved away from the Mormonist movement and calls itself the Community of Christ now.

Polygamy is not something that I am opposed to. Whatever relationships that consenting adults choose to have between themselves is their own business.

The FLDS church OTOH has a proven history of child abuse, particularly with forcing young girls into marrying older men. It's not a lifestyle choice when you're forcing your 12 year-old daughter to be the 5th wife of your 40 year-old neighbor.

There was a Washington Post article a few years back that kind of changed my views on whether polygamy among consenting adults was benign.

It turns out that in polygamous sects there's always a large oversupply of males relative to females. That leads to lots of disgruntled young males. To alleviate the problem, and in order to reduce competition for available females, many/most of the teenage boys are expelled from the group and forced to fend for themselves.

So you end up with what amounts to large scale abuse of young males that's part and parcel to polygamy.

And since the competition for females is SO fierce even with the expulsion of young males, there's ALWAYS incredible pressure on young females to make early marriage choices. Think about it: You're some highly successful 40-year-old and your aware of some sweet young 15- or 16-year-old that makes your dick hard. Are your REALLY going to sit around and let that young thang become mature enough to make a more adult decision, or are you going to offer big bucks to the parents to get that girl into your harem?

So I now have a hard time with the "consenting adults" argument - polygamous societies unavoidably abuse the young.

 

[Vic]

I wasn't referring to polygamous religious sects or societies with large numbers of people involved. Just your more casual family set-ups.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: eleison
A lot of people across the world have arranged marriages - some are between young women and older men. The US government should tell those people how to live to... Isn't that what we are doing in the Middle east?

"Psychological abuse"... In other places of the world... "Psychological abuse" is allowing girls to watch TV and imitate the celebrities they see -- short skirts, sex, etc.. Did you hear the one about a bunch of teenager girls that beat their friend to put on youtube?

What they are doing in Texas is wrong. Where are the charges? Like someone said, there have been very few charges. This is a witch hunt.

What the hell are you talking about?

Your first paragraph made no sense whatsoever. Yes, in some parts of the world 14-year-old girls and younger are married off to much older men. Let me let you in on a little secret: That doesn't happen because that's the ideal marriage situation for that child. It happens because the parents need the dowry to stay afloat themselves, or because the extra mouth to feed is sinking them. Have you ever heard of a wealthy Middle Eastern family's daughter being married off at 12? It doesn't happen because those families don't have the fiscal incentive to do it. They rather properly raise, educate and let their daughter find a mate that makes her happy.

Your second paragraph made no sense whatsoever. You're equating what girls watch on television - which could, you know, be turned off by a parent if it's so objectionable - to being forced into an incestual relationship at puberty. You're not making a case for relative morality. You're making a case for absolute stupidity.

What are the charges? Gee, let's see what the second paragraph of the article states: "Since last week, they have interviewed members of the polygamist sect looking for evidence that that girls younger than 16 were forced into marriages with older men." I wonder what the charges the authorities are looking at filing? I'm guessing your ignorance you've displayed of foreign culture is an offshoot of your reading disability?

You know, normally I'd be a little nicer but the sleazy moral relativism of this post is something I find a little sickening. You would think people with the ability to read, write and use a computer would know better.

 

[1prophet]

Waterboarding FLDS style

?Everything you did was monitored and controlled and everybody reported on everyone else,? she said. ?It was a police state. You were not allowed to make decisions in your life. I had no power over my life or the lives of my children. It was a terrible way to live.?

The alleged control began in infancy.

?The method he would use with infants was a form of water torture,? Jessop said of her former husband. ?He would spank the baby until it was screaming out of control, and then he would hold the baby faceup under a tap of running water so it couldn?t breathe. He would do this repeatedly. Sometimes, it would go on for an hour, until the baby was so exhausted it couldn?t cry anymore. This method he called ?breaking them.??

To a child, the abuse becomes normal, she said, and resistance becomes unthinkable to most. ?With this level of mind control, it?s something you?re born into and it?s generational. The babies born into this, they don?t stand a chance from the beginning,? she said.

Rest of story here

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: yllus


What the hell are you talking about?

Your first paragraph made no sense whatsoever. Yes, in some parts of the world 14-year-old girls and younger are married off to much older men. Let me let you in on a little secret: That doesn't happen because that's the ideal marriage situation for that child. It happens because the parents need the dowry to stay afloat themselves, or because the extra mouth to feed is sinking them. Have you ever heard of a wealthy Middle Eastern family's daughter being married off at 12? It doesn't happen because those families don't have the fiscal incentive to do it. They rather properly raise, educate and let their daughter find a mate that makes her happy.

