Conservative SC Rep. Doug Brannon to introduce bill to remove Confederate flag

[fskimospy]

What about HuffingtonPost???

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/bill-clinton-arkansas-confederate_n_7638542.html

A meaningless bill signed by her husband a quarter century ago seems to be the height of pointlessness as to Hillary's feelings on the topic.

 

[CU]

I hardly see how that's relevant. The South repeatedly used the power of the federal government to force northern states to enforce the South's concept of property in a way they found objectionable. It is ironic and frankly hypocritical that the South would secede because it feared the federal government would force them to abandon slavery but had no problem with having the federal government force the north to participate in its perpetuation.

Again, it shows how full of shit the 'state's rights' argument really was. They wanted slavery rights, not state rights. It's okay to admit that.

Seems relevant to me. My example was suppose to make it more understandable. But obviously we don't see eye to eye on certain things.

So again, as I said, it wasn't just the wealthy.

This source seems to say it was the wealthy that owned them. Here is once example from it.
"Over 80 percent of the free adult males in the South did not own slaves. Only 0.11 percent owned more than 100. The total estate for those in the upper tail of the distribution was enormous. It should be emphasized that this is not a small elite; as a group, slave owners were sizeable and wealthy. Those with more than 500 slaves were essentially millionaires in $1860."
http://www.measuringworth.com/slavery.php

Irrelevant?

I was trying to show or ask if you thought that the CSA was aggressive to other countries like Nazi Germany was since that comparison keeps coming up. And, we agreed actions matter.

Have you considered this may also be a function of who you associate with? I find it extremely likely that some people in your area view it as a symbol of racism.

As I didn't ask every person I saw it is likely. But, I have never seen in person a negative reaction to a rebel flag, excluding protests as those are organized events.

Of course what I say doesn't decide what everyone thinks, it decides what I think. Lots of people happen to share my view that it is a symbol of racism, including lots of people you live near I expect. Flying symbols of racism makes you a shitty person in my opinion, and I find ignorance of what it represents to other people to be no excuse.

You have a choice to make. Like anyone else you can feel free to embrace symbols that large portions of the country see as symbols of racist slave states if they are important to you as a symbol of your heritage. You should be prepared to accept the consequences of that choice though, which is that other people will view you as ignorant, bigoted, or both.

Finally, your forgiveness is not needed or wanted. Let me reiterate: if you purposefully fly the Confederate flag you're acting like a shithead.

Having a symbol mean something different than another person is not ignorance. Do you honestly believe symbols can not change what they mean to people. Several ancient civilizations had slaves and societies based on race and cultural superiority. All their symbols are not still considered racists? I would bet some can be found in present day flags and seals.

I would hope most people are smart enough not to judge someone so quickly, unfortunately you are probably correct and most people will jump to conclusions. Especially after current events.

I was raised to forgive people who call people names or do other injustices and to respect other peoples views. Your name calling shows how we differ here also.

 

[HomerJS]

What about HuffingtonPost???

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/bill-clinton-arkansas-confederate_n_7638542.html

So you have Clinton from 1987 vs the hundreds of Democrats since then trying to eliminate it.

When any Republican dared speak out the racist base hit back. Just ask John McCain from 2000 election vs Bush who then retreated. McCain later in a speech said he was afraid to speak out because of that backlash

Got any prominent Republicans who worked to remove the flag until last week???

 

[CU]

Why would they become hard to get?

Walmart will no longer sale them. Other stores could very well follow suit. Any time you limit supply, something becomes harder to get. So, actually it is already harder to find one now than last week. If only by a small percentage.

 

[OutHouse]

Got any prominent Republicans who worked to remove the flag until last week???

Mitt Romney.
Mitch McConnell.

 

[fskimospy]

This source seems to say it was the wealthy that owned them. Here is once example from it.
"Over 80 percent of the free adult males in the South did not own slaves. Only 0.11 percent owned more than 100. The total estate for those in the upper tail of the distribution was enormous. It should be emphasized that this is not a small elite; as a group, slave owners were sizeable and wealthy. Those with more than 500 slaves were essentially millionaires in $1860."
http://www.measuringworth.com/slavery.php

Bolding is mine. From my source, the numbers were higher but in both cases our sources agree that large numbers of people in the south were slaveowners, not some small cadre at the top.

As I didn't ask every person I saw it is likely. But, I have never seen in person a negative reaction to a rebel flag, excluding protests as those are organized events.

It seems odd to not include protests, considering that is exactly how I would think opposition to the flag would be most readily displayed. You're basically saying "I've never seen anyone here have a negative reaction to the confederate flag so long as we don't count all those people who reacted negatively to the confederate flag".

Having a symbol mean something different than another person is not ignorance. Do you honestly believe symbols can not change what they mean to people. Several ancient civilizations had slaves and societies based on race and cultural superiority. All their symbols are not still considered racists? I would bet some can be found in present day flags and seals.

I would hope most people are smart enough not to judge someone so quickly, unfortunately you are probably correct and most people will jump to conclusions. Especially after current events.

