Consumer Reports New Car Reliability Survey

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Pandaren
Corporate profits ultimately go to the shareholders in the form of dividends. The shareholders could be anywhere in the world, regardless of the corporation's origin. If Ford was profitable and paying a dividend, and there were shareholders in France, some of Ford's profits would go to France. If Toyota has shareholders in the US, Americans will get any dividend Toyota pays.

Besides, foreign brand cars are often made in the US, and US brand cars are often made abroad, typically in Mexico or Canada. Platforms, parts, everything is global these days.

More important to look at the VIN number to see country of origin. To support American auto workers, buy a car made in the US, not just with an American badge.

so i guess $100,000 a year engineering jobs just aren't as important as $16 an hour factory jobs?

not to mention that the vast majority of US car company shareholders are probably in the US.

Yup, people always focus on the factory workers for the automakers but I would think the majority of employees don't actually work directly in manufacturing. Accounting, engineering, marketing, market research, and other groups all are HUGE. While foreign makers have a token presence for many of those divisions here they keep most of that work in their home countries.

 

[Pandaren]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
so i guess $100,000 a year engineering jobs just aren't as important as $16 an hour factory jobs?

(1) There are more people working in the factories than there are people at the design table.

(2) The people at the design table are often in the United States. The people who design, set up, and maintain the factory are often in the United States.

For example: Honda Engineering jobs.

I believe the Honda Pilot and Acura TL were designed in the US. Engineering and marketing have to be tailored to the local market. What sells in Japan will not necessarily sell in the US or elsewhere.

 

[Pandaren]

Originally posted by: Ronstang Their opinions are confined to what their professor told them.

:roll:

Have a , troll.

 

[dug777]

Gotta love the good ol' boys and the arguments they put forward for propping up vastly ineffectual US auto makers.

While you're enjoying a few nips of rye in your usual spot at the bar tonight, you should give some thought to what actually happens if the US big three go into Chapter 11.

That of course presupposes you understand why Chapter 11 was created, and what it does...

Let them go to the wall, to quote this week's Economist, 'nothing will sap a recovery and job-creating enterprise like locking up badly used resources in poorly performing companies'.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

I think most of you American Car zealots are forgetting that this is a global economy. It isn't 1965 anymore.

 

[evident]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Pandaren
Corporate profits ultimately go to the shareholders in the form of dividends. The shareholders could be anywhere in the world, regardless of the corporation's origin. If Ford was profitable and paying a dividend, and there were shareholders in France, some of Ford's profits would go to France. If Toyota has shareholders in the US, Americans will get any dividend Toyota pays.

Besides, foreign brand cars are often made in the US, and US brand cars are often made abroad, typically in Mexico or Canada. Platforms, parts, everything is global these days.

More important to look at the VIN number to see country of origin. To support American auto workers, buy a car made in the US, not just with an American badge.

so i guess $100,000 a year engineering jobs just aren't as important as $16 an hour factory jobs?

not to mention that the vast majority of US car company shareholders are probably in the US.

camaro = engineered in australia, built in canada

cruze = engineered in korea

where do you draw the line?

accord and tl = engineered and built in USA

Like someone said earlier, it's a global economy now

 

[desy]

Ah yes, not 1965
I hate to see NA icons fail, esp since auto's seem to ignite a lot of passion

However re-structuring and re-inventing their business model esp on the employee renumeration side of things, top to bottom can bring them back in line with reality I hope they continue to make cars.

I've owned cars from 6 different companies I don't 'love' any of them. I like the choice and as long as the product is what I'm interested in I don't grudge any of them either.

 

[ballmode]

I wouldn't mind test driving a ford fusion

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
I think most of you American Car zealots are forgetting that this is a global economy. It isn't 1965 anymore.

The issue at hand, well, to some, isn't that, but rather the assumption that cars from Ford and GM are all crap, which is far from true. Don't get me wrong, a lot of the major improvements have been pretty recent -- I'd even say it's really only been the past five years or so, but their vehicles are quite nice now.

Originally posted by: evident

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
What's the incentive to switch to Ford if they're just as good. I'm fine with my reliable Hondas. I don't want to support over paid unions either.

this * 192380932480392420343024230

chrysler burned my parents in the past, 3 times. we've gone through 4 hondas, a 20 year old nissan and a toyota without a major problem , why the hell would i consider again?

i wish there would be new US auto companies that aren't related to the current 3 asshat companies

Chrysler is mentioned in one paragraph and is easily summed up by "they suck."

