Conservative Radio Host Gets Waterboarded To Prove It's Not Torture; Lasts 6 Seconds

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: jjzelinski

Harvey, try expressing yourself without the unabated vitriol. I enjoyed your posts much more in the past when you weren't so hateful.

Those who condone torture or say waterboarding isn't torture are the most hateful of all.

So you admit you are the most hateful of all? You are calling for the waterboarding of conservatives. What is more hateful? Calling for the torture of American citizens who disagree with you. Or calling for the torture of terrorists?

Except

a) It seems that conservatives don't consider waterboarding torture

and

b) This VOLUNTARY waterboarding is far less painful than what our captives were experiencing, at least these asshats have a say in when to stop

So, put up or shut up, if you believe waterboarding isn't torture or it's morally ok to do, then get waterboarded and experience for yourself.

First of all, prove that all conservatives don't think waterboarding is torture. If you can't do that, then your statement of 'WATERBOARD ALL CONSERVATIVES' is indeed a call to torture people who do consider it torture. Further proof many liberals like yourself would prefer to torture political opponents and let terrorists go free.

Not all, but it seems like whether you think waterboarding is torture or not is a litmus test to see whether you're a 'true conservative' or another 'rino'. There are also those who believe waterboarding is ok even if it is torture. This is a call for all you conservatives to experience it yourselves. Just like mancow thought it was no big deal before doing it, you should subject yourself to waterboarding and wake up as well. This would effectively end the torture debate once and for it.

I'm not even asking you to experience REAL waterboarding, just the very controlled waterboarding these media hacks are experiencing.

Yet you say 'WATERBOARD ALL CONSERVATIVES'.. So why are you being sub-human? You didn't say 'WATERBOARD ALL CONSERVATIVES WHO THINK WATERBOARDING IS OK'. I do believe that makes you sub-human by your own definition. Unless you are admitting you support torturing people who disagree with your politically?

I'm telling you to put up or shut up. This isn't even 'real' waterboarding you twit. People who support waterboarding prisoners are subhuman because that's REAL waterboarding. Mancow did NOT experience the true horrifying effect of waterboarding, his hands were not tied and he wasn't on an incline and he stopped at merely 6 seconds of waterboarding. Prisoners can't just tell their captors to stop whenever they want, otherwise it wouldn't be real torture.

Why should I have to put up or shut up? Have you not seen any of my posts? I think waterboarding is torture. I also think we should do it if its necessary and useful to help protect the safety of our country. I also agree to be waterboarded if I engage in an act of terrorism or plan to against another country. How is this inconsistent?

But could you again please explain how you are not the sub-human POS you claim conservatives are? You are calling for the waterboarding of ALL conservatives. Waterboarding which you and I _BOTH_ agree is torture. Yet you want to do it to people who AGREE that its torture, how does that not make you the sub-human POS?

If you think waterboarding is torture and you think it should be done when it's 'necessary and useful', then it's still consistent with you being subhuman... hell maybe even worse, at least with someone who doesn't think it's torture, they may at least have an excuse as to why they think waterboarding is ok to do (although doubtful), whereas YOU HAVE NO QUALMS ABOUT TORTURING SOMEONE EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW IT'S REALLY TORTURE.

I'm not asking you and your ilk to experience REAL waterboarding, i'm asking you to experience what mancow experience AS IT WAS LINKED IN MY SIG.

I wish you'd answer my question as to how you are not the sub-human POS you claim others to be? You, by you own words, would support of the torture of conservatives who agree with you on torture and don't support waterboarding. So my only reasonable explanation of that is that you are pro-torture of people who disagree with you on issues like taxes, social programs, etc.

Because it's entirely consistent, the 'waterboarding' mancow endured is a sissy variation of what detainees endure and it's ENTIRELY VOLUNTARY.

Would you agree that voluntary waterboarding is ok?

Ok, explain this to me like I am a 4 year old because I am not getting it. Conservatives who think waterboarding IS TORTURE, and it SHOULD NOT BE USED, SHOULD be waterboarded, according to your own admission. Does that not put YOU YOURSELF into a position to be waterboarded because you support torture? PUT UP OR SHUT UP. You are opening calling for the torture of people who AGREE with you that torture is wrong and should not be used.

:roll: conservatives who consider waterboarding torture, wrong, and shouldn't be used get kicked out of the conservative movement and aren't considered conservatives, get it?