Like I've said repeatedly, those ancient civilizations were not created expressly for that purpose as the Confederacy was.

I was raised to forgive people who call people names or do other injustices and to respect other peoples views. Your name calling shows how we differ here also.

I was raised with a respect for history as well as with a sufficient respect for human dignity to unequivocally condemn organizations that existed for the purpose of enslaving and denigrating entire races of people. I guess we differ on those two points.

On that note, do you have any response to this? The sheer weight of primary source evidence as to the racism embodied in the confederate flag is simply damning:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

 

[chucky2]

LOL Nick

 

[Londo_Jowo]

A meaningless bill signed by her husband a quarter century ago seems to be the height of pointlessness as to Hillary's feelings on the topic.

🙄 You should stop taking whatever you're taking as it's making you imagine things are being said/posted.

 

[fskimospy]

🙄 You should stop taking whatever you're taking as it's making you imagine things are being said/posted.

If you're not trying to reference it to Hillary then it makes no sense as your example doesn't fit into the time frame that was being talked about. I was just trying to help you out 🙂

 

[Thebobo]

Governor is a wimp she could of just ordered it taken down.

 

[CU]

Walmart will no longer sale them. Other stores could very well follow suit. Any time you limit supply, something becomes harder to get. So, actually it is already harder to find one now than last week. If only by a small percentage.

Looks like Sears, Kmart, and ebay joined Walmart. I would assume Amazon will follow. Who knows how hard it will eventually be to find one, but it certainly is going to be harder.

Ebay is banning Confederate flags and related items containing the flag's image. Does that include confederate artifacts, historical documents, history books, games, toys, TV shows, movies, some official state flags, etc?

 

[OutHouse]

Looks like Sears, Kmart, and ebay joined Walmart. I would assume Amazon will follow. Who knows how hard it will eventually be to find one, but it certainly is going to be harder.

Ebay is banning Confederate flags and related items containing the flag's image. Does that include confederate artifacts, historical documents, history books, games, toys, TV shows, movies, some official state flags, etc?

but they dont ban the Nazi shit? good grief.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

If you're not trying to reference it to Hillary then it makes no sense as your example doesn't fit into the time frame that was being talked about. I was just trying to help you out 🙂

Hmmmmm OutHouse posted

Governor Bill Clinton, 1987, signed into law an act that commemorated the Confederacy with a blue star in the Arkansas state flag.

HomerJS reply to OutHouse

If you read something besides Newsmax you would know your facts are incorrect

My post to HomerJS

What about HuffingtonPost???

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/bill-clinton-arkansas-confederate_n_7638542.html

You aren't helping you're just doing your same ole putting words in other mouths and acting like a political hack.

 

[Jimzz]

Looks like Sears, Kmart, and ebay joined Walmart. I would assume Amazon will follow. Who knows how hard it will eventually be to find one, but it certainly is going to be harder.

Ebay is banning Confederate flags and related items containing the flag's image. Does that include confederate artifacts, historical documents, history books, games, toys, TV shows, movies, some official state flags, etc?

Yea I don't understand ebay banning. They do not really sell anything other than a space. They list many other offensive items, so this may backfire if people start pushing to ban Nazi items for example.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Looks like Sears, Kmart, and ebay joined Walmart. I would assume Amazon will follow. Who knows how hard it will eventually be to find one, but it certainly is going to be harder.

Ebay is banning Confederate flags and related items containing the flag's image. Does that include confederate artifacts, historical documents, history books, games, toys, TV shows, movies, some official state flags, etc?

I just checked ebay and there's still confederate flag auctions.

They're selling like hotcakes too.

 

[fskimospy]

Hmmmmm OutHouse posted

HomerJS reply to OutHouse

My post to HomerJS

You aren't helping you're just doing your same ole putting words in other mouths and acting like a political hack.

And Outhouse posted that in response to this:

Oh that old Dixiecrat argument. Read a book, esp the chapter on the Southern Strategy.

BTW - Democrats have been trying to get rid of that fucking flag for over 20 years with no help from Republicans.

ie: not even close to 20 years ago.

 

[fskimospy]

I just checked ebay and there's still confederate flag auctions.

They're selling like hotcakes too.

Is this going to be another one of those stupid things where conservatives give a whole bunch of money to people in some show of political solidarity?

God I wish I had an armload of those flags onhand. You could probably make some decent money fleecing these idiots.

 

[Svnla]

Confederate flags sales are sky high on Amazon = http://abcnews.go.com/Business/sales-confederate-flags-skyrocket-amazon/story?id=31972541

 

[CitizenKain]

Is this going to be another one of those stupid things where conservatives give a whole bunch of money to people in some show of political solidarity?

God I wish I had an armload of those flags onhand. You could probably make some decent money fleecing these idiots.

I bet holding onto the flags and waiting for a big gun show will pay huge money. The flags always look nice next to a booth selling copies of The Turner Diaries and nazi memorabilia.

 

[CU]

Bolding is mine. From my source, the numbers were higher but in both cases our sources agree that large numbers of people in the south were slaveowners, not some small cadre at the top.