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
I think most of you American Car zealots are forgetting that this is a global economy. It isn't 1965 anymore.

Which would make matters worse considering the consequences of letting them go.
Ford has a strong presence in Europe as their own Brand. GM has Opel and Saab.
Ford and GM have operations in Australia that are almost completely indigenous.
Shall we go on?
Some of you American car hating zealots are forgetting this is a global economy.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

I honestly laugh at all of this Why does a car company even have to be mentioned? I just look at the *car* itself. So far its been two Fords, a Lincoln, and a GMC. It doesn't have anything to do with brand for us. Just what we like at the time for the money and the expected problems. One of the things that have kept us *personally* from foreign manufacturers is the drastic price difference in comparable models in used vehicles. I'm not paying $5000 more for a Honda badge. Whats the point of extra reliability when the parts cost more anyways and are a PITA to work on? Thus far domestics have been cheaper overall for me to purchase and maintain, so that's what I buy. When a foreign car gives me what I need, I'll go foreign. But I couldn't care less what the brand is.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Originally posted by: ballmode
I wouldn't mind test driving a ford fusion

Indeed do. It's an excellent car back when me and bro were vehicle hunting. Very peppy too! Only problem is the Five Hundred and the Fusion were the same price at the time, and the Five Hundred offered alot more room, which was more important to us at the time than the Fusions "sport appeal".

 

[Arkaign]

There was a time (say between 1988 and 1995) that Toyota/Honda were hands-down, undeniably better at making cars than the Big 3. That time has passed for two reasons :

(1)- The Japanese have slipped a bit. Not horrendously, and pay no attention to the opposite fanboys/trolls who say that Toyota is just trash, because that's not true. But the facts are that a new Honda or Toyota from that golden age of ~'88 to ~'95 was likely to be a lot tougher and longer-lasting than more recent models, particularly 2000+.

(2)- Ford and GM have come a HUGE distance forward in design, reliability, and refinement. To not acknowledge this is folly. Sadly, Chrysler still lags considerably in nearly every respect, though the Ram is a fine truck, and the Viper remains an iconic piece of American muscle.

 

[KDKPSJ]

American design has improved, well, only for the eyes of Americans.

Let me be honest. If American automakers, especially GM, want to sell cars only in the US, they can stick with the current design team. But if they want to make money oversea, they gotta think again.

Most European and Asian buyers simply don't prefer the current American styling. There was a time when American-looking was trend, but unfortunately, the time is gone. It's time when American-looking is only good for few Americans. For the rest of people, especially people not born in US (myself being one), American cars still look like too American (lol) and that's why we won't buy them, exception of few Ford models which look like European car.

US market is huge, and I totally agree. But oversea market is not small either.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: everydae
American design has improved, well, only for the eyes of Americans.

Let me be honest. If American automakers, especially GM, want to sell cars only in the US, they can stick with the current design team. But if they want to make money oversea, they gotta think again.

Most European and Asian buyers simply don't prefer the current American styling. There was a time when American-looking was trend, but unfortunately, the time is gone. It's time when American-looking is only good for few Americans. For the rest of people, especially people not born in US (myself being one), American cars still look like too American (lol) and that's why we won't buy them, exception of few Ford models which look like European car.

US market is huge, and I totally agree. But oversea market is not small either.

That's just upbringing. Some people don't like Chris Banglized German cars. Or fugly French cars.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Originally posted by: everydae
American design has improved, well, only for the eyes of Americans.

Let me be honest. If American automakers, especially GM, want to sell cars only in the US, they can stick with the current design team. But if they want to make money oversea, they gotta think again.

Most European and Asian buyers simply don't prefer the current American styling. There was a time when American-looking was trend, but unfortunately, the time is gone. It's time when American-looking is only good for few Americans. For the rest of people, especially people not born in US (myself being one), American cars still look like too American (lol) and that's why we won't buy them, exception of few Ford models which look like European car.

US market is huge, and I totally agree. But oversea market is not small either.

Ford is a very big player overseas. European specced models are very good contenders Europe with excellent style to go along with it. You're right, American styling tends to work in America, and European styling tends to work in Europe. Ford and GM alike provide many different models to those two different countries.

To me, European models tend to have a styling that is so sharp it tends to border on anorexic, the lines are very pointed and that doesn't particularly appeal to *me*.

Now personally, I'd take some more Australian themed cars.. mmmm Holden and FPV come to mind.