It's real simple:

a) I believe people who condone REAL waterboarding where it's done against the detainee's will and where it's done 'right' (i.e. NOT how mancow had it done on him) to be subhuman scum

b) I am openly inviting you conservative scumbags to VOLUNTARILY submit to the mancow waterboarding which is not even a fraction as bad what detainees experience because your hands are not tied down, you don't believe you will drown, and you aren't on an incline.

That's quite consistent you twit.

You are completely losing me here. Conservatism by definition now is defined as a person supporting torture? Could you point me to a credible source which defines conservatism as such? If you cannot, you are the sub-human POS you claim people who support torture are and should be tortured by your own definition.

As to your second point. I AM AGREEING TO BE TORTURED IF I ENGAGE IN AN ACT OF TERRORISM. Full fledged, 100% waterboarding. If I engage in an act of terrorism or get caught in a plan to commit an act of terrorism.

a) Yes, this is the culture war, if you don't believe in waterboarding, you're a pansy liberal who's 'weak on terrorism', according to the conservative mantra.

b) Your second point is what makes you subhuman scum, there is NEVER AN EXCUSE TO TORTURE SOMEONE UNDER OUR PROTECTIVE CUSTODY.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: Harvey


You can't prove that torture comes anywhere close to "looking like it works." Even if you could, all you prove by advocating it is that you're willing to become the immoral, subhuman evil you claim you want to defeat.

Do all mods on this site engage in elemantary school esque namecalling, or just this particular mod? Every time he tries to make a point, he has to lace it with four or five insults. Every time.

Do you see me moderating in this thread? If not, I'm free to speak my mind just as any other member.

Now that that's settled, torture is illegal in almost every country in the world, it violates the Geneva Conventions and other binding treaties between nations, and it basically betrays every American value ours troops have fought and died to defend for over two hundred years.

There is nothing I can say that could possibly be insulting enough about any immoral, sub-human POS who would defend torture.

Got a problem with it? Call a mod.

@railer

I'd say that Harvey is spot on in this case. Supporting torture is sub-human and immoral.

Maybe you should look in the mirror and think real hard about what you think you are supporting.

Yeah, just like killing another human being is sub-human and immoral. But there are time and places where that's done without queston and after thoughts, like during a war. Sure there are still limits for the civilized, like not killing civilian. It's the same with torture, it's not something you do with with a smile on your face. But during war, for certain targets, when the result could save life, I'd support doing it even if it's against some convention bunch of diplomats and politian come up with to make themselves feel good and righteous. I'd say f'u to those politicians and all you ppl who wanna prosecute those people on the ground for doing things to save American people/soldier's life, following the rules of engagement like not targeting civilians, against enemy combatants belong to a group which has killed American civilians, beheaded American citizen and solidiers.

Either way, I think enough has been said and that's it for me.

Wrong. Killing someone is self-defense is WAY different from murder. Do you not see the difference?

And given you subscribe to this mythical "ticking time bomb", "do it to get intel to save lives", how do you figure that waterbaording someone for 2 months or so will get intel that isn't already out of date?

Especially since several reports are out now saying KSM was waterboarded on Cheney's orders to try and link AQ with Saddam. That's not saving lives, that's political CYA.

And I'll also give you a big "f'u" for people like you that support breaking the laws of this country, just because they are scared and they feel they have the "right" to do what they want, laws be damned. Can we aterbarod "suspected" criminals now? Say murder suspects?

I love how people rationalize breaking the law by this "they did something illegal, so that gives me permission to something illegal to". That isn't true, did your parents tell you to break the law when you saw the law being broken? I hope not.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: rchiu
Singapore a third world country? Bwahahaha.....that shows how much you ppl know about world affair. Singapore is one of the cleanest and most orderly city/country there is. Kids don't vandalize public property. People follow rules for public safety and order. Maybe the US should follow what they are doing there so ppl here don't always think they entitle to everything.

A loyal slave learns to love the lash.

Originally posted by: Nitemare
I'm not in jail, but ask yourself.

Would you steal knowing the punishment would be imprisonment of sleeping on the floor, you'd be caned or tortured, your meals would be squalid and offer minimum nutrients to sustain you?

I'm just saying, if our prison system was a friggin nitemare for convicts, most of them would think twice before committing the act. In the US though who cares, more often than not it's a better life than what some of them have on the outside.

