Considering Building A Fanless Mini PC

[New Goer]

How can the Chinese vendors offer a complete PC with a costlier CPU and express delivery for $489?

I asked them, and they answered:

".... our CPU is ES CPU, so it is cheaper."​

!!!!

Intel says:

".... engineering samples are pre-production units, issued free of charge and are not eligible for warranty."​

 

[PeterScott]

That's bizarre. How would they get enough Engineering Samples, to make business of selling PC's that included them.

 

[whm1974]

That's bizarre. How would they get enough Engineering Samples, to make business of selling PC's that included them.

I wouldn't buy a system form them then.

 

[PeterScott]

I wouldn't buy a system form them then.

If that was the previous linked "Partaker" system it also had this nice bit in the description:

"Free Operating System: Default installed our activated OEM cracked version(not genuine, works good)Windows English for free"

Emphasis mine. So Engineering Sample CPU, cracked OS, mail order from China.

Totally fills me with confidence of getting a high quality product.

 

[whm1974]

If that was the previous linked "Partaker" system it also had this nice bit in the description:

"Free Operating System: Default installed our activated OEM cracked version(not genuine, works good)Windows English for free"

Emphasis mine. So Engineering Sample CPU, cracked OS, mail order from China.

Totally fills me with confidence of getting a high quality product.

And probably buggy as hell.

 

[New Goer]

My new cost estimate is ~$550. It's based on current prices. It might be optimistic, as this is my 1st time and I may have missed something.

I'm disappointed with this high cost. I didn't expect it, knowing that a notebook costs almost the same, with similar features in a compact portable form + FHD screen + dedicated GPU + battery + Windows 10.
Example: Acer Aspire E 15

 

[whm1974]

My new cost estimate is ~$550. It's based on current prices. It might be optimistic, as this is my 1st time and I may have missed something.

I'm disappointed with this high cost. I didn't expect it, knowing that a notebook costs almost the same, with similar features in a compact portable form + FHD screen + dedicated GPU + battery + Windows 10.
Example: Acer Aspire E 15

Is this with or without Windows? If it is without, then don't forget to add another $100 for home.

 

[New Goer]

Is this with or without Windows? If it is without, then don't forget to add another $100 for home.

You mean my planned one? As I mentioned in my 1st post, it shall be Linux.

 

[whm1974]

You mean my planned one? As I mentioned in my 1st post, it shall be Linux.

Well that will save you at $100 at least. Anyway aside from MiniITX, some MicroATX case can be fairly small as well. That may be a cheaper route to go.

 

[New Goer]

Well that will save you at $100 at least. Anyway aside from MiniITX, some MicroATX case can be fairly small as well. That may be a cheaper route to go.

No, I'd like the smallest and simplest form possible.

By the way, how can it be cheaper if it's bigger and takes more material to manufacture?

 

[whm1974]

No, I'd like the smallest and simplest form possible.

By the way, how can it be cheaper if it's bigger and takes more material to manufacture?

MiniTX cases and motherboard are in high demand.

 

[DaveSimmons]

No, I'd like the smallest and simplest form possible.

By the way, how can it be cheaper if it's bigger and takes more material to manufacture?

These passive cases are heavy aluminum instead of cheap thin steel, and some include a heatsink or heatpipe. Also, the manufacturing runs are smaller since mini-ITX is a niche for build-it-yourself PCs compared to micro-ATX (also a niche) and full ATX (the most common).

 

[New Goer]

Intel's T-series processors aren't available as boxed/retail.
If any is there, it's tray/OEM without warranty.
Does anyone know why?
I don't think we should buy it without the 3yr warranty.
What can we do in this case?
Due to this, I'm considering buying a used one, or even an ES.

 

[New Goer]

In addition to the above, I've learned today that Intel lowered the quality of its processors since 2012, which shortens their lifespan.

So I've decided to seek having a fanless mini PC powerd by an AMD processor, hopefully in thin mini-ITX form factor. If not possible soon, I'll have to accept the mini-ITX.

The one that appears to be the most proper is Ryzen 5 2400GE.
It's combined with Radeon Graphics and has 35W TDP.
There's the embedded V1605B; but it's too risky if the mobo fails in the future.

Looking for the smallest board and fanless case for a Ryzen.

Any help is appreciated.

 

[DaveSimmons]

In addition to the above, I've learned today that Intel lowered the quality of its processors since 2012, which shortens their lifespan.

Are you talking about the change from soldered heatspreader to using thermal paste? That matters for trying to overclock, but I haven't seen anything to show it affects lifespan under normal use.

 

[New Goer]

Are you talking about the change from soldered heatspreader to using thermal paste? That matters for trying to overclock, but I haven't seen anything to show it affects lifespan under normal use.

Thermal paste is known to be inferior to solder, and to degrade with time, increasing heat in core. Overclocking reveals the overheating problem sooner; but the degrading paste affects all with time, especially in a fanless case.
If replacing the paste every year or so is recommended for the heat-sink, then the same applies to the heat spreader, which is not possible.