 

[KDKPSJ]

Originally posted by: foghorn67
That's just upbringing. Some people don't like Chris Banglized German cars. Or fugly French cars.

Sorry, but you just gave another example of the difference in view of American and European/Asian.

Many Peugeot cars look nice (at least to us), and they are indeed popular oversea. Just few days ago, I discussed about new BMW 3 sedan on Korean community (way bigger than Anandtech with a lot more active members if it matters), and guess what, we all agreed older E90 (06-08) looked a lot better than 09 E90. Some even argued it was one of the best looking Bimmers. Interesting, isn't it?

I am not saying all the American cars look fugly to us. I think Viper & Corvette are still one of the best looking sports car, and my dad is dying to buy Escalade as it's one of the best looking SUV for him. But I will buy G37 sedan, IS, 3 sedan or 9-3x (GM here!) over ugly & fat CTS anytime, and my dad will buy E class or GS over any American mid-size sedan.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: everydae
American design has improved, well, only for the eyes of Americans.

Let me be honest. If American automakers, especially GM, want to sell cars only in the US, they can stick with the current design team. But if they want to make money oversea, they gotta think again.

Most European and Asian buyers simply don't prefer the current American styling. There was a time when American-looking was trend, but unfortunately, the time is gone. It's time when American-looking is only good for few Americans. For the rest of people, especially people not born in US (myself being one), American cars still look like too American (lol) and that's why we won't buy them, exception of few Ford models which look like European car.

US market is huge, and I totally agree. But oversea market is not small either.

I can't figure out if you're complaining about American cars looking too American in America or American cars looking too American in Europe. If it's the latter, the European models are almost all exclusively European. As far as over here, GM is bringing over a lot of its European line. Other than the Outlook, I think the whole Saturn line is lifted from Opel since the refresh.

And haven't the top selling cars in Europe been the Ford Focus and Fiesta for quite some time?

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: sindows
I personally never understood why domestic cars have the bad rep for reliability that they do. My family has owned cars from nearly every country and the worst cars are usually German. The only thing about domestic cars that I don't like are their interiors but they have gotten much better since the early-late 90s. Domestic cars as a whole also tend to be a little bit thirstier but they produce a more oomphy feeling even if their horsepower ratings are the same.

It's because of the late 70s/early 80s when domestics were complete crap during the transition to fuel injection and emissions controls.

Even when it's no longer true, people will hold on to old stigmas, especially if they are guilty of import snobbery and need something other than brand snobbery to justify their purchase instead of just admitting they are a brand snob.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
I think most of you American Car zealots are forgetting that this is a global economy. It isn't 1965 anymore.

The issue at hand, well, to some, isn't that, but rather the assumption that cars from Ford and GM are all crap, which is far from true. Don't get me wrong, a lot of the major improvements have been pretty recent -- I'd even say it's really only been the past five years or so, but their vehicles are quite nice now.

Originally posted by: evident

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
What's the incentive to switch to Ford if they're just as good. I'm fine with my reliable Hondas. I don't want to support over paid unions either.

this * 192380932480392420343024230

chrysler burned my parents in the past, 3 times. we've gone through 4 hondas, a 20 year old nissan and a toyota without a major problem , why the hell would i consider again?

i wish there would be new US auto companies that aren't related to the current 3 asshat companies

Chrysler is mentioned in one paragraph and is easily summed up by "they suck."

Maybe they need to start at the their roots. They've expanded their empires beyond control. You can't say they're efficient with multiple brands. Toyota has 3, Honda is a single company.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune

Originally posted by: everydae
American design has improved, well, only for the eyes of Americans.

Let me be honest. If American automakers, especially GM, want to sell cars only in the US, they can stick with the current design team. But if they want to make money oversea, they gotta think again.

Most European and Asian buyers simply don't prefer the current American styling. There was a time when American-looking was trend, but unfortunately, the time is gone. It's time when American-looking is only good for few Americans. For the rest of people, especially people not born in US (myself being one), American cars still look like too American (lol) and that's why we won't buy them, exception of few Ford models which look like European car.

US market is huge, and I totally agree. But oversea market is not small either.

Ford is a very big player overseas. European specced models are very good contenders Europe with excellent style to go along with it. You're right, American styling tends to work in America, and European styling tends to work in Europe. Ford and GM alike provide many different models to those two different countries.

To me, European models tend to have a styling that is so sharp it tends to border on anorexic, the lines are very pointed and that doesn't particularly appeal to *me*.