You said "The idea that only wealthy southerners owned slaves is a common misconception." It says wealthy. My source says 80.11% didn't own slaves. That is over 2/3 majority didn't own slaves. Is 20% a large number. Who knows. It isn't 50%, but it isn't 5% either. Obvious the author thinks 20% is a large number. But, my point was wealthy southerns more than the number of wealthy southerns.

It seems odd to not include protests, considering that is exactly how I would think opposition to the flag would be most readily displayed. You're basically saying "I've never seen anyone here have a negative reaction to the confederate flag so long as we don't count all those people who reacted negatively to the confederate flag".

The reason I didn't include protest as people feed off each other in events like that. I was looking for a more pure of heart reaction an not one that could be fueled by a group of people. Even if I include protests this recent one is the only one I can remember recently. It is not like they have them daily. It only happened because of the killing.

Like I've said repeatedly, those ancient civilizations were not created expressly for that purpose as the Confederacy was.

Some of those civilizations enslaved most of who they conquered. They may not have written it down, but they saw themselves as better and enslaved the others to fuel their economy. Their actions speak for themselves. Wikipedia has several articles on civilizations that did that.

I was raised with a respect for history as well as with a sufficient respect for human dignity to unequivocally condemn organizations that existed for the purpose of enslaving and denigrating entire races of people. I guess we differ on those two points.

If all the rebel flag meant to people was enslavement and racism, I would condemn the flag. Unfortunately it means differently things to people. It represents rebellion against a central government, Southern heritage from before and after the war, or just rebellion in general and going against the grain. And many more things. I see both sides of the argument, which is why I will accept it when the flag is removed. I do wish it was not fueled by the recent massacre, politics, outside pressure, etc. Emotion driven decision are often not smart ones.

I also condemn slavery, but not the CSA as a whole. The writings in their succession letters mentioned slavery because it was the final straw and it was where the money was at. If they North had forbid growing cotton or other crops at all to force industrialization that would have been in there. Even though they would have still had slaves. But, they were also fighting for the right of succession which I believe states should have the rights to do. There were no shots fired or at least real fighting until Lincoln and Buchanan refused to leave Fort Sumter. Then it became a fight for succession among other things. I can find and see multiply view points, so I find it hard to condemn it all. I just always see things from multiply prospects and find the good and bad in things.

On that note, do you have any response to this? The sheer weight of primary source evidence as to the racism embodied in the confederate flag is simply damning:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

That is pretty long, I will get back to you tonight when I have time to read it.

 

[Ackmed]

You should really open a history book. Perhaps the chapters on the American Civil War and Germany: 1930-1945. The Nazi flag and the Confederate flag in question are entirely relatable - both symbols of lost causes of governments fighting for the reprehensible and vial ideal of racial supremacy. You can try and twist like a pretzel about how origins of the swastika were different so it doesn't really mean the symbols carry similar meaning. But for the most part, the origin of the swastika is irrelevant to its modern day, western meaning, all thanks to the Nazis.

The only way that they are relatable is that they have different meanings. The Nazi's adopted the swastika, and used it to further then agenda. That does not mean that the symbol itself is bad. It is actually common around the world. I saw several made into a fence for a Church no less while in Kampala, Africa. Why? Because it has several meaning that are good from 12,000 years ago. Other countries too, I saw it while in Italy all over the place, in tombs, in church's, in extremely old structures. The symbol is so much older than the nazi's.

I am not trying to twist anything, just providing facts. I don't give a shit about either symbol and own nothing that bears either's mark, never have. I'm indifferent in taking it down, really doesn't matter to me.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/symbol-swastika-and-its-12000-year-old-history-001312

 

[CU]

Looks like Sears, Kmart, and ebay joined Walmart. I would assume Amazon will follow. Who knows how hard it will eventually be to find one, but it certainly is going to be harder.

Ebay is banning Confederate flags and related items containing the flag's image. Does that include confederate artifacts, historical documents, history books, games, toys, TV shows, movies, some official state flags, etc?

Amazon has followed them. You won't need to outlaw it, no large sized company will make or sale it if this keeps up. Anyone know of a big store that sales them? Just wondering who is next. I can't say I ever thought I would see this happen over the course of a week.

 

[Ackmed]

The State should just let the people vote if it stays up or not. Not the people who sit in seats, that have power, but the citizens. If they don't want it, take it down. That'll never happen though.

 

[K1052]

I can find and see multiply view points, so I find it hard to condemn it all. I just always see things from multiply prospects and find the good and bad in things.

What good things did the CSA stand for? Just being rebellious isn't a virtue in and of iteslf since it entirely hinges on the motivation for said rebellion. The secession movement hinged on the institution of slavery, both it's preservation and expansion. I fail to see the merit in this goal.

 

[echo4747]

Even though I personally am against flying the Confederate flag on public property,it wouldn't surprise me if all the hoopla (Walmart,Sears etc now banning it) about the Confederate flag actually becomes used as a recruitment tool for fringe "white power" groups.