 

[VirtualLarry]

If replacing the paste every year or so is recommended for the heat-sink, then the same applies to the heat spreader, which is not possible.

Maybe "white paste", because it dries out sooner, but "good" TIM, doesn't need to be replaced more than once every five years, or if the heatsink is removed.

 

[New Goer]

Maybe "white paste", because it dries out sooner, but "good" TIM, doesn't need to be replaced more than once every five years, or if the heatsink is removed.

Even if Intel uses a "good" TIM (which is not a certainty), this means that these processors won't last as long as those made before 2012 used to.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yep, keep on thinking, that you're smarter than Intel engineers. Have you though of googling, "Intel processor failure - TIM dried out"? Tell me what you find. If this were a wide-spread problem, why do we have so many 10-year-old PCs showing up at refurb outlets? Do you really think that those places de-lid, and re-paste, old CPUs, that sell for $10? It woudn't be worth the labor, at least, not in the USA.

But hey, n00bs seem to know everything, so, carry on.

https://www.arctic.ac/us_en/mx-4.html

Once applied, you do not need to apply it a second time as it will last at least for 8 years.

Realistically, how long are you planning on using this PC? For more than 8 years? If so, then perhaps the TIM is a consideration. But for most people, it's not.

Edit: Sorry, perhaps I was a little harsh, above. It was intended with a dose of sarcasm.

The point that I was making, was that, possibly, yes, processor lifespan might be shorter, with TIM under the heatspreader, rather than solder. But how much shorter are we talking about? Intel retail-boxed CPUs are warrantied for spec. operation, over spec. temp ranges and voltages, for 3 years.

In my experience, they will easily go 8-10 years, or longer. Bad CPUs are rare.

Now, in my somewhat extensive experience servicing SOHO PCs, some of the AMD dual-core 90nm and 65nm CPUs, that had TIM, DID have un-explained temp rises, that was NOT cured by re-pasting (on outside of heatspreader) and a new heatpipe heatsink. So yeah, it did seem like their TIM was drying up, after 5-6 years.

But I've really only seen this on AMD CPUs, and not Intel, for the most part. Remember, those AMD CPUs were 125W dual-cores, and slightly "factory overclocked" at stock speeds. (AMD X2 5600+ and X2 6000+ OEM PCs, I'm looking at you.)

So, IMHO, this really only is a factor, and not even that much of a factor, if:
1) You intend to keep the PC for more than 5-6, maybe 8 years, and
2) You intend to overclock it.

In that case, get a soldered Ryzen CPU, by all means.

Btw, I'm not even totally sure, with the lower cost, Ryzen APUs may be pasted, perhaps someone can verify.

Edit: heatspreader TIM dry-out, is an issue, kind of like SSD wear-out. Yes, both are technically true, but in a practical, day-to-day sense, they don't matter all that much, unless you are subjecting your PC to extremes.

 

[New Goer]

Yep, keep on thinking, that you're smarter than Intel engineers. Have you though of googling, "Intel processor failure - TIM dried out"? Tell me what you find. If this were a wide-spread problem, why do we have so many 10-year-old PCs showing up at refurb outlets? Do you really think that those places de-lid, and re-paste, old CPUs, that sell for $10? It woudn't be worth the labor, at least, not in the USA.

But hey, n00bs seem to know everything, so, carry on.

https://www.arctic.ac/us_en/mx-4.html


Realistically, how long are you planning on using this PC? For more than 8 years? If so, then perhaps the TIM is a consideration. But for most people, it's not.

Edit: Sorry, perhaps I was a little harsh, above. It was intended with a dose of sarcasm.

The point that I was making, was that, possibly, yes, processor lifespan might be shorter, with TIM under the heatspreader, rather than solder. But how much shorter are we talking about? Intel retail-boxed CPUs are warrantied for spec. operation, over spec. temp ranges and voltages, for 3 years.

In my experience, they will easily go 8-10 years, or longer. Bad CPUs are rare.

Now, in my somewhat extensive experience servicing SOHO PCs, some of the AMD dual-core 90nm and 65nm CPUs, that had TIM, DID have un-explained temp rises, that was NOT cured by re-pasting (on outside of heatspreader) and a new heatpipe heatsink. So yeah, it did seem like their TIM was drying up, after 5-6 years.

But I've really only seen this on AMD CPUs, and not Intel, for the most part. Remember, those AMD CPUs were 125W dual-cores, and slightly "factory overclocked" at stock speeds. (AMD X2 5600+ and X2 6000+ OEM PCs, I'm looking at you.)

So, IMHO, this really only is a factor, and not even that much of a factor, if:
1) You intend to keep the PC for more than 5-6, maybe 8 years, and
2) You intend to overclock it.

In that case, get a soldered Ryzen CPU, by all means.

Btw, I'm not even totally sure, with the lower cost, Ryzen APUs may be pasted, perhaps someone can verify.

Edit: heatspreader TIM dry-out, is an issue, kind of like SSD wear-out. Yes, both are technically true, but in a practical, day-to-day sense, they don't matter all that much, unless you are subjecting your PC to extremes.