Try reading the article for a change.

What sort of complete idiot school do people go to where they pick up a belief like this? Is it a correspondence school or something? People can't be this stupid naturally can they?

 

[Phokus]

Mancow on Olbermann... still reaffirms that waterboarding is torture

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...intervie_n_207963.html

Funny thing, his friend Sean Hannity called him up and told him it's still not torture

Hannity is scum and a coward for not following through with his promise to be waterboarded. He's a microcosm of all conservatives in this country.

 

[dali71]

Originally posted by: Phokus
Mancow on Olbermann... still reaffirms that waterboarding is torture

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...intervie_n_207963.html

Funny thing, his friend Sean Hannity called him up and told him it's still not torture

Hannity is scum and a coward for not following through with his promise to be waterboarded. He's a microcosm of all conservatives in this country.

Alec Baldwin, Robert Altman, and Eddie Vedder are scum for not following through with their promises to leave the country if Bush was elected. They are a microcosm of all liberals in this country.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Phokus
Mancow on Olbermann... still reaffirms that waterboarding is torture

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...intervie_n_207963.html

Funny thing, his friend Sean Hannity called him up and told him it's still not torture

Hannity is scum and a coward for not following through with his promise to be waterboarded. He's a microcosm of all conservatives in this country.

The kind of scum that would waterboard ALL conservatives scum or some other kind of scum?

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Phokus
Mancow on Olbermann... still reaffirms that waterboarding is torture

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...intervie_n_207963.html

Funny thing, his friend Sean Hannity called him up and told him it's still not torture

Hannity is scum and a coward for not following through with his promise to be waterboarded. He's a microcosm of all conservatives in this country.

The kind of scum that would waterboard ALL conservatives scum or some other kind of scum?

The kind of scum who can't differentiate between weak VOLUNTARY waterboarding and hardcore torture

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: dali71

Originally posted by: Phokus
Mancow on Olbermann... still reaffirms that waterboarding is torture

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...intervie_n_207963.html

Funny thing, his friend Sean Hannity called him up and told him it's still not torture

Hannity is scum and a coward for not following through with his promise to be waterboarded. He's a microcosm of all conservatives in this country.

Alec Baldwin, Robert Altman, and Eddie Vedder are scum for not following through with their promises to leave the country if Bush was elected. They are a microcosm of all liberals in this country.

It's not only the broken promise that makes one scum, it's also the belief that the government should engage in human degradation that makes you scum.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
More journalists have experienced it than Islamic Terrorists. We don?t use it often, does the target matter at all to you?

Isn't that ironic??

We gave it up years ago and only used it on 3 people. Let it go already.

We don't rape detainees' chldren to death in froont of them very often. Only for three detainees. Let it go already.

No. It should never be done. We should strengthen our laws against it, and resume prosecution of anyone who does it to our people.

Our righties still don't get it. They still think it's 'ok' if you really want info. If they had their way, there would have been no outcry againt it, and it'd be ok to use more widely.

It's tourture reading your posts.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: Evan

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
More journalists have experienced it than Islamic Terrorists. We don?t use it often, does the target matter at all to you?

Isn't that ironic??

We gave it up years ago and only used it on 3 people. Let it go already.

"Only" 3 people. rofl, what a moral cop out. You fringe ideological wimps are too predictable.

I don't care if they did it to a thousand people. If it saved American lives, it was worth it. And you pansies should be glad all they did was waterboard them, they're still alive, they have all the body parts they had when they went into the ordeal. Can't say the same thing for the way other countries tourture people. Cut off body parts or slice them up. Cook parts with flamethrowers, real tourture is done out of cruelty and from sick minds.
I know liberals care less about Americans than they do poor foreigners that would rather see us dead.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: Nitemare
I'm not in jail, but ask yourself.

Would you steal knowing the punishment would be imprisonment of sleeping on the floor, you'd be caned or tortured, your meals would be squalid and offer minimum nutrients to sustain you?

I'm just saying, if our prison system was a friggin nitemare for convicts, most of them would think twice before committing the act. In the US though who cares, more often than not it's a better life than what some of them have on the outside.

Try reading the article for a change.

What sort of complete idiot school do people go to where they pick up a belief like this? Is it a correspondence school or something? People can't be this stupid naturally can they?