Now personally, I'd take some more Australian themed cars.. mmmm Holden and FPV come to mind.

:thumbsup:

Although the general yank complaint is that our styling is too 90s, which I assume means it's not square and chromed enough

I love the new Falcons, some FPV pics if you care:

http://www.fpv.com.au/gt_brochure.pdf

The GTE315 is my favourite by a long shot.

I also like the HSVs:

http://www.hsv.com.au/index.asp

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Pandaren
Corporate profits ultimately go to the shareholders in the form of dividends. The shareholders could be anywhere in the world, regardless of the corporation's origin. If Ford was profitable and paying a dividend, and there were shareholders in France, some of Ford's profits would go to France. If Toyota has shareholders in the US, Americans will get any dividend Toyota pays.

Besides, foreign brand cars are often made in the US, and US brand cars are often made abroad, typically in Mexico or Canada. Platforms, parts, everything is global these days.

More important to look at the VIN number to see country of origin. To support American auto workers, buy a car made in the US, not just with an American badge.

so i guess $100,000 a year engineering jobs just aren't as important as $16 an hour factory jobs?

not to mention that the vast majority of US car company shareholders are probably in the US.

So I guess $100,000 a year Amerian engineers are more important than $100,000 a year Japanese engineers? I have never seen any argument, much less a good one, that I should care about an American's job more than a foreigner's job. They have kids to feed too.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
I think most of you American Car zealots are forgetting that this is a global economy. It isn't 1965 anymore.

The issue at hand, well, to some, isn't that, but rather the assumption that cars from Ford and GM are all crap, which is far from true. Don't get me wrong, a lot of the major improvements have been pretty recent -- I'd even say it's really only been the past five years or so, but their vehicles are quite nice now.

Originally posted by: evident

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
What's the incentive to switch to Ford if they're just as good. I'm fine with my reliable Hondas. I don't want to support over paid unions either.

this * 192380932480392420343024230

chrysler burned my parents in the past, 3 times. we've gone through 4 hondas, a 20 year old nissan and a toyota without a major problem , why the hell would i consider again?

i wish there would be new US auto companies that aren't related to the current 3 asshat companies

Chrysler is mentioned in one paragraph and is easily summed up by "they suck."

Maybe they need to start at the their roots. They've expanded their empires beyond control. You can't say they're efficient with multiple brands. Toyota has 3, Honda is a single company.

Honda has the Acura brand. They also make ATVs, motorcycles, boat engines, and I think a small plane

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Pandaren
Corporate profits ultimately go to the shareholders in the form of dividends. The shareholders could be anywhere in the world, regardless of the corporation's origin. If Ford was profitable and paying a dividend, and there were shareholders in France, some of Ford's profits would go to France. If Toyota has shareholders in the US, Americans will get any dividend Toyota pays.

Besides, foreign brand cars are often made in the US, and US brand cars are often made abroad, typically in Mexico or Canada. Platforms, parts, everything is global these days.

More important to look at the VIN number to see country of origin. To support American auto workers, buy a car made in the US, not just with an American badge.

so i guess $100,000 a year engineering jobs just aren't as important as $16 an hour factory jobs?

not to mention that the vast majority of US car company shareholders are probably in the US.

So I guess $100,000 a year Amerian engineers are more important than $100,000 a year Japanese engineers? I have never seen any argument, much less a good one, that I should care about an American's job more than a foreigner's job. They have kids to feed too.

Actually with Japanese demographics, they probably don't

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Pandaren

Originally posted by: Ronstang
I would rather support overpaid unions, even though I think they need to go, and keep the profit in the US

This is false and people need to stop repeating it.

Corporate profits ultimately go to the shareholders in the form of dividends. The shareholders could be anywhere in the world, regardless of the corporation's origin. If Ford was profitable and paying a dividend, and there were shareholders in France, some of Ford's profits would go to France. If Toyota has shareholders in the US, Americans will get any dividend Toyota pays.

Besides, foreign brand cars are often made in the US, and US brand cars are often made abroad, typically in Mexico or Canada. Platforms, parts, everything is global these days.

More important to look at the VIN number to see country of origin. To support American auto workers, buy a car made in the US, not just with an American badge.

Your explanation is ridiculously simplistic and shows clearly that you lack any solid understanding of financial markets. Only a small portion of corporate profits are returned to shareholders in the form of dividends. And that is assuming that dividends are paid at all (many stocks pay no dividends). The majority of profits are re-invested in the business in some manner and are never seen by shareholders.

ZV