Apparently, from your comments, the fanless design never seems to be on your mind. Perhaps that was the problem with your last reply too.

If I thought I knew everything, I wouldn't have come to ask for help.

I'm not here to discuss mainstream PCs or what goes for most people. My aimed PC is fanless, and yes, I do intend to keep it for more than 6 years. Thus I am concerned with its longevity being counteracted by this problem.

It's only been 6 years since paste use started, and there hasn't been enough fanless PCs to have meaningful statistics.

Thanks for raising the question. The 1st generation of Ryzen had paste.
The 2nd generation processors have been confirmed to have soldered IHS:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/7xmmlp/ryzen_refresh_to_feature_soldered_dies_not_tim/

Official video
2nd Gen AMD Ryzen™ Processors: Built for Enthusiasts, by Enthusiasts

Edit: Soldering has been only for CPUs not APUs.

 

[VirtualLarry]

It's only been 6 years since paste use started, and there hasn't been enough fanless PCs to have meaningful statistics.

Again, NOT true. The lower-end Core2 CPUs, were pasted. CPUs like the E2140/60/80/2200/2220. AFAIK, you can still find those CPUs, working.

And what connection this issue has specifically with fanless PCs, I can't fathom. Unless you're trying to tell me that you intend to run them out of spec.?

 

[New Goer]

Again, NOT true. The lower-end Core2 CPUs, were pasted. CPUs like the E2140/60/80/2200/2220. AFAIK, you can still find those CPUs, working.

And what connection this issue has specifically with fanless PCs, I can't fathom. Unless you're trying to tell me that you intend to run them out of spec.?

If I have to, I'll underclock it to lower the wattage.

The way I see it, a fanless PC, due to the absence of fans, is more vulnerable to the issue if it occurs, as fans can keep the board cooler, which may help to minimize the heating of the attached core. Fanless cooling is a challenge by itself, and needs more care in ensuring that no additional thermal challenges exist.

 

[PeterScott]

I'm not here to discuss mainstream PCs or what goes for most people. My aimed PC is fanless, and yes, I do intend to keep it for more than 6 years. Thus I am concerned with its longevity being counteracted by this problem.

It's only been 6 years since paste use started, and there hasn't been enough fanless PCs to have meaningful statistics.

Thanks for raising the question. The 1st generation of Ryzen had paste.
The 2nd generation processors have been confirmed to have soldered IHS:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/7xmmlp/ryzen_refresh_to_feature_soldered_dies_not_tim/

Official video
2nd Gen AMD Ryzen™ Processors: Built for Enthusiasts, by Enthusiasts

While I have no idea why you think TIM presents a durability issue, if you want a fanless PC, presumably without a GPU card, you are looking at part with TIM either way.

Ryzen CPUs have solder, Ryzen APUs have TIM. No sign of that changing.

So if you want a part for your Fanless PC with solder you aren't going to find one, as iGP/APU parts from both Intel and AMD use TIM.

Again not getting your concerns over durability. I have a 10 year old GPU going strong on it's original TIM.

 

[New Goer]

While I have no idea why you think TIM presents a durability issue, if you want a fanless PC, presumably without a GPU card, you are looking at part with TIM either way.

Ryzen CPUs have solder, Ryzen APUs have TIM. No sign of that changing.

So if you want a part for your Fanless PC with solder you aren't going to find one, as iGP/APU parts from both Intel and AMD use TIM.

Again not getting your concerns over durability. I have a 10 year old GPU going strong on it's original TIM.

Good examples of longevity with TIM do not invalidate the fact that solder is superior, which is important in the case of powerful processors in a fanless PC. There might be bad examples out there of such processors failing.

I found out today the info you've pointed out (APUs have TIM); but I still prefer AMD now, as Intel cheated by hiding their shift to paste from the public until someone exposed it. They even, allegedly, use bad TIM. I don't like big fat corp's gaining monopoly and taking advantage of it, and if a rival makes a similar (and probably superior) product, why don't we support them?

My new question now is which AMD product is best for my purpose?
Is it possible to have a GPU card in a fanless PC without bad consequences?
Is their any option without TIM or without IHS?

 

[PeterScott]

Good examples of longevity with TIM do not invalidate the fact that solder is superior, which is important in the case of powerful processors in a fanless PC. There might be bad examples out there of such processors failing.

I found out today the info you've pointed out (APUs have TIM); but I still prefer AMD now, as Intel cheated by hiding their shift to paste from the public until someone exposed it. They even, allegedly, use bad TIM. I don't like big fat corp's gaining monopoly and taking advantage of it, and if a rival makes a similar (and probably superior) product, why don't we support them?

My new question now is which AMD product is best for my purpose?
Is it possible to have a GPU card in a fanless PC without bad consequences?
Is their any option without TIM or without IHS?

I think you are getting little biased there. Where did AMD proclaim to the world that the APUs were using TIM?

That said for a box without a GPU I prefer AMD APU because they have better GPU section.

2200G is the best value APU IMO, and should use less power than the more expensive 2400G despite them sharing a 65W TDP rating.

Though you should probably still have a 65W fanless enclosure.