Contagion spreading among the vaccinated

[eikelbijter]

Nope not kidding it is suspicious.
Also article from four days ago Osterholm recommends people be vaccinated

Virus Expert Just Issued Chilling Warning — Eat This Not That

The new COVID Delta variant will soon become the dominant form of the virus in America, and has already caused delays and deaths in the UK.

www.eatthis.com

And about a week ago he said there should be more mandates (mask and vaccination)

COVID-19: Mask, vaccine mandates rise along with delta variant

New cases are on the rise in all but one state.

www.knoe.com

There are plenty of results from this guys and they are all consistent. Just admit you were wrong the Oracle changed his opinion or communicated the original opinion poorly.

Also I am waiting for a simple explanation of what you are trying to say because as I said earlier we all are obviously too dumb to understand your words. You need to simplify them so we all can understand.

We have no idea how effective our vaccines will be against COVID long term. After all, we just saw a NEJM study that said the Pfizer vaccine is almost 90% effective at preventing infection even for the current variants. This was of course my point from the beginning, that your conclusion was unwarranted considering the available data. If it remains ~90% effective as it has against all variants so far, then we're good to go.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891

Even if it doesn't, considering how quickly and easily we can develop new iterations of this vaccine even if there are significant mutations that lower its efficacy in the future we can easily deploy highly effective vaccines for those as well. (moderna designed its vaccine in two days) That's not even taking into account how a third dose may affect immunity. (hepatitis vaccine is a 3 dose series, after all) You took one study and ran with it while not accounting for other data that indicates a dramatically different picture. When informed of this you insulted people.

The correct answer is we don't know at the moment. You should admit you were wrong and revise your opinion accordingly. That's how you encourage intelligent conversation.

Wrong how? I already said even at 90% effectiveness, and I promise you that number will go down with future variants, the suggestion that we can eradicate this virus is foolish at best and disingenuous at worst. That's BEEN my one and only point and I haven't heard a single argument that would disprove that.

 

[eikelbijter]

You are setting yourself up for failure here my friend.
You point at them damn libtards, but right now it seems like you are the one up in that tree with no real plan for how to descend from it again.
Pride. My second favorite sin.
Anyway, the vaccines have proven very effective vs. the variants PLUS, as I understand it, new vaccines is being pushed as to stand ready for when/if it mutates beyond the current crop of vaccines we can quickly engineer new ones and mass produce.
So this specific point about measles not readily mutating... is moot.

I have no pride in this matter, I don't even know where THAT accusation is coming from.

Saying something is "very effective" without specifying what that means is about as unscientific as it gets so I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

The point about measles was in relation to the, in my idea flawed belief, that with enough vaccination we can eradicate Covid. It's simply not true.

 

[cytg111]

OK, he says that "the typical face cloth covering over your face often doesn't do much to actually reduce the amount of virus you inhale in.. He explains that, if you wear a mask and someone else smokes, you smell it. "Those are aerosols."

Have you seen people with a cloth mask on breathe outside in cold enough air to cause condensation? Those clouds of steam coming out the top and the sides are aerosols.

Listen, I never said those masks do NOTHING. But if you know anything about math you realize that a FLATTENED exponential curve will still go all the way, it will STILL reach 100%, if only a bit later.

Agreed. But most people dont use a cloth do they? I hope not.
I think the standard is "type IIR face mask" here.

 

[fskimospy]

Wrong how? I already said even at 90% effectiveness, and I promise you that number will go down with future variants, the suggestion that we can eradicate this virus is foolish at best and disingenuous at worst. That's BEEN my one and only point and I haven't heard a single argument that would disprove that.

No, you said this about a 90% effective vaccine:

"Effectively halt"? You need to go back to school my friend. Exponential growth that's slowed by 90% will STILL get to 100%, just a little later, which is EXACTLY my point.

This is false. Can you admit this statement is false? Otherwise, can you explain when I'll be coming down with Measles?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Wrong how? I already said even at 90% effectiveness, and I promise you that number will go down with future variants, the suggestion that we can eradicate this virus is foolish at best and disingenuous at worst. That's BEEN my one and only point and I haven't heard a single argument that would disprove that.

39% boss
Just so dummy me understands
Is your point this and future variants will reduce the 90% effectiveness? Do you agree that any mask properly worn reduces infection per what we know right now?

Yes/No or explain in simple direct words please.

 

[cytg111]

I have no pride in this matter, I don't even know where THAT accusation is coming from.

Saying something is "very effective" without specifying what that means is about as unscientific as it gets so I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

The point about measles was in relation to the, in my idea flawed belief, that with enough vaccination we can eradicate Covid. It's simply not true.

Well, eradicate covid in the same sense as we have measles .. to be fair, measles is not "eradicated - eradicated".

Also, about the mask types .. I think the good people trying to run fair democracies as well as they can have to contemplate *what* is doable in the general population ... If they were to classify N95 masks as the only legit form of masking, how many would go "fuck it, this is too expensive AND complicated" and check out? Probably a-lot. So need to find that sweet spot of whats doable.

 

[eikelbijter]

No, you said this about a 90% effective vaccine:



This is false. Can you admit this statement is false? Otherwise, can you explain when I'll be coming down with Measles?

Wow, let me repeat this one more time I guess: a vaccine that is 90% effective at reducing infection will NOT halt a quickly mutating virus in a population anymore. This is so widespread already, almost all of the final 1/3rd of Americans who haven't been infected will be exposed to it, even if we vaccinate everyone. For you to start taking about MEASLES again is now bordering on ridiculous. You cannot compare those two.

 

[desy]

Wrong how? I already said even at 90% effectiveness, and I promise you that number will go down with future variants, the suggestion that we can eradicate this virus is foolish at best and disingenuous at worst. That's BEEN my one and only point and I haven't heard a single argument that would disprove that.

Yes Covid is variable much like flu which is why we get annual flu shots and I suspect Covid will ultimately be the same. Science with discover the variants and deal with them adhoc going forward.
Nothing to get soworked up over I don't beleive anybody projected we would rid society of it but get ourselves to a point where hospitals don't collapse and morgues fill and we move on from there

 

[ch33zw1z]

So is 90% not good enough now? 🤣

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Wow, let me repeat this one more time I guess: a vaccine that is 90% effective at reducing infection will NOT halt a quickly mutating virus in a population anymore. This is so widespread already, almost all of the final 1/3rd of Americans who haven't been infected will be exposed to it, even if we vaccinate everyone. For you to start taking about MEASLES again is now bordering on ridiculous. You cannot compare those two.

Does ANYONE believe the vaccines are a one treatment and done forever protection?
I and everyone I know assumes there will be boosters in one form or another.
Has all this been about you thinking people believe they won’t need a booster or a slightly tweaked booster in the future?

 

[ch33zw1z]

Does ANYONE believe the vaccines are a one treatment and done forever protection?
I and everyone I know assumes there will be boosters in one form or another.
Has all this been about you thinking people believe they won’t need a booster or a slightly tweaked booster in the future?

Yep, this shit has had here to stay written all over it since the get go.

It will be part of the yearly flu vaccine IMO.

 

[cytg111]

Wow, let me repeat this one more time I guess: a vaccine that is 90% effective at reducing infection will NOT halt a quickly mutating virus in a population anymore. This is so widespread already, almost all of the final 1/3rd of Americans who haven't been infected will be exposed to it, even if we vaccinate everyone. For you to start taking about MEASLES again is now bordering on ridiculous. You cannot compare those two.

Nah. But. The measles vaccine is a lifelong 97% protection right? I dont know why, but as with the flu our immune system "forgets" covid19 after a while, hence the talk about annual shots. I think that fact is much more likely to keep the virus alive compared to measles.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Yep, this shit has had here to stay written all over it since the get go.

It will be part of the yearly flu vaccine IMO.

I’m a little more positive. I think we’ll get it mostly under control in 5 years or so, then treat outbreaks or target treatments to those who have large risk.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I’m a little more positive. I think we’ll get it mostly under control in 5 years or so, then treat outbreaks or target treatments to those who have large risk.

I hope you're right, but based on America's response, I'm not so hopeful. The derp squad will ruin it for us.

 

[eikelbijter]

39% boss
Just so dummy me understands
Is your point this and future variants will reduce the 90% effectiveness? Do you agree that any mask properly worn reduces infection per what we know right now?

Yes/No or explain in simple direct words please.

Effectiveness will most certainly go down, and at some point there will be a variant against which the vaccines offer virtually 0% protection. I will even go further, ON RECORD BTW, that there is a big chance that we will get variants against which natural infection DOES provide immunity but the vaccine doesn't, and there's even a smaller chance of one the other way around. The actual immune response between vaccine and natural infection is measurably different, in a few ways that are fascinating.

As far as masks go: of course any time you put something in the path of something else, it's going to affect it. In the case of Covid aerosols, the difference can be anywhere from 0% (mask on the chin) to some number based on how you define "work". If you're talking a quick visit to a well ventilated big store, you could get close to 99% prevention of a sick person infecting someone else. When you're talking cloth masks, homemade stuff, at a small Starbucks, you're gonna be way lower. When I saw some of my colleagues (musicians) in a small studio for 6 hours together with mask on, I would say you're in the single digits.

Just to show you guys I'm not crazy, I've had arguments with a friend in Holland FOR masks, because there the infection rate had been SO low, that trying to buy time to get everybody who wants vaccinated, WAS worth it. And in the end, so far that has panned out. In my opinion, the best way to estimate infection rates in a country, assuming it delivers trustworthy numbers, is to look at deaths per million. Los Angeles has 2.6x the deaths that Holland does.

The bottom line is, masks can work on flattening a curve, if everybody would wear N95, properly put on and off, it could be quite effective. What we did in LA was NOT effective; we wore masks for 17 months and more than 2/3 got infected anyway. This is what people mean when they say "masks don't work".

And one more time, a flattened curve representing exponential growth will STILL get to 100% just a little later. If we needed time to vaccinate more people, you might have a point, but in my opinion it's time to get over it.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Nah. But. The measles vaccine is a lifelong 97% protection right? I dont know why, but as with the flu our immune system "forgets" covid19 after a while, hence the talk about annual shots. I think that fact is much more likely to keep the virus alive compared to measles.

Take this with a big grain of salt but I remember something about seasonal sicknesses I saw in TV a long time ago. Corona viruses mutate fast and I forgot why but putting that aside when the first infect you they kind of hide in other cells while they multiply. Your immune system has a harder time finding this type virus.
Measles invades big time and doesn’t really hide. Your body knows it is there immediately and measles takes longer to multiply giving your immune system a larger nudge to respond and more time to stop the spread of the virus.

I am not a qualified immunity person but I remember something like that.

 

[eikelbijter]

Yes Covid is variable much like flu which is why we get annual flu shots and I suspect Covid will ultimately be the same. Science with discover the variants and deal with them adhoc going forward.
Nothing to get soworked up over I don't beleive anybody projected we would rid society of it but get ourselves to a point where hospitals don't collapse and morgues fill and we move on from there

So let me ask you this: are you now going to call people who don't take the flu vaccine selfish?

And what's more, are we now going to deny health insurance to snowboarders who break a leg?

 

[ch33zw1z]

Effectiveness will most certainly go down, and at some point there will be a variant against which the vaccines offer virtually 0% protection. I will even go further, ON RECORD BTW, that there is a big chance that we will get variants against which natural infection DOES provide immunity but the vaccine doesn't, and there's even a smaller chance of one the other way around. The actual immune response between vaccine and natural infection is measurably different, in a few ways that are fascinating.

As far as masks go: of course any time you put something in the path of something else, it's going to affect it. In the case of Covid aerosols, the difference can be anywhere from 0% (mask on the chin) to some number based on how you define "work". If you're talking a quick visit to a well ventilated big store, you could get close to 99% prevention of a sick person infecting someone else. When you're talking cloth masks, homemade stuff, at a small Starbucks, you're gonna be way lower. When I saw some of my colleagues (musicians) in a small studio for 6 hours together with mask on, I would say you're in the single digits.

Just to show you guys I'm not crazy, I've had arguments with a friend in Holland FOR masks, because there the infection rate had been SO low, that trying to buy time to get everybody who wants vaccinated, WAS worth it. And in the end, so far that has panned out. In my opinion, the best way to estimate infection rates in a country, assuming it delivers trustworthy numbers, is to look at deaths per million. Los Angeles has 2.6x the deaths that Holland does.

The bottom line is, masks can work on flattening a curve, if everybody would wear N95, properly put on and off, it could be quite effective. What we did in LA was NOT effective; we wore masks for 17 months and more than 2/3 got infected anyway. This is what people mean when they say "masks don't work".

And one more time, a flattened curve representing exponential growth will STILL get to 100% just a little later. If we needed time to vaccinate more people, you might have a point, but in my opinion it's time to get over it.

As with influenza, there will eventually be a variant that will require adapting the vaccine recipe, and people with something to lose and a brain in their heads will line up for it.

It's not time to get over it, it's time to get with it.

 

[eikelbijter]

Take this with a big grain of salt but I remember something about seasonal sicknesses I saw in TV a long time ago. Corona viruses mutate fast and I forgot why but putting that aside when the first infect you they kind of hide in other cells while they multiply. Your immune system has a harder time finding this type virus.
Measles invades big time and doesn’t really hide. Your body knows it is there immediately and measles takes longer to multiply giving your immune system a larger nudge to respond and more time to stop the spread of the virus.

I am not a qualified immunity person but I remember something like that.

Finally someone that's not afraid to face reality.

R

 

[cytg111]

So let me ask you this: are you now going to call people who don't take the flu vaccine selfish?

Before covid: No.
After covid: Shit. I might have to start taking the flu shot now.

Cause fact is, you might save a life by taking the flu shot. Just never thought about it before.

 

[eikelbijter]

As with influenza, there will eventually be a variant that will require adapting the vaccine recipe, and people with something to lose and a brain in their heads will line up for it.

It's not time to get over it, it's time to get with it.

Vaccinating 7 year olds against every disease that has a 0.0027% chance of killing them is evidence of a lack of thinking. Just saying....

 

[ch33zw1z]

Vaccinating 7 year olds against every disease that has a 0.0027% chance of killing them is evidence of a lack of thinking. Just saying....

Sure pal, that's the ticket.

 

[nakedfrog]

Did you watch the video? Did you see the Rogan interview in March of last year?

I don't know, when the top expert in the world makes a prediction in March 2020 that comes true almost to the T, that means a lot.

Certainly more than some random dude on a forum saying:
" Most evidence says that masks are much better (even cloth ones) at preventing carriers from spreading to others."

Better than WHAT? Your post is gobbledeegook!

R

Joe Rogan? Okay, now things are making more sense.

 

[cytg111]

Joe Rogan? Okay, now things are making more sense.

Well, these experts go on a multitude of platforms to get a big a reach as possible.

 

[eikelbijter]

Before covid: No.
After covid: Shit. I might have to start taking the flu shot now.

Cause fact is, you might save a life by taking the flu shot. Just never thought about it before.

Trust me, I thought about it before. But think about this: the typical flu shot costs between 5 and 30 dollars. It needs to be administered so let's just say $20. If we give that to every American, it would cost $600 million. It would prevent anywhere from 30 to 80 procent of deaths from the flu, which can be as few as 5000 to perhaps 40000. How many poor people's lives would be saved by 600 million dollars in Africa?