Some people refer to it as common sense, which quite a few people lack. I take it you have never had a course on human behavior or sociology/psychology?

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: Evan

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
More journalists have experienced it than Islamic Terrorists. We don?t use it often, does the target matter at all to you?

Isn't that ironic??

We gave it up years ago and only used it on 3 people. Let it go already.

"Only" 3 people. rofl, what a moral cop out. You fringe ideological wimps are too predictable.

I don't care if they did it to a thousand people. If it saved American lives, it was worth it. And you pansies should be glad all they did was waterboard them, they're still alive, they have all the body parts they had when they went into the ordeal. Can't say the same thing for the way other countries tourture people. Cut off body parts or slice them up. Cook parts with flamethrowers, real tourture is done out of cruelty and from sick minds.
I know liberals care less about Americans than they do poor foreigners that would rather see us dead.

I guess that rape isn't really a crime then, huh, Mr Internettoughguy, since rape is temporary and isn't as bad as murder. Your attempted reasoning sucks.

Really great morals you have there. What a class person you are to support torture of innocent people.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

I don't care if they did it to a thousand people. If it saved American lives, it was worth it.

So now that you know it didn't save even ONE American life, are you proud that you just admitted you're another sick, perverted, ethically challenged, immoral, sub-human piece of shit? :shocked:

You are a disgrace to every human value embodied in our once honored, once valued U.S. Constitution, values that Americans have fought and died to preserve for over two hundred years. :thumbsdown: :|

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

I don't care if they did it to a thousand people. If it saved American lives, it was worth it.

So now that you know it didn't save even ONE American life, are you proud that you just admitted you're another sick, perverted, ethically challenged, immoral, sub-human piece of shit? :shocked:

You are a disgrace to every human value embodied in our once honored, once valued U.S. Constitution, values that Americans have fought and died to preserve for over two hundred years. :thumbsdown: :|

Proof.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: Evan

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
More journalists have experienced it than Islamic Terrorists. We don?t use it often, does the target matter at all to you?

Isn't that ironic??

We gave it up years ago and only used it on 3 people. Let it go already.

"Only" 3 people. rofl, what a moral cop out. You fringe ideological wimps are too predictable.

I don't care if they did it to a thousand people. If it saved American lives, it was worth it. And you pansies should be glad all they did was waterboard them, they're still alive, they have all the body parts they had when they went into the ordeal. Can't say the same thing for the way other countries tourture people. Cut off body parts or slice them up. Cook parts with flamethrowers, real tourture is done out of cruelty and from sick minds.
I know liberals care less about Americans than they do poor foreigners that would rather see us dead.

An opposition to torture, even if it resulted in increased safety, has nothing to do with American lives vs foreign lives...it's about principles and morals, which used to mean something in this country. Evan's wrong...you guys aren't "ideological wimps", you're actual wimps. And more than that, you're cowards. You're willing to trade the just and right ideals this country was founded on for nothing more than the promise of increased safety. Think about what you're arguing for, really. It's easy to argue that it's just the terrorists who are harmed by waterboarding, but that's not true at all. When we do things like that, it damages America far more than anything some cave dwelling idiots could ever dream of accomplishing.

I read a very interesting OP-ED today, in the Washington Times of all places, which took the position that people who are pro-torture/anti-civil liberties in their quest to fight terrorism are the moral and ideological equivalent of people who suggested during the Cold War that becoming communist to appease the Soviet Union was better than dying fighting communism (the opposite of "Better Dead than Red"). An odd comparison, considering the former group wants to FIGHT the enemy while the latter group wanted to surrender to it...but it actually makes a lot of sense. The enemy in question makes no difference, the reason the actions are similar is because it's all about abandoning what makes us American and what makes this a great country in pursuit of increased SAFETY. I assume this isn't what the pro-torture think they are doing, but the end result is pretty much the same.

Cliff notes, read my signature line...

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: Evan

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
More journalists have experienced it than Islamic Terrorists. We don?t use it often, does the target matter at all to you?

Isn't that ironic??

We gave it up years ago and only used it on 3 people. Let it go already.

"Only" 3 people. rofl, what a moral cop out. You fringe ideological wimps are too predictable.

I don't care if they did it to a thousand people. If it saved American lives, it was worth it. And you pansies should be glad all they did was waterboard them, they're still alive, they have all the body parts they had when they went into the ordeal. Can't say the same thing for the way other countries tourture people. Cut off body parts or slice them up. Cook parts with flamethrowers, real tourture is done out of cruelty and from sick minds.
I know liberals care less about Americans than they do poor foreigners that would rather see us dead.

I guess that rape isn't really a crime then, huh, Mr Internettoughguy, since rape is temporary and isn't as bad as murder. Your attempted reasoning sucks.

Really great morals you have there. What a class person you are to support torture of innocent people.

My previous post says why I think so, but I feel compelled to point out that "tough guys" usually aren't the ones saying they'll do anything as long as it keeps them safe. A REAL tough guy, on the Internet or otherwise, would stand up for his principles even in the face of the threat of terrorism. I mean you're right, clearly "tough guy" is the image a lot of people who support torture are trying to convey, but they seem to widely miss the mark. "Getting tough" to fight terrorism is usually anything but.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
More journalists have experienced it than Islamic Terrorists. We don?t use it often, does the target matter at all to you?

Isn't that ironic??

We gave it up years ago and only used it on 3 people. Let it go already.

We don't rape detainees' chldren to death in froont of them very often. Only for three detainees. Let it go already.

No. It should never be done. We should strengthen our laws against it, and resume prosecution of anyone who does it to our people.

Our righties still don't get it. They still think it's 'ok' if you really want info. If they had their way, there would have been no outcry againt it, and it'd be ok to use more widely.

It's tourture reading your posts.

AKA "The truth hurts".

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

I don't care if they did it to a thousand people. If it saved American lives, it was worth it.

So now that you know it didn't save even ONE American life, are you proud that you just admitted you're another sick, perverted, ethically challenged, immoral, sub-human piece of shit? :shocked:

You are a disgrace to every human value embodied in our once honored, once valued U.S. Constitution, values that Americans have fought and died to preserve for over two hundred years. :thumbsdown: :|

Proof.

You and other sick, perverted, ethically challenged, immoral, sub-human pieces of shit are the ones pimping the idea that heinous crimes like torture can somehow be justified, even though the acts you're advocating are crimes under U.S. and international laws and treaties and a violation of basic human values.

I don't have to prove anything. Of course, I could just refer you to years of posts by me and many others who knew better, then, and still know better, now, but why bother? You didn't accept the evidence we posted in the past. We have no reason to believe you'd be smart enough to understand it, now.

It's up to you to prove otherwise, and you know you can't provide even one piece of evidence to do so.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

I don't care if they did it to a thousand people. If it saved American lives, it was worth it.

So now that you know it didn't save even ONE American life, are you proud that you just admitted you're another sick, perverted, ethically challenged, immoral, sub-human piece of shit? :shocked:

You are a disgrace to every human value embodied in our once honored, once valued U.S. Constitution, values that Americans have fought and died to preserve for over two hundred years. :thumbsdown: :|

Proof.

You and other sick, perverted, ethically challenged, immoral, sub-human pieces of shit are the ones pimping the idea that heinous crimes like torture can somehow be justified, even though the acts you're advocating are crimes under U.S. and international laws and treaties and a violation of basic human values.

I don't have to prove anything. Of course, I could just refer you to years of posts by me and many others who knew better, then, and still know better, now, but why bother? You didn't accept the evidence we posted in the past. We have no reason to believe you'd be smart enough to understand it, now.

It's up to you to prove otherwise, and you know you can't provide even one piece of evidence to do so.

Its not up to me, your Messiah in Chief holds all the cards on that. And him and his cabal of traitors and murders have decided not to release it. The next best thing is the former VP of the United States who says it did work. Since YOU made the claim that it didn't save one live. PROVE it or you are a sub-human LIAR and a COWARD.

Since you are so quick to label me a sub-human I can only assume that you would not grant me the same basic human rights that you grant to terrorists.

 

[Carmen813]

Fear No Evil,
The entire premise of your argument is flawed because you speak in absolutes. Presumably, if you tortured everyone, just by sheer luck you'd obtain information that would prevent a terrorist attack. The question isn't if it works, but if it is necessary. Based on the interrogators who have spoken in front of Congress, the very people we trust to find this information and prevent these attacks, "enhanced interrogation" only makes collecting information more difficult.

Cheney is conducting a classic bait and switch. The argument started as "we do not torture." It morphed into "water boarding isn't torture." Now it's "torturing saves lives." Each time has been a simple human attempt at rationalizing inexcusable behavior. It's caused by the guilt of know what you did was wrong, but not having the strength to admit it.

Here's a fact: We will be attacked again. It's inevitable. Torturing these people did not make you safe, continuing to torture them will not make you safer. There is in fact a great deal of evidence that these actions made us less safe, not only by serving as an Al-Qaeda recruiting tool, but by severely damaging our relationships with our allies, upon whom we depend upon to fight the war on terror. When we are attacked, and mark my words, we will be attacked, Cheney (and his ilk, if he isn't around) plans to turn around and scream that if we had "enhanced interrogations" we would not have been attacked. It's a completely ridiculous and false premise, but that is exactly where he is going. Sad thing is, a bunch of people will believe him because they react out of fear. They will willingly give up their freedoms for the illusion of safety. Don't believe me? Go look at basically every human conflict in history.

When Cheney sits there and says we weren't attacked for 7.5 years because of what President Bush's administration did, I can't help but laugh. We put hundreds of thousands of Americans in these peoples' back yards, why would they come here? The number of terrorist attacks (according to the Bush State Dept) DRAMATICALLY increased over the past 8 years. Embassy bombings, kidnappings, murder, ect...all up dramatically. The audacity of this man to stand before us and tell us his actions kept us safe is just staggeringly ridiculous because there is absolutely no proof. Claiming there are memos is not proof. Even if there are memos, that is not proof, because it ignores the fact that there was probably another way to obtain the information.

However, I don't expect you to agree with me. We aren't allowed to admit we are wrong in this country because it makes you look weak. That is what really tells you something about where we are as a culture and as a people.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Fear No Evil,
The entire premise of your argument is flawed because you speak in absolutes. Presumably, if you tortured everyone, just by sheer luck you'd obtain information that would prevent a terrorist attack. The question isn't if it works, but if it is necessary. Based on the interrogators who have spoken in front of Congress, the very people we trust to find this information and prevent these attacks, "enhanced interrogation" only makes collecting information more difficult.

Cheney is conducting a classic bait and switch. The argument started as "we do not torture." It morphed into "water boarding isn't torture." Now it's "torturing saves lives." Each time has been a simple human attempt at rationalizing inexcusable behavior. It's caused by the guilt of know what you did was wrong, but not having the strength to admit it.

Here's a fact: We will be attacked again. It's inevitable. Torturing these people did not make you safe, continuing to torture them will not make you safer. There is in fact a great deal of evidence that these actions made us less safe, not only by serving as an Al-Qaeda recruiting tool, but by severely damaging our relationships with our allies, upon whom we depend upon to fight the war on terror. When we are attacked, and mark my words, we will be attacked, Cheney (and his ilk, if he isn't around) plans to turn around and scream that if we had "enhanced interrogations" we would not have been attacked. It's a completely ridiculous and false premise, but that is exactly where he is going. Sad thing is, a bunch of people will believe him because they react out of fear. They will willingly give up their freedoms for the illusion of safety. Don't believe me? Go look at basically every human conflict in history.

When Cheney sits there and says we weren't attacked for 7.5 years because of what President Bush's administration did, I can't help but laugh. We put hundreds of thousands of Americans in these peoples' back yards, why would they come here? The number of terrorist attacks (according to the Bush State Dept) DRAMATICALLY increased over the past 8 years. Embassy bombings, kidnappings, murder, ect...all up dramatically. The audacity of this man to stand before us and tell us his actions kept us safe is just staggeringly ridiculous because there is absolutely no proof. Claiming there are memos is not proof. Even if there are memos, that is not proof, because it ignores the fact that there was probably another way to obtain the information.

However, I don't expect you to agree with me. We aren't allowed to admit we are wrong in this country because it makes you look weak. That is what really tells you something about where we are as a culture and as a people.

Yes, we will be attacked again. Because Obama is weak on terror and won't do whats necessary to protect us. I know you won't admit you are wrong because it makes you look weak.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Fear No Evil,
The entire premise of your argument is flawed because you speak in absolutes. Presumably, if you tortured everyone, just by sheer luck you'd obtain information that would prevent a terrorist attack. The question isn't if it works, but if it is necessary. Based on the interrogators who have spoken in front of Congress, the very people we trust to find this information and prevent these attacks, "enhanced interrogation" only makes collecting information more difficult.

Cheney is conducting a classic bait and switch. The argument started as "we do not torture." It morphed into "water boarding isn't torture." Now it's "torturing saves lives." Each time has been a simple human attempt at rationalizing inexcusable behavior. It's caused by the guilt of know what you did was wrong, but not having the strength to admit it.

Here's a fact: We will be attacked again. It's inevitable. Torturing these people did not make you safe, continuing to torture them will not make you safer. There is in fact a great deal of evidence that these actions made us less safe, not only by serving as an Al-Qaeda recruiting tool, but by severely damaging our relationships with our allies, upon whom we depend upon to fight the war on terror. When we are attacked, and mark my words, we will be attacked, Cheney (and his ilk, if he isn't around) plans to turn around and scream that if we had "enhanced interrogations" we would not have been attacked. It's a completely ridiculous and false premise, but that is exactly where he is going. Sad thing is, a bunch of people will believe him because they react out of fear. They will willingly give up their freedoms for the illusion of safety. Don't believe me? Go look at basically every human conflict in history.

When Cheney sits there and says we weren't attacked for 7.5 years because of what President Bush's administration did, I can't help but laugh. We put hundreds of thousands of Americans in these peoples' back yards, why would they come here? The number of terrorist attacks (according to the Bush State Dept) DRAMATICALLY increased over the past 8 years. Embassy bombings, kidnappings, murder, ect...all up dramatically. The audacity of this man to stand before us and tell us his actions kept us safe is just staggeringly ridiculous because there is absolutely no proof. Claiming there are memos is not proof. Even if there are memos, that is not proof, because it ignores the fact that there was probably another way to obtain the information.

However, I don't expect you to agree with me. We aren't allowed to admit we are wrong in this country because it makes you look weak. That is what really tells you something about where we are as a culture and as a people.

Fear No Evil won't agree with you because he is weak.

I will agree with you. That was a good post.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Yes, we will be attacked again. Because Obama is weak on terror and won't do whats necessary to protect us. I know you won't admit you are wrong because it makes you look weak.

More evidence that you are a total idiot that doesn't know what he is talking about.

I guess by your thinking, Clinton kept us safe, since after the 1993 bombing of the WTC, no attacks happened until 2001. Which by your reasoning, makes it all Bush's fault he didn't keep us safe. I guess Bush "didn't do what necessary" to prevent 9/11, huh?

Go read a book about logic. Learn and understand the phrase "correlation doesn't equal causation". Educate yourself.

We will get attacked sooner or later, that much is certain. Whether it's in 1, 2, 10, or 50 years, it will happen. Nothing anyone can do. And when it happens, it isn't proof that soemone is "weak on terror".

 

[jonks]

Well we could listen to someone who knows what they're talking about, but why bother?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfYov5o5_2s

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Its not up to me, your Messiah in Chief holds all the cards on that. And him and his cabal of traitors and murders have decided not to release it. The next best thing is the former VP of the United States who says it did work. Since YOU made the claim that it didn't save one live. PROVE it or you are a sub-human LIAR and a COWARD.

No, YOU assert that torture DID work. So does your lying, ethically challenged piece of shit EX-Vice Traitor In Chief, and neither of you can produce a shred of evidence to support that claim. Furthermore, it doesn't matter because TORTURE IS ILLEGAL under U.S. and International laws. TORTURE is a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

I've said it before. I'll say it again. We will never defeat evil by becoming the evil we claim we seek to defeat. Only an ethically challenged, morally bankrupt piece of shit would believe otherwise. Obviously, you have already lost that battle, but since you want more, you can thank jonks for his post:

Originally posted by: jonks

Well we could listen to someone who knows what they're talking about, but why bother?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfYov5o5_2s

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Since you are so quick to label me a sub-human I can only assume that you would not grant me the same basic human rights that you grant to terrorists.

BUAHAHAhahahaha!!!! :laugh:

REAL Americans support the values embedded within our Declaration of Independence, our U.S. Constitution and our rule of law, values Americans have fought to preserve, protect and defend for over two hundred years. Only a depraved, immoral, sub-human piece of shit who supports and condones torture and the perverts who committed such crimes would assume that REAL Americans would violate our laws and our values simply because YOU would.

YOU are an embarrassment to the United States of America and to humanity. :thumbsdown: :|