Convert from Islam to another religion and you must die!

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

I understand the problem you have with this being an official action under the "new" Afghanistan law that we helped set up, and I share your dislike for this sort of thing...but should we really be surprised? There is a reason the Taliban was the government there...that's exactly the kind of mentality that works in Afghanistan. Individuals might say they are glad they have "democracy", but what they really want is this kind of religious BS. Whatever form the government takes, it ultimatly reflects the ideas of the people in that country. Germany got away with claiming Hitler was some sort of fringe lunatic that hoodwinked them all, but don't believe it...Hitler was EXACTLY what the Germans at the time wanted from their government.

Reinsford, sorry but that is BS. While I dont know much about Afghanistan or if their elections were free nor do I know voter turnout and so forth. But I do know that this is BS even if this kind of behavior was elected, it doesnt mean it is what ppl want. Hitler never got more that 30 something percent in the elections (before those were turned obsolete) and I doubt voter turnout was 100%. Same in the US, Bush only got 50 something% with a voter turnout of what 60%? That does not mean it is necessarily what ppl want - it only is what they got - be it out of ignorance or because truly the majority wants it you cannot know.
Or take the last election in Germany - I voted for Merkel that doesnt mean she is what I wanted she only was less of what I dont... And I think it is like that for most ppl who go to elections

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: techs
Does anyone remember this thread about how U.S. soldiers were helping roundup gay Afghanis?
http://365gay.com/Newscon06/02/022706afgan.htm
US, Canada Round Up Gays In Afghanistan
The main task of the PRT's civil-military co-operation unit is improving the professionalism and effectiveness of Kandahar's security forces.

Changing the law falls far outside their mandate.

``We are in a different culture,'' said Maj. Ron Locke, head of the unit team.

``Different laws and different treatment standards are normal here. All we can do is try to influence them with advice and training.''



The U.S. spokesman said that we had to respect the Afhanistan laws and that was the law in Afghanistan. And yet there seemed to be no outrage.
But NOW thats its a straight Christian people speak out?
Talk about your hypocritical Christians and pandering politicians.

Wow.. that is so fvcked up on so many levels.. I don't even know where to start... Humanity doesn't even exist.. we are not civilized.. just animals with tailored clothing.

it's par for the course. torture or imprisonment of gays doesn't rate because most people don't give a sh1t.

people also don't seem to care about the women still being locked up in Afghanistan for such terrible crimes as deciding to leave their husband.

 

[palehorse]

yet, then again, homosexuality is very previlent in some villages in Afghanistan. Just outside of Bagram, there is a well known boy named "Gay Bob," roughly 15 years old. He is known for being the village's little boy-whore. There were occasions while I was there when local thugs would rape various teenage boys in the town late at night... (usually on Thursday nights for some reason.) it even turned into a running joke amongst all of the soldiers, and we would often laugh and joke saying "Happy Manlove thursday!" The boys themselves were the ones who told us about it, and they too made fun of Bob for it. (although he would often kick their butts in front of us when they did!)

Some reports even indicated that the rapes are considered "rights of passage" in various groups of thugs, police, or military units there.

The best that I could tell was that it all depended on the group. Some were adamently opposed to homosexuality, but others accepted it as an every-day aspect to growing up male.

so go figure...

 

[engineereeyore]

Yet, that kind of Government is just sick and wrong. I don't agree with the Islamic religion on every topic of religion, but I'd fight tooth and nail to allow them the right to that belief.

Same thing goes for the homosexuality that aidanjm brought up. I don't agree with it, but I'd fight tooth and nail to allow people the freedom to exercise it.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Yet, that kind of Government is just sick and wrong. I don't agree with the Islamic religion on every topic of religion, but I'd fight tooth and nail to allow them the right to that belief.

Same thing goes for the homosexuality that aidanjm brought up. I don't agree with it, but I'd fight tooth and nail to allow people the freedom to exercise it.

Assuming that you would fight "tooth and nail", why would you?

 

[Kadarin]

Quote from CNN.com:

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001.

This is a quote from a MODERATE Muslim cleric.

Islamic culture is WORTHLESS.

 

[csiro]

Hmm... I wonder if the Islamists willl agree if we executed a person who converted from Christianity to Islam. If that does not seem right, why would it be the other way around.

 

[Drift3r]

LoL - Afghanistan the success story ! One wonders how the failure known as Iraq will turn out.

 

[Bitek]

Originally posted by: CSMR

Originally posted by: techs
Does anyone remember this thread about how U.S. soldiers were helping roundup gay Afghanis?
http://365gay.com/Newscon06/02/022706afgan.htm
US, Canada Round Up Gays In Afghanistan
The main task of the PRT's civil-military co-operation unit is improving the professionalism and effectiveness of Kandahar's security forces.

Changing the law falls far outside their mandate.

The U.S. spokesman said that we had to respect the Afhanistan laws and that was the law in Afghanistan. And yet there seemed to be no outrage.
But NOW thats its a straight Christian people speak out?
Talk about your hypocritical Christians and pandering politicians.

You don't seem to understand that other people do not have your opinions. If Christians believed that Christianity is good and important to protect and that homosexual behaviour is good and important to protect then your confusion would be more justified.

Are you just trolling, or some fundamentalist wackjob?

Yes, Christianity is all about "protect your own, F eveyone else." :roll: If that's what Christianity is about, it is also as equally worthless and backwards and should be simularly eradicated as a plague on human decency.

 

[Bitek]

Originally posted by: Drift3r
LoL - Afghanistan the success story ! One wonders how the failure known as Iraq will turn out.

I'm glad we're pumping Billion$ into these stone-age MF'ers, perhaps in a few hundred years they will discover fire and learn to work bronse.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: B00ne

Originally posted by: Rainsford

I understand the problem you have with this being an official action under the "new" Afghanistan law that we helped set up, and I share your dislike for this sort of thing...but should we really be surprised? There is a reason the Taliban was the government there...that's exactly the kind of mentality that works in Afghanistan. Individuals might say they are glad they have "democracy", but what they really want is this kind of religious BS. Whatever form the government takes, it ultimatly reflects the ideas of the people in that country. Germany got away with claiming Hitler was some sort of fringe lunatic that hoodwinked them all, but don't believe it...Hitler was EXACTLY what the Germans at the time wanted from their government.

Reinsford, sorry but that is BS. While I dont know much about Afghanistan or if their elections were free nor do I know voter turnout and so forth. But I do know that this is BS even if this kind of behavior was elected, it doesnt mean it is what ppl want. Hitler never got more that 30 something percent in the elections (before those were turned obsolete) and I doubt voter turnout was 100%. Same in the US, Bush only got 50 something% with a voter turnout of what 60%? That does not mean it is necessarily what ppl want - it only is what they got - be it out of ignorance or because truly the majority wants it you cannot know.
Or take the last election in Germany - I voted for Merkel that doesnt mean she is what I wanted she only was less of what I dont... And I think it is like that for most ppl who go to elections

I'm sorry, perhaps I was a little harsh, but I think my point is still valid to some extent. Obviously it's not all that cut and dried, but I think the government of a country (especially one with a democratic form of government) reflects the broad strokes of the culture and ideals of that country. The US has a lot of Christians, but a government that supported the idea that converting from Christianity to another religion should be punishable by death would NEVER work. No major religious leader in the US would get very far supporting such a stupid idea, even among the more rabid religious people. Yet it's apparently widely popular in Afghanistan. Does that mean EVERYBODY supports it? Of course not, but it does imply some key issues in their culture.

To use your example of Bush. I personally don't appreciate it if someone has a personal issue with me because they don't like Bush, but I understand if they take issue with "Americans" as a result. As an individual, I don't feel responsible for his policies, but as a nation we damn sure are. We elected him. Maybe the problem was stupid Democrats who couldn't beat him, maybe the problem was that the silent majority didn't support him but didn't vote either, maybe the problem is our system is broken. But whatever the reason, we had an opportunity to NOT elect him, and we did anyways. He reflects on our country, and our system of government, simply by being there. The various reasons just reflect differently on us, we can't divorce ourselves from his influence.

 

[IdioticBuffoon]

Apostasy ... a very controversial aspect of Islam. I would like to hear from the resident Moslems what they think and feel about this particular case. Should shariah law be placed aside and ignored in dealing with this case or should it be applied fully, i.e. capital punishment for the apostate?

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Apostasy ... a very controversial aspect of Islam. I would like to hear from the resident Moslems what they think and feel about this particular case. Should shariah law be placed aside and ignored in dealing with this case or should it be applied fully, i.e. capital punishment for the apostate?

AFAIK, The Quran does not state "death to apostates"; rather it states "they will incur the wrath the god later". Statements such as , "There is no compulsion in religion" should be pretty clear.
The calls for death exist i the Hadith, or the saying of the prophet. Not all of the Hadith are accurate and there are various categories of "likelihood it is true". I'm not sure as how accurate each hadith is clarified, but when I see The Quran and Hadith conflict the Quran always trumps it. The question is whether or not that death in this life conflicts the "They will incur God's wrath". To me it does, because if God wanted death, he would have stated by. By stating that they will incur God's wrath I see it as "They had a lifetime to realize that leaving Islam was their biggest mistake, and now they must face it".

Also in a spiritual sense...if you won't want to be an XXX...ultimately nothing can force you. You may put on a facade but in your heart you don't want to be an XXX. Being a Muslim really brings you into this Islamic community with one another, but ultimately it is a connection between you and God...no one will force you to have that connection with God if you don't want it. So personally, I would say let them apostate; God will take it into his own hands later on.
Just like forcing a kid to go to school for 12 years will probably teach him nothing, forcing a person to beleive in God when they don't want to will yield the same failures

However for the Afghanistan issue there was a thread by dahunan where I went into more detail about this. You can see there for more info

 

[sumyungai]

I must say, this thread has been a real pleasure to read. It's been awhile since I've read a civil P&N thread without all the anti-Bush propaganda and personal attacks. If there were more threads like this, people wouldn't be so hessitant to post here. As for the OP, I was wondering if other countries in the Middle East, such as, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc. have similar laws when it comes to this or are they equally strict?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: sumyungai
I must say, this thread has been a real pleasure to read. It's been awhile since I've read a civil P&N thread without all the anti-Bush propaganda and personal attacks. If there were more threads like this, people wouldn't be so hessitant to post here. As for the OP, I was wondering if other countries in the Middle East, such as, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc. have similar laws when it comes to this or are they equally strict?

"Apostasy is legally punishable by death in the countries of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan and Mauritania at present." -- quoted from these links at Wikopedia: Apostasy in Islam or Sharia

or here: Islam: governing under Sharia

Sharia, or Islamic law, influences the legal code in most Islamic countries, but the extent of its impact varies widely. Avowedly secular Turkey is at one extreme. It doesn't base its laws on the Quran, and some government-imposed rules--such as a ban on women's veils--are contrary to practices often understood as Islamic. At the devout end of the spectrum are the Islamic Republic of Iran, where mullahs are the ultimate authority, and Saudi Arabia, a monarchy where the Quran is considered the constitution.

 

[sumyungai]

I take it that these people have been exposed to religion for so long that when you decide to take it away, they will have a feeling of emptiness, almost like a drug if you will. Over Centuries of religious believes, you can't just walk in and place a nonreligious government in and expect them to accept it. They've become resistant to change, and therefore, placing a nonreligious government in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan will take a lot of time.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Apostasy ... a very controversial aspect of Islam. I would like to hear from the resident Moslems what they think and feel about this particular case. Should shariah law be placed aside and ignored in dealing with this case or should it be applied fully, i.e. capital punishment for the apostate?

AFAIK, The Quran does not state "death to apostates"; rather it states "they will incur the wrath the god later". Statements such as , "There is no compulsion in religion" should be pretty clear.
The calls for death exist i the Hadith, or the saying of the prophet. Not all of the Hadith are accurate and there are various categories of "likelihood it is true". I'm not sure as how accurate each hadith is clarified, but when I see The Quran and Hadith conflict the Quran always trumps it. The question is whether or not that death in this life conflicts the "They will incur God's wrath". To me it does, because if God wanted death, he would have stated by. By stating that they will incur God's wrath I see it as "They had a lifetime to realize that leaving Islam was their biggest mistake, and now they must face it".

Also in a spiritual sense...if you won't want to be an XXX...ultimately nothing can force you. You may put on a facade but in your heart you don't want to be an XXX. Being a Muslim really brings you into this Islamic community with one another, but ultimately it is a connection between you and God...no one will force you to have that connection with God if you don't want it. So personally, I would say let them apostate; God will take it into his own hands later on.
Just like forcing a kid to go to school for 12 years will probably teach him nothing, forcing a person to beleive in God when they don't want to will yield the same failures

However for the Afghanistan issue there was a thread by dahunan where I went into more detail about this. You can see there for more info

I think the Hadiths are one of the biggest problems with Islam. That's where most of the insane ideas come from anyhow. The problem comes from the fact that there are so many of them, you can pretty much find any one that reinforces your position. Then governments can put Sharia law into effect and most people will accept it because it has at least some ground to stand on (considering they are all alledgedly from the Prophet himself). So then you have governments saying that you can't change religions or you'll face execution and point to a hadith as evidence and people accept it.

I think if Muhammed thought some of those more insane ideas like execution for apostacy were important, he would have included them in the Qu'ran.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: CSMR
In most muslim countries conversion is not allowed. The US government especially (since most other western governments don't care at all) needs to take stronger action to promote religious liberty.

Sure, then they can come to the US and change the laws they don't like.

Religious fundies are pretty much in control of the so-called parliament.

Just like in the US.

I personally believe the religion of Islam and the way in which it is practiced around the world is holding back many countries from developing into prosperous/democratic/free societies. Islam is so rigid, strict, and inflexible that it allows for almost no diversity or difference of opinion. Many may say that Islam is a peaceful religion, and I believe it is, but it is also a religion that is quite outdated with the times. Islam has not adapted to the modern world in the way that Christianity has, IMHO.

Christianity, Judaism, etc. is also guilty of being mired in things that applied to society thousands of years ago and continues in many ways to be one of the main barriers to human advancement.

How many more thousands of years before Catholics start treating women as equals and let them be priests (priestesses?).

 

[IdioticBuffoon]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
I think the Hadiths are one of the biggest problems with Islam. That's where most of the insane ideas come from anyhow. The problem comes from the fact that there are so many of them, you can pretty much find any one that reinforces your position. Then governments can put Sharia law into effect and most people will accept it because it has at least some ground to stand on (considering they are all alledgedly from the Prophet himself). So then you have governments saying that you can't change religions or you'll face execution and point to a hadith as evidence and people accept it.

I think if Muhammed thought some of those more insane ideas like execution for apostacy were important, he would have included them in the Qu'ran.

Mohammad never "wrote" the Koran. The Koran is very strictly God's OWN words, according to Islam. One can say that it is a collection of divine orations revealed upon Mohammad at various points in time throughout his life.

If you look at the Hadith (and Mohammad's entire life), they serve the purpose of explaining the Koran.

 

[DeeKnow]

Originally posted by: Theb
god is such an insecure a-hole

and what kind of a-hole are you??

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: techs
Does anyone remember this thread about how U.S. soldiers were helping roundup gay Afghanis?
http://365gay.com/Newscon06/02/022706afgan.htm
US, Canada Round Up Gays In Afghanistan
The main task of the PRT's civil-military co-operation unit is improving the professionalism and effectiveness of Kandahar's security forces.

Changing the law falls far outside their mandate.

``We are in a different culture,'' said Maj. Ron Locke, head of the unit team.

``Different laws and different treatment standards are normal here. All we can do is try to influence them with advice and training.''



The U.S. spokesman said that we had to respect the Afhanistan laws and that was the law in Afghanistan. And yet there seemed to be no outrage.
But NOW thats its a straight Christian people speak out?
Talk about your hypocritical Christians and pandering politicians.

Wow.. that is so fvcked up on so many levels.. I don't even know where to start... Humanity doesn't even exist.. we are not civilized.. just animals with tailored clothing.

it's par for the course. torture or imprisonment of gays doesn't rate because most people don't give a sh1t.

people also don't seem to care about the women still being locked up in Afghanistan for such terrible crimes as deciding to leave their husband.

the religion of peace strikes again.

http://www.petertatchell.net/international/sistani.htm
AYATOLLAH SISTANI SAYS DEATH TO GAYS
..Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani of Iraq has issued a death fatwa against lesbian and gay people. In a question and answer section of his website, he calls for the killing of homosexuals in the "worst, most severe way" (see Sistanti's text below)...

islam is incompatible with the universal declaration of human rights
Apostasy and Human Rights
http://www.iheu.org/node/1541

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

islam is incompatible with the universal declaration of human rights
Apostasy and Human Rights

So are the Christians in the White House
http://www.iheu.org/node/2167

 

[IdioticBuffoon]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
islam is incompatible with the universal declaration of human rights

Nice. You exude such wisdom all day long or is that just a spur of the moment kinda thing? :disgust: