Contagion spreading among the vaccinated

[[DHT]Osiris]

I have the opposite impression - I have no idea what his 'goal' here is. I still dont' know what point he's trying to make or what his 'thesis' is that he's defending, or what he's arguing against. If he had a purpose in the beginning it seems like it rapdily degenerated into endless pointless quibbling for the sake of it, just arguing out of pure egotism.

Best I can make out is he's another of the 'herd immunity through infection' crowd, who I have encountered repeatedly on the internet since the start. I still don't know what it is about that idea that is so appealing to them, though. Some sort of machismo thing, maybe?

The best I can conclude is that he has a very wrong impression about vaccine vs immunity gained from infection, and believes that we'd be better off by getting immunity via infection vs via vaccine. Probably an irrational fear of the vaccine combined with a very false sense of self-worth. I'm guessing 18-28 year old male, single or in a very early relationship, no kids.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I have the opposite impression - I have no idea what his 'goal' here is. I still dont' know what point he's trying to make or what his 'thesis' is that he's defending, or what he's arguing against. If he had a purpose in the beginning it seems like it rapdily degenerated into endless pointless quibbling for the sake of it, just arguing out of pure egotism.

Best I can make out is he's another of the 'herd immunity through infection' crowd, who I have encountered repeatedly on the internet since the start. I still don't know what it is about that idea that is so appealing to them, though. Some sort of machismo thing, maybe?

Good friend of mine is one of those guys. I predicted he’d vote Trump before he even considered voting Trump because Trump talks like a tough guy. I was right.
He has done the same since last spring about herd immunity and for some reason the doesn’t trust the Trump vaccine and repeatedly cites data that does not support his conclusion that since he recovered from Covid he has far superior immunity.
He has yet to explain why herd immunity shouldn’t be done thru vaccination. I suspect he is afraid of needles and getting vaccinated isn’t as masculine as fighting the virus off.
I am a superstitious guy. I expect anyone who brags about their super duper long term immunity will get Covid again.

 

[eikelbijter]

I have the opposite impression - I have no idea what his 'goal' here is. I still dont' know what point he's trying to make or what his 'thesis' is that he's defending, or what he's arguing against. If he had a purpose in the beginning it seems like it rapdily degenerated into endless pointless quibbling for the sake of it, just arguing out of pure egotism.

Best I can make out is he's another of the 'herd immunity through infection' crowd, who I have encountered repeatedly on the internet since the start. I still don't know what it is about that idea that is so appealing to them, though. Some sort of machismo thing, maybe?

You guys...I never said we SHOULD achieve herd immunity through infection, but I am under the impression that it's possible. My only problem is with the so-often-made statement that if we don't vaccinate everyone this will drag on forever.

Also, and so far I haven't heard a single person telling me why DrBeen is wrong in his explanation of that study that suggests LONG lasting immunity, or even the study itself.

 

[pmv]

Good friend of mine is one of those guys. I predicted he’d vote Trump before he even considered voting Trump because Trump talks like a tough guy. I was right.
He has done the same since last spring about herd immunity and for some reason the doesn’t trust the Trump vaccine and repeatedly cites data that does not support his conclusion that since he recovered from Covid he has far superior immunity.
He has yet to explain why herd immunity shouldn’t be done thru vaccination. I suspect he is afraid of needles and getting vaccinated isn’t as masculine as fighting the virus off.
I am a superstitious guy. I expect anyone who brags about their super duper long term immunity will get Covid again.

At the start the line they spouted to me was that we couldn't develop vaccines in time, before everyone had been infected anyway, thus there was no point in masks or lockdowns. (To be honest, even I was surprised how quickly we got the vaccines out there).

 

[pmv]

You guys...I never said we SHOULD achieve herd immunity through infection, but I am under the impression that it's possible. My only problem is with the so-often-made statement that if we don't vaccinate everyone this will drag on forever.

Also, and so far I haven't heard a single person telling me why DrBeen is wrong in his explanation of that study that suggests LONG lasting immunity, or even the study itself.

You still haven't cited an example of someone saying "if we don't vaccinate everyone this will drag on forever".

What people have said is that doing it via infection will mean a vast number of avoidable deaths. How many need to be vaccinated to stop the pandemic, apparently (so I've read repeatedly) depends on how infectious the thing is, which depends on what variants arise and also on people's behaviour (e.g. masks and social-distancing and ventilation etc).

 

[eikelbijter]

The best I can conclude is that he has a very wrong impression about vaccine vs immunity gained from infection, and believes that we'd be better off by getting immunity via infection vs via vaccine. Probably an irrational fear of the vaccine combined with a very false sense of self-worth. I'm guessing 18-28 year old male, single or in a very early relationship, no kids.

That's hilarious! I'm actually 51, certainly NOT afraid of the vaccine, and I never said that natural immunity is better, I only said that we can't say the vaccine immunity is categorically better EITHER, especially going forward with variants which aren't even know yet. That's all.

The only thing you got right is that I don't have kids!

 

[Fanatical Meat]

You guys...I never said we SHOULD achieve herd immunity through infection, but I am under the impression that it's possible. My only problem is with the so-often-made statement that if we don't vaccinate everyone this will drag on forever.

Also, and so far I haven't heard a single person telling me why DrBeen is wrong in his explanation of that study that suggests LONG lasting immunity, or even the study itself.

Great another YouTube Doctor and this one accepts money thru Patron and “Buy me a Coffee”? I assume that is some type of donation app.
No thank you and no I do not have any intent wading thru his 60 to 120 minute YouTube videos.

 

[fskimospy]

At the start the line they spouted to me was that we couldn't develop vaccines in time, before everyone had been infected anyway, thus there was no point in masks or lockdowns. (To be honest, even I was surprised how quickly we got the vaccines out there).

It is interesting to look back at what some people were predicting early on because it's shocking how utterly wrong they were, saying things like 10 years, etc. I just checked back though and I'm very proud of myself - people predicted the vaccine would arrive very quickly, meaning by Spring 2021 and I predicted it would arrive sooner than that. Look how smart I am.

 

[eikelbijter]

Great another YouTube Doctor and this one accepts money thru Patron and “Buy me a Coffee”? I assume that is some type of donation app.
No thank you and no I do not have any intent wading thru his 60 to 120 minute YouTube videos.

Ok, then read the study. Are YOU a doctor?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You guys...I never said we SHOULD achieve herd immunity through infection, but I am under the impression that it's possible. My only problem is with the so-often-made statement that if we don't vaccinate everyone this will drag on forever.

Also, and so far I haven't heard a single person telling me why DrBeen is wrong in his explanation of that study that suggests LONG lasting immunity, or even the study itself.

We already have proof of people getting infected twice, and we're at most 18mo into this. It's pretty obvious at this point that natural herd immunity is impossible.

That's hilarious! I'm actually 51, certainly NOT afraid of the vaccine, and I never said that natural immunity is better, I only said that we can't say the vaccine immunity is categorically better EITHER, especially going forward with variants which aren't even know yet. That's all.

The only thing you got right is that I don't have kids!

It's categorically better because millions of people will not die from vaccines. Tens/hundreds of millions of people will die in some vainglorious attempt at chicken pox partying the entire goddamn planet.

 

[Meghan54]

At the start the line they spouted to me was that we couldn't develop vaccines in time, before everyone had been infected anyway, thus there was no point in masks or lockdowns. (To be honest, even I was surprised how quickly we got the vaccines out there).

Why are you surprised? It’s not 1900. We have learned a few things since smallpox scabs were being ground up and introduced via nose or skin (small incision, a bit put in.)

 

[fskimospy]

That's hilarious! I'm actually 51, certainly NOT afraid of the vaccine, and I never said that natural immunity is better, I only said that we can't say the vaccine immunity is categorically better EITHER, especially going forward with variants which aren't even know yet. That's all.

The only thing you got right is that I don't have kids!

No, you actually said that vaccine immunity would NOT be categorically better than infection immunity. While we don't know if it will end up being so the available evidence indicates a strong chance vaccine immunity will in fact be categorically better than immunity through infection.

Unless I missed it you never admitted to being wrong about this either.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

That's hilarious! I'm actually 51, certainly NOT afraid of the vaccine, and I never said that natural immunity is better, I only said that we can't say the vaccine immunity is categorically better EITHER, especially going forward with variants which aren't even know yet. That's all.

The only thing you got right is that I don't have kids!

Fine give us an elevator pitch as to what you point is and has been since none of us understand what it is.
Elevator pitches in written form should be short sentences typically fewer words the better and not more than 3 sentences.

 

[Meghan54]

We already have proof of people getting infected twice, and we're at most 18mo into this. It's pretty obvious at this point that natural herd immunity is impossible.

It's categorically better because millions of people will not die from vaccines. Tens/hundreds of millions of people will die in some vainglorious attempt at chicken pox partying the entire goddamn planet.

Amazing he still doesn’t get it.

 

[fskimospy]

Why are you surprised? It’s not 1900. We have learned a few things since smallpox scabs were being ground up and introduced via nose or skin (small incision, a bit put in.)

It's because generally vaccines take decades to develop and test. I think a lot of people who predicted vaccines would take that long missed 3 crucial things:

1) this was a virus we already understand very well.
2) with widespread infection you can test things a lot more easily.
3) government can speed things up hugely if it is motivated to do so, and it was highly motivated here.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Ok, then read the study. Are YOU a doctor?

nope and I have said back a few pages ago about the medical study you posted it was written for and in a language medical professionals use. I would not attempt to interpret it

 

[eikelbijter]

nope and I have said back a few pages ago about the medical study you posted it was written for and in a language medical professionals use. I would not attempt to interpret it

So you don't want to read the paper, you don't want to watch an actual doctor take the time to explain it as much as possible to non-medical professionals, but you still come on here and call me names and say I'm wrong. Got it!

 

[pmv]

Why are you surprised? It’s not 1900. We have learned a few things since smallpox scabs were being ground up and introduced via nose or skin (small incision, a bit put in.)

Because I'm not a medical expert of any kind, and because a great many people, including 'experts' were, early on, downplaying and dampening expectations about rapid vaccine development. (By no means were those people exclusively from the macho-libertarian anti-lockdown contingent.). Quite happy to be pleasantly suprised at how it turned out. Seems us humans can at least do some things right (even if we remain utterly hopeless at resolving social and political problems)

 

[eikelbijter]

Fine give us an elevator pitch as to what you point is and has been since none of us understand what it is.
Elevator pitches in written form should be short sentences typically fewer words the better and not more than 3 sentences.

Here we go:

1. I reject the notion that immunity from natural infection only lasts for six months or less. There's more and more evidence to the contrary.
2. Of course the Covid vaccines are effective in preventing serious illness, higher than 90% it seems even with the current variants.
3. The vaccines do not provide 100% protection against reinfection, as doesn't having had Covid. The protection will almost certainly go down as new variants emerge.
4. Virtually everyone who wants a vaccine in the US has now had the chance to get it; for free.

Because of all these points, combined with how far and wide this has already spread, we need to open up now and let those who have no immunity get infected, as much as it hurts to see more people die, and yes, thousands more will die in the US.

 

[dank69]

Here we go:

1. I reject the notion that immunity from natural infection only lasts for six months or less. There's more and more evidence to the contrary.
2. Of course the Covid vaccines are effective in preventing serious illness, higher than 90% it seems even with the current variants.
3. The vaccines do not provide 100% protection against reinfection, as doesn't having had Covid. The protection will almost certainly go down as new variants emerge.
4. Virtually everyone who wants a vaccine in the US has now had the chance to get it; for free.

Because of all these points, combined with how far and wide this has already spread, we need to open up now and let those who have no immunity get infected, as much as it hurts to see more people die, and yes, thousands more will die in the US.

Okay I'll let me kids know opening up is important and their risk of death is not.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

So you don't want to read the paper, you don't want to watch an actual doctor take the time to explain it as much as possible to non-medical professionals, but you still come on here and call me names and say I'm wrong. Got it!

I typically don’t watch Dr’s on YouTube I will not watch a Dr on YouTube taking Patron payments. Full stop. Nope.
Still waiting on conclusions from MA vs MS
Still waiting on simple explanation of what you want to accomplish not exactly an elevator pitch but simple enough
Still waiting on a Doctor that doesn’t recommend vaccination for all who are eligible

 

[eikelbijter]

I typically don’t watch Dr’s on YouTube I will not watch a Dr on YouTube taking Patron payments. Full stop. Nope.
Still waiting on conclusions from MA vs MS
Still waiting on simple explanation of what you want to accomplish
Still waiting on a Doctor that doesn’t recommend vaccination for all who are eligible

The MA vs MS "conclusion" you're looking for is not relevant to this discussion. I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at other than that the vaccines are effective at preventing people from being hospitalized, which I've said from the beginning is the case.

What I want to "accomplish" is the end of the horror show we've been living in for the last 14 months. I'm arguing that we need to open up now and let the chips fall where they may. Those who wanted to have had the ability to get a vaccine. Delta is SO infectious and SO widespread that the number of extra lives who would be saved if only everyone would get vaccinated is quite low, especially considering that fact that even vaccinated people can get infected and pass it on to others. Those who can't get inoculated for medical reasons will ALWAYS be vulnerable anyway.

I think the jury is still out whether we can even eradicate Covid 19 at all, but if we can it won't be before virtually every person in the US will have been exposed to it.

Now places like Australia or Japan are completely different. When the attack rate is as low as it is there, the numbers of folks at risk of still dying in an outbreak are much higher than here.

For your last point, I already showed you one, Dr. Dhand. You can chose to discount him, I never said he's the God of medical information, but he does not "recommend" people who have measurable antibodies get vaccinated, eligible. In the video shared in this thread he recommends those who are WORRIED get tested and/or vaccinated, plus of course those who have not been infected

 

[eikelbijter]

Okay I'll let me kids know opening up is important and their risk of death is not.

How old are your kids? Do you know what their risk of dying from Covid19 is? Serious questions.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the IFR for people 0-18 years of age somewhere around 0.0025%? That's 1 in 40 thousand. There are about 80 million US residents in the 0-19 age bracket. Even if we assume NONE of them have been infected and ALL of them are still at risk, that's 2000 deaths. Just to put that in perspective, per the CDC:





Injury is the leading cause of death in children and young adults. According to the CDC, approximately 12,000 children and young adults, ages 1 to 19 years, die from unintentional injuries each year. Falls are the leading cause of nonfatal injury for children.

 

[dank69]

... Those who wanted to have had the ability to get a vaccine. ...

You keep saying this but it is false.

 

[eikelbijter]

You keep saying this but it is false.

How so? You can go to any CVS or Kroger right now and get one, no? I'm talking about the US.