Your second paragraph made no sense whatsoever. You're equating what girls watch on television - which could, you know, be turned off by a parent if it's so objectionable - to being forced into an incestual relationship at puberty. You're not making a case for relative morality. You're making a case for absolute stupidity.

What are the charges? Gee, let's see what the second paragraph of the article states: "Since last week, they have interviewed members of the polygamist sect looking for evidence that that girls younger than 16 were forced into marriages with older men." I wonder what the charges the authorities are looking at filing? I'm guessing your ignorance you've displayed of foreign culture is an offshoot of your reading disability?

You know, normally I'd be a little nicer but the sleazy moral relativism of this post is something I find a little sickening. You would think people with the ability to read, write and use a computer would know better.

Maybe one day, more Americans will go overseas and see how the rest of the world lives. Obviously, you are very close-mindedness. In India, arranged marriages of young women to older men by the parent is a common thing. There have been studies that show that arrange marriages last longer and the couples are more happy. Scientist have speculated that this could be due to parents, who are older, are able to make better choices than young people.

Wow... I cannot believe how people can be so close minded. "You would think people with the ability to read, write and use a computer would know better" Actually, I know several people who had arrange marriages -- OOooh Nooess!!! Don't worry. The wife actually liked that she had an arrange marriage compared to the "Sex in the city" life that she sees on American TV. FYI, I'm not born in the States.

With respect to the raid of hundreds of people. Where are the charges? I think there were only one.. When this witch hunt ends, there will be a lot of people traumatized by the US government and their swat teams.. A lot of innocent people.

May I suggests you visit other cultures and learn from them. Having the "My cluture is always right" attitudes make people from other cultures and countries hate the USA.

the folowing URL shows how other people chose to live their lives, clicking on it may blow yllus mind. Yes, there are other cultures and ways of thinking.. ..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...0/AR2006082000113.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Oa6wYA&feature=related

 

[MadRat]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: MadRat
Hell, a lot of states are making home schooling untenable if not illegal. How is that enclave any different than asshats that come up with those anti-home schooling ideas?

Lolz?

I don't think ramrodding people into one system is the answer, regardless if its the state-approved education or the church-approved education. They are both failed systems. Without home schooling they will start to run short of Rhodes Scholars, because the public schools are unable to pump them out at the same rate as the home schools. The latter source pumps them out disproportionately compared to even private schools!

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: Modelworks
The women there were assigned husbands.
You don't go to a 13 yr old girl and tell her, your marrying the 50 year old across the street.
If you don't you will burn in hell.

You also don't go around telling children that people outside the walls are all evil and will harm you if you leave. Thats psychological abuse.

These children were raised in fear their entire lives.
There is absolutely no comparison with the Amish or Quakers.
I have seen the Amish communities in Ohio.
They don't control their populations with fear.
They put out their beliefs and it is up to the individual to make their own decision.

What amazes me is that this place was allowed to operate for so long.
No one checked on the childrens education or well being ?
400 children and no one to help them until one girl made a complaint.

A lot of people across the world have arranged marriages - some are between young women and older men. The US government should tell those people how to live to... Isn't that what we are doing in the Middle east?

"Psychological abuse"... In other places of the world... "Psychological abuse" is allowing girls to watch TV and imitate the celebrities they see -- short skirts, sex, etc.. Did you hear the one about a bunch of teenager girls that beat their friend to put on youtube?

What they are doing in Texas is wrong. Where are the charges? Like someone said, there have been very few charges. This is a witch hunt.

Polygamy is ILLEGAL in the US.
Marriage under the age of 16 is illegal in TX.
Sexual relations between a 50 year old man and 17 and under females is illegal in TX.
Bringing a child across state lines and then having sex with her makes it all federal.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: yllus


What the hell are you talking about?

Your first paragraph made no sense whatsoever. Yes, in some parts of the world 14-year-old girls and younger are married off to much older men. Let me let you in on a little secret: That doesn't happen because that's the ideal marriage situation for that child. It happens because the parents need the dowry to stay afloat themselves, or because the extra mouth to feed is sinking them. Have you ever heard of a wealthy Middle Eastern family's daughter being married off at 12? It doesn't happen because those families don't have the fiscal incentive to do it. They rather properly raise, educate and let their daughter find a mate that makes her happy.

Your second paragraph made no sense whatsoever. You're equating what girls watch on television - which could, you know, be turned off by a parent if it's so objectionable - to being forced into an incestual relationship at puberty. You're not making a case for relative morality. You're making a case for absolute stupidity.

What are the charges? Gee, let's see what the second paragraph of the article states: "Since last week, they have interviewed members of the polygamist sect looking for evidence that that girls younger than 16 were forced into marriages with older men." I wonder what the charges the authorities are looking at filing? I'm guessing your ignorance you've displayed of foreign culture is an offshoot of your reading disability?

You know, normally I'd be a little nicer but the sleazy moral relativism of this post is something I find a little sickening. You would think people with the ability to read, write and use a computer would know better.

Maybe one day, more Americans will go overseas and see how the rest of the world lives. Obviously, you are very close-mindedness. In India, arranged marriages of young women to older men by the parent is a common thing. There have been studies that show that arrange marriages last longer and the couples are more happy. Scientist have speculated that this could be due to parents, who are older, are able to make better choices than young people.

Wow... I cannot believe how people can be so close minded. "You would think people with the ability to read, write and use a computer would know better" Actually, I know several people who had arrange marriages -- OOooh Nooess!!! Don't worry. The wife actually liked that she had an arrange marriage compared to the "Sex in the city" life that she sees on American TV. FYI, I'm not born in the States.

With respect to the raid of hundreds of people. Where are the charges? I think there were only one.. When this witch hunt ends, there will be a lot of people traumatized by the US government and their swat teams.. A lot of innocent people.

May I suggests you visit other cultures and learn from them. Having the "My cluture is always right" attitudes make people from other cultures and countries hate the USA.

the folowing URL shows how other people chose to live their lives, clicking on it may blow yllus mind. Yes, there are other cultures and ways of thinking.. ..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...0/AR2006082000113.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Oa6wYA&feature=related

Its called an ONGOING investigation. There will be more charges filed.

You have the Texas Rangers, Texas DPS, Texas CPS, and FBI working the case. In sex abuse cases YOU HAVE TO INVESTIGATE and then indicte. They've been in the compound for less than a week and it takes a lot of time to interview 400+ people. Sex abuse cases can take months of investigations before grand juries are paneled for indictments to be heard.

 

[PokerGuy]

eleison's rants are amusing, clearly the rants of a young, stupid and ill-informed person. Perhaps a remedial course in reading and comprehension might help......

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: eleison

Maybe one day, more Americans will go overseas and see how the rest of the world lives. Obviously, you are very close-mindedness. In India, arranged marriages of young women to older men by the parent is a common thing. There have been studies that show that arrange marriages last longer and the couples are more happy. Scientist have speculated that this could be due to parents, who are older, are able to make better choices than young people.

Wow... I cannot believe how people can be so close minded. "You would think people with the ability to read, write and use a computer would know better" Actually, I know several people who had arrange marriages -- OOooh Nooess!!! Don't worry. The wife actually liked that she had an arrange marriage compared to the "Sex in the city" life that she sees on American TV. FYI, I'm not born in the States.

With respect to the raid of hundreds of people. Where are the charges? I think there were only one.. When this witch hunt ends, there will be a lot of people traumatized by the US government and their swat teams.. A lot of innocent people.

May I suggests you visit other cultures and learn from them. Having the "My cluture is always right" attitudes make people from other cultures and countries hate the USA.

the folowing URL shows how other people chose to live their lives, clicking on it may blow yllus mind. Yes, there are other cultures and ways of thinking.. ..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...0/AR2006082000113.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Oa6wYA&feature=related

Did I say anything was wrong with arranged marriages? With polygamy? Let's revisit what I did state:

What makes it bad is the possibility that minors may have been coerced into sex, marriage, and were held against their wishes inside this enclave. Past that, who the hell cares what consenting adults spend their days doing - not me.

Get that? Coercion? Sexual abuse? Held against their will? Not polygamy or arranged marriage?

An arranged marriage between two adults is something entirely different than a 12-year-old being told that she will shortly be marrying a 40-year-old. Do you get it now? One revolves around people who have come of age and consent to the marriage, and the other involves a child who has made no such informed choice? It's a pretty stark difference.

Again, marriages in India between 12-year-olds and men twice their age aren't commonplace, and they aren't done by anyone other than the poor and perhaps the extremely religious. They're done strictly out of necessity. Furthermore, when the hell did "other people do it" make something good or right?

Try asking the wife if she would have preferred getting married before she had her first period. I bet she'd be ecstatic at the idea of bypassing the need to make decisions for herself right from the get-go. :disgust: