Convert from Islam to another religion and you must die!

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: judasmachine
I thought the taliban was out of power.

Afghan culture is very very "poor".

Lack of education. You can blame Russia. They invaded and destroyed the country. Look at the history of what they did to Afghanistan. Russia should be labeled terrorist organization.

If someone catches their daugther seeing a boy .. oh man.. they both be dead.

umm, just for the record, there wasn't much there that the Russians could destroy. In fact, most of the infrastructure that IS there was built BY the Russians during the 80's...oh, and by the way, at the time, we did basically label Russia as global terrorists!

I digress.

I could probably write a volume trying to explain Afghan culture, but I'll leave it at this:

For several thousand years now, there has never been a successful non-fanatical central government in Afghanistan. There has also never been a sitting government in Kabul with much influence beyond 100 miles in any direction. (Besides the Taliban, but they used fear as their only tool for control, similar to communism... Believe it or not, the Taliban centrally and successfully controled more territory in Afghanistan than any other Afghan government in history!). Afghanistan is a primarily tribal culture, which even now sees very little influence from those in Kabul. (There were villages we visited deep in the mountains who thought we were Russians when we showed up! That is how little they cared for, or worried about, what goes on in Kabul! They didn't even know that the Russians had been defeated and removed 15 years prior!)

Not to mention, there is only one paved road in Afghanistan outside of the cities, called "Ring Road." Just how much influence can any central government hope to have when the villages that do not lie directly on that road are impossible to get to, for 1/2 of the year (snow, mud, etc), without a plane or helicopter!? It will be a long time before the infrastructure is in place to overcome that issue, let alone "bringing democracy to the people."

That said, whatever form of democracy that takes root in Kabul will barely resemble our own, so everyone can stop believing that our injustices will equal their injustices... that's a pipedream! Just as democracies elsewhere in the world barely remble ours. It's the individual ideologies and status quo of each land that will determine the specifics to flesh out their democratic processes.

Then again, this arrested man WILL get to have a trial in court. (And trials in front of real courts are certainly a new addition to the government of Afghanistan, trust me) During our own country's history, the courts ruled in various ways depending on the status quo and ideology of the times. Perhaps this man will be the precident used in the future to overturn that Islamic conversion law. We don't know yet... If not, then perhaps the next will be the one! Or perhaps hundreds or thousands of citizens will begin to convert, and the government there will be forced to change their laws, or face international trials for genocide! THAT is how democracies take shape! You must give it time to self-evolve... you can't just hand them a How-to document with a copy of our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and say "OK, GO!"

There is no recipe for cooking up an Insta-Democracy. It's a process that will take time; and by that, I mean decades! (if not longer...)

 

[conjur]

Rock on!

More Taliban-style "democracy" being spread by the mentally insane running this country into the ground!

 

[CPA]

and I was told to believe by the PC crowd that it was only the radical muslims that wanted to kill non-muslims.

 

[Theb]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Theb
god is such an insecure a-hole

that was intelligent...considering this whole thread actually has nothing to do directly with God....

These are god's rules, he beamed them directly into Mohammed's head then Mohammed transcribed them verbatim.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: judasmachine
I thought the taliban was out of power.

Afghan culture is very very "poor".

Lack of education. You can blame Russia. They invaded and destroyed the country. Look at the history of what they did to Afghanistan. Russia should be labeled terrorist organization.

If someone catches their daugther seeing a boy .. oh man.. they both be dead.

umm, just for the record, there wasn't much there that the Russians could destroy. In fact, most of the infrastructure that IS there was built BY the Russians during the 80's...oh, and by the way, at the time, we did basically label Russia as global terrorists!

I digress.

I could probably write a volume trying to explain Afghan culture, but I'll leave it at this:

For several thousand years now, there has never been a successful non-fanatical central government in Afghanistan. There has also never been a sitting government in Kabul with much influence beyond 100 miles in any direction. (Besides the Taliban, but they used fear as their only tool for control, similar to communism... Believe it or not, the Taliban centrally and successfully controled more territory in Afghanistan than any other Afghan government in history!). Afghanistan is a primarily tribal culture, which even now sees very little influence from those in Kabul. (There were villages we visited deep in the mountains who thought we were Russians when we showed up! That is how little they cared for, or worried about, what goes on in Kabul! They didn't even know that the Russians had been defeated and removed 15 years prior!)

Not to mention, there is only one paved road in Afghanistan outside of the cities, called "Ring Road." Just how much influence can any central government hope to have when the villages that do not lie directly on that road are impossible to get to, for 1/2 of the year (snow, mud, etc), without a plane or helicopter!? It will be a long time before the infrastructure is in place to overcome that issue, let alone "bringing democracy to the people."

That said, whatever form of democracy that takes root in Kabul will barely resemble our own, so everyone can stop believing that our injustices will equal their injustices... that's a pipedream! Just as democracies elsewhere in the world barely remble ours. It's the individual ideologies and status quo of each land that will determine the specifics to flesh out their democratic processes.

Then again, this arrested man WILL get to have a trial in court. (And trials in front of real courts are certainly a new addition to the government of Afghanistan, trust me) During our own country's history, the courts ruled in various ways depending on the status quo and ideology of the times. Perhaps this man will be the precident used in the future to overturn that Islamic conversion law. We don't know yet... If not, then perhaps the next will be the one! Or perhaps hundreds or thousands of citizens will begin to convert, and the government there will be forced to change their laws, or face international trials for genocide! THAT is how democracies take shape! You must give it time to self-evolve... you can't just hand them a How-to document with a copy of our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and say "OK, GO!"

There is no recipe for cooking up an Insta-Democracy. It's a process that will take time; and by that, I mean decades! (if not longer...)

Russia carpet bombed Afghanistan. What they didn't carpet bombed they "protected" ..Kabul.

Have you not seen Afghanistan?
The buildings are all destroyed.
This happened during the Russian War.

What are you talking about "most was built by Russia."?

Afghanistan is a country where buildings are destroyed not rebuilt. Blame Russia.

Look at what Russia did with Chechnya.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Russia carpet bombed Afghanistan. What they didn't carpet bombed they "protected" ..Kabul.

Have you not seen Afghanistan?
The buildings are all destroyed.
This happened during the Russian War.

What are you talking about "most was built by Russia."?

Afghanistan is a country where buildings are destroyed not rebuilt. Blame Russia.

Look at what Russia did with Chechnya.

1) It is a FACT that alot of the basic infrastructure was built during the 80's while the Russians occupied various parts of the country. (large bases, some roads, power lines, etc) They built these things so as to make their own occupation a little easier to manage... (they also blew most of it up again before they left...)

2) 90% of the country was, in fact, bombed, mined, and rocketed. this was done by both Russia AND the Taliban in various parts of the country, at various times during the last 30 years or so.

3) Of course I blame Russia for most of the destruction.. duh. But they were not the only ones to rocket various towns and cities during the last 30 years...

4) I just spent a year in Afghanistan in the US Infantry, so yes, I've seen more of Afghanistan than I ever wanted to see, thank you very much!

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
2) 90% of the country was, in fact, bombed, mined, and rocketed. this was done by both Russia AND the Taliban at the behest of USA in various parts of the country, at various times during the last 30 years or so.

Fixed. The arms and ammo didn't just drop from the sky...

 

[firewall]

Afghan Convert May Be Unfit for Trial

KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan man facing a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity may be mentally unfit to stand trial, a state prosecutor said Wednesday.

Abdul Rahman, 41, has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country's Islamic laws. His trial started last week and he confessed to becoming a Christian 16 years ago. If convicted, he could be executed.

But prosecutor Sarinwal Zamari said questions have been raised about his mental fitness.

"We think he could be mad. He is not a normal person. He doesn't talk like a normal person," he told The Associated Press.

Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to President Hamid Karzai, said Rahman would undergo a psychological examination.

"Doctors must examine him," he said. "If he is mentally unfit, definitely Islam has no claim to punish him. He must be forgiven. The case must be dropped."

It was not immediately clear when he would be examined or when the trial would resume. Authorities have barred attempts by the AP to see Rahman and he is not believed to have a lawyer.

A Western diplomat in Kabul and a human rights advocate ? both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter ? said the government was desperately searching for a way to drop the case because of the reaction it has caused.

The United States, Britain and other countries that have troops in
Afghanistan have voiced concern about Rahman's fate.

The Bush administration Tuesday issued a subdued appeal to Kabul to let Rahman practice his faith in safety. German Roman Catholic Cardinal Karl Lehmann said the trial sent an "alarming signal" about freedom of worship in Afghanistan.

The case is believed to be the first of its kind in Afghanistan and highlights a struggle between religious conservatives and reformists over what shape Islam should take there four years after the ouster of the fundamentalist Taliban regime.

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death. The state-sponsored Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission has called for Rahman to be punished, arguing he clearly violated Islamic law.

The case has received widespread attention in Afghanistan where many people are demanding Rahman be severely punished.

"For 30 years, we have fought religious wars in this country and there is no way we are going to allow an Afghan to insult us by becoming Christian," said Mohammed Jan, 38, who lives opposite Rahman's father, Abdul Manan, in Kabul. "This has brought so much shame."

Rahman is believed to have converted from Islam to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in the Pakistani city of Peshawar.

He then moved to Germany for nine years before returning to Kabul in 2002, after the ouster of the hard-line Taliban regime.

Police arrested him last month after discovering him in possession of a Bible during questioning over a dispute for custody of his two daughters. Prosecutors have offered to drop the charges if Rahman converts back to Islam, but he has refused.

The Karzai administration is a failure. Now they are just trying to create excuses to save face.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: asadasif

Originally posted by: palehorse74
2) 90% of the country was, in fact, bombed, mined, and rocketed. this was done by both Russia AND the Taliban at the behest of USA in various parts of the country, at various times during the last 30 years or so.

Fixed. The arms and ammo didn't just drop from the sky...

lol, yes it did! AFTER we gave it them and they fired it on the Russians! For the record, however, we actually gave the ammo to the Mujahideen, not the Taliban; and not all Mujahideen later sided with the Taliban. Alot of them continued to fight against the Taliban once they had taken control. (such as the Northern Alliance).

And those are just the well-known examples. The infighting in Afganistan over the last 30 years would give you a real headache if you tried to list every rivalry and conflict...

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: asadasif
Afghan Convert May Be Unfit for Trial

KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan man facing a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity may be mentally unfit to stand trial, a state prosecutor said Wednesday.

Abdul Rahman, 41, has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under this country's Islamic laws. His trial started last week and he confessed to becoming a Christian 16 years ago. If convicted, he could be executed.

But prosecutor Sarinwal Zamari said questions have been raised about his mental fitness.

"We think he could be mad. He is not a normal person. He doesn't talk like a normal person," he told The Associated Press.

Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to President Hamid Karzai, said Rahman would undergo a psychological examination.

"Doctors must examine him," he said. "If he is mentally unfit, definitely Islam has no claim to punish him. He must be forgiven. The case must be dropped."

It was not immediately clear when he would be examined or when the trial would resume. Authorities have barred attempts by the AP to see Rahman and he is not believed to have a lawyer.

A Western diplomat in Kabul and a human rights advocate ? both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter ? said the government was desperately searching for a way to drop the case because of the reaction it has caused.

The United States, Britain and other countries that have troops in
Afghanistan have voiced concern about Rahman's fate.

The Bush administration Tuesday issued a subdued appeal to Kabul to let Rahman practice his faith in safety. German Roman Catholic Cardinal Karl Lehmann said the trial sent an "alarming signal" about freedom of worship in Afghanistan.

The case is believed to be the first of its kind in Afghanistan and highlights a struggle between religious conservatives and reformists over what shape Islam should take there four years after the ouster of the fundamentalist Taliban regime.

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death. The state-sponsored Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission has called for Rahman to be punished, arguing he clearly violated Islamic law.

The case has received widespread attention in Afghanistan where many people are demanding Rahman be severely punished.

"For 30 years, we have fought religious wars in this country and there is no way we are going to allow an Afghan to insult us by becoming Christian," said Mohammed Jan, 38, who lives opposite Rahman's father, Abdul Manan, in Kabul. "This has brought so much shame."

Rahman is believed to have converted from Islam to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in the Pakistani city of Peshawar.

He then moved to Germany for nine years before returning to Kabul in 2002, after the ouster of the hard-line Taliban regime.

Police arrested him last month after discovering him in possession of a Bible during questioning over a dispute for custody of his two daughters. Prosecutors have offered to drop the charges if Rahman converts back to Islam, but he has refused.

The Karzai administration is a failure. Now they are just trying to create excuses to save face.

how so? by what means do you measure their failure or success? just curious...

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
how so? by what means do you measure their failure or success? just curious...

They haven't spoken about changing the law which caused this. They are just trying to avoid the conviction of the man by presenting excuses. Furthermore, the administartion, even now, barely has much of a control on the country and just keeps playing blame games about rogue elements instead of actually doing anything about it. Drugs (opium production, etc) are increasing and the Karzai administration is barely doing anything to curtail it right now before it develops any more. Just a few examples...

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: asadasif

Originally posted by: palehorse74
how so? by what means do you measure their failure or success? just curious...

They haven't spoken about changing the law which caused this. They are just trying to avoid the conviction of the man by presenting excuses. Furthermore, the administartion, even now, barely has much of a control on the country and just keeps playing blame games about rogue elements instead of actually doing anything about it. Drugs (opium production, etc) are increasing and the Karzai administration is barely doing anything to curtail it right now before it develops any more. Just a few examples...

for that I must point to what I've already written... see below.

For several thousand years now, there has never been a successful non-fanatical central government in Afghanistan. There has also never been a sitting government in Kabul with much influence beyond 100 miles in any direction. (Besides the Taliban, but they used fear as their only tool for control, similar to communism... Believe it or not, the Taliban centrally and successfully controled more territory in Afghanistan than any other Afghan government in history!). Afghanistan is a primarily tribal culture, which even now sees very little influence from those in Kabul. (There were villages we visited deep in the mountains who thought we were Russians when we showed up! That is how little they cared for, or worried about, what goes on in Kabul! They didn't even know that the Russians had been defeated and removed 15 years prior!)

Not to mention, there is only one paved road in Afghanistan outside of the cities, called "Ring Road." Just how much influence can any central government hope to have when the villages that do not lie directly on that road are impossible to get to, for 1/2 of the year (snow, mud, etc), without a plane or helicopter!? It will be a long time before the infrastructure is in place to overcome that issue, let alone "bringing democracy to the people."

That said, whatever form of democracy that takes root in Kabul will barely resemble our own, so everyone can stop believing that our injustices will equal their injustices... that's a pipedream! Just as democracies elsewhere in the world barely remble ours. It's the individual ideologies and status quo of each land that will determine the specifics to flesh out their democratic processes.

Then again, this arrested man WILL get to have a trial in court. (And trials in front of real courts are certainly a new addition to the government of Afghanistan, trust me) During our own country's history, the courts ruled in various ways depending on the status quo and ideology of the times. Perhaps this man will be the precident used in the future to overturn that Islamic conversion law. We don't know yet... If not, then perhaps the next will be the one! Or perhaps hundreds or thousands of citizens will begin to convert, and the government there will be forced to change their laws, or face international trials for genocide! THAT is how democracies take shape! You must give it time to self-evolve... you can't just hand them a How-to document with a copy of our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and say "OK, GO!"

There is no recipe for cooking up an Insta-Democracy. It's a process that will take time; and by that, I mean decades! (if not longer...)

 

[flyfish]

Originally posted by: Duckzilla

Originally posted by: DVK916
Another reason why religion needs to be cleansed from this world. This world can never be safe until this type of belief is removed.

Lets start with Islam and see how it goes. I bet we don't have to go any farther.

I wish you were not correct, but I'm afraid you most certainly are.

I know they say that 99.9% of Muslims are peaceful, but I would also say that if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Ah, democracy in Afghanistan, courtesy the good old USA - you go girl !

 

[Steeplerot]

wrong thread :/

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: 1prophet

Originally posted by: dahunan
These nuts don't believe in ANY GOD ..

There is no such God that would murder someone for their beliefs.. EVER

God seems cool.. but his followers are some truly scary MF'ers.

I agree with you 100 percent about these followers who claim to be acting on God's behalf, what bothers me is that this is the type of mentality that we were supposed to eradicate and it looks like we have failed, and it has the Afghanistan's government stamp of approval that we helped install.:|

In most muslim countries conversion is not allowed. The US government especially (since most other western governments don't care at all) needs to take stronger action to promote religious liberty.

 

[techs]

Does anyone remember this thread about how U.S. soldiers were helping roundup gay Afghanis?
http://365gay.com/Newscon06/02/022706afgan.htm
US, Canada Round Up Gays In Afghanistan
The main task of the PRT's civil-military co-operation unit is improving the professionalism and effectiveness of Kandahar's security forces.

Changing the law falls far outside their mandate.

``We are in a different culture,'' said Maj. Ron Locke, head of the unit team.

``Different laws and different treatment standards are normal here. All we can do is try to influence them with advice and training.''



The U.S. spokesman said that we had to respect the Afhanistan laws and that was the law in Afghanistan. And yet there seemed to be no outrage.
But NOW thats its a straight Christian people speak out?
Talk about your hypocritical Christians and pandering politicians.

 

[dexvx]

Its not really a failure of religion, it's an example of why democracy is not the cure all to everything. You have people who have been repressed for decades, and all of a sudden you want them to create a rational civilization?

Its being repeated in Iraq. Religious fundies are pretty much in control of the so-called parliament.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: techs
Does anyone remember this thread about how U.S. soldiers were helping roundup gay Afghanis?
http://365gay.com/Newscon06/02/022706afgan.htm
US, Canada Round Up Gays In Afghanistan
The main task of the PRT's civil-military co-operation unit is improving the professionalism and effectiveness of Kandahar's security forces.

Changing the law falls far outside their mandate.

``We are in a different culture,'' said Maj. Ron Locke, head of the unit team.

``Different laws and different treatment standards are normal here. All we can do is try to influence them with advice and training.''



The U.S. spokesman said that we had to respect the Afhanistan laws and that was the law in Afghanistan. And yet there seemed to be no outrage.
But NOW thats its a straight Christian people speak out?
Talk about your hypocritical Christians and pandering politicians.

Wow.. that is so fvcked up on so many levels.. I don't even know where to start... Humanity doesn't even exist.. we are not civilized.. just animals with tailored clothing.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

I personally believe the religion of Islam and the way in which it is practiced around the world is holding back many countries from developing into prosperous/democratic/free societies. Islam is so rigid, strict, and inflexible that it allows for almost no diversity or difference of opinion. Many may say that Islam is a peaceful religion, and I believe it is, but it is also a religion that is quite outdated with the times. Islam has not adapted to the modern world in the way that Christianity has, IMHO.

I personally believe that if Islam, it's followers, and religious leaders do not change and adapt to the modern world there will be problems for many years to come.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
I personally believe the religion of Islam and the way in which it is practiced around the world is holding back many countries from developing into prosperous/democratic/free societies. Islam is so rigid, strict, and inflexible that it allows for almost no diversity or difference of opinion. Many may say that Islam is a peaceful religion, and I believe it is, but it is also a religion that is quite outdated with the times. Islam has not adapted to the modern world in the way that Christianity has, IMHO.

I personally believe that if Islam, it's followers, and religious leaders do not change and adapt to the modern world there will be problems for many years to come.

I agree with you, it seems that a area needs reginal stability and a large measure of prosperity though to tame extremism in religions though.Neither of which the mideast has had in quite a long time. It is in a pretty unlucky location geographiclly it seems though, being in the center of everything.

Sometimes I wonder if that has something to do with it.

Still though Indonesia doesent make much sense then.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
I personally believe the religion of Islam and the way in which it is practiced around the world is holding back many countries from developing into prosperous/democratic/free societies. Islam is so rigid, strict, and inflexible that it allows for almost no diversity or difference of opinion. Many may say that Islam is a peaceful religion, and I believe it is, but it is also a religion that is quite outdated with the times. Islam has not adapted to the modern world in the way that Christianity has, IMHO.

I personally believe that if Islam, it's followers, and religious leaders do not change and adapt to the modern world there will be problems for many years to come.

Change will not come until the people can openly question their religion and its leaders without fear of reprisal.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Originally posted by: 1prophet

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
I personally believe the religion of Islam and the way in which it is practiced around the world is holding back many countries from developing into prosperous/democratic/free societies. Islam is so rigid, strict, and inflexible that it allows for almost no diversity or difference of opinion. Many may say that Islam is a peaceful religion, and I believe it is, but it is also a religion that is quite outdated with the times. Islam has not adapted to the modern world in the way that Christianity has, IMHO.

I personally believe that if Islam, it's followers, and religious leaders do not change and adapt to the modern world there will be problems for many years to come.

Change will not come until the people can openly question their religion and its leaders without fear of reprisal.

Well, if that is the case I say the US should pull out of entirely and let the people themselves overthrow their own governments. If they want to live under oppression that is their choice, and if they want a free society let them build it themselves.

If we look at Iraq, we removed their dictator for them and now they are choosing to have a theocratic government. They don't even want democracy so this whole mission seems pointless to me.

 

[zephyrprime]

Throughout history, theocracy has been a very popular form of government. What did people honestly think would happen when Afghanistan and Iraq were liberated? It's not that those peoples don't believe in democracy - they don't believe modernity. They believe in religion. They actually kinda do believe in democracy but they believe in a theocratic, sharia enforcing form of democracy.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: techs
Does anyone remember this thread about how U.S. soldiers were helping roundup gay Afghanis?
http://365gay.com/Newscon06/02/022706afgan.htm
US, Canada Round Up Gays In Afghanistan
The main task of the PRT's civil-military co-operation unit is improving the professionalism and effectiveness of Kandahar's security forces.

Changing the law falls far outside their mandate.

The U.S. spokesman said that we had to respect the Afhanistan laws and that was the law in Afghanistan. And yet there seemed to be no outrage.
But NOW thats its a straight Christian people speak out?
Talk about your hypocritical Christians and pandering politicians.

You don't seem to understand that other people do not have your opinions. If Christians believed that Christianity is good and important to protect and that homosexual behaviour is good and important to protect then your confusion would be more justified.