"Congressman Paul is wrong." - John McCain

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: bamacre
Radical Islam is exactly what Saddam wanted to keep OUT of Iraq.

Which, even if it were true (and that's debatable), doesn't change the facts as they stand now.

Conventional wisdom would suggest that Saddam wanted Radical Islam kept under wraps, as it could be a threat to his secular rule. But Conventional wisdom doesn't always hold up.

We've got to open our eyes and face the reality as it stands now.

What, that 'radical islam' is some major threat to civilization?

What % of war dead in the past century were killed by 'radical islam'? I seem to recall 100+ million being killed in WW1, WW2, etc, but not much to do with islam. Hmm. strange.

 

[Lemon law]

As Pabster says----We've got to open our eyes and face the reality as it stands now.

Actually its good generic advice that Pabster should take. But given your quite obvious biases, I for one seriously doubt that what you are seeing is anything but what you want to see. And that reality gets ignored by Pabster in the process. As you blind yourself to any and all alternative viewpoints.

As far as I can see, you Pabster want to see a radical Islamic boogie man, while you ignore the fact that Christian are going on their home turf and imposing foreign values on them with our military might. Get a clue, open your eyes, see reality, and realize we are also a good part of the cause.

 

[Legend]

McCain is full of it. His indirect comparison of Iraq to Nazi Germany in that debate is downright embarassing. He probably doesn't believe in half the nonsense he has been spewing the last few years. He's incredibly monotone/boring compared to how he spoke earlier this decade when he was more of a moderate.

CNN gave Ron Paul a chance to give a full reply on Blitzer:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nA8X6FhTNQQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wD3HhMl12mg

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Lemon law
That is where you and I disagree Pabster. Radical Christianity and Radical Islam are not really on the rise, what is on the rise is increasing political polarization both domestically and internationally. When moderates are driven out of the political process, its the radical right conservatives vs. the terrorists with each willing to use violence as a means of advancing their agenda. Driving out the moderates who seek to use non violent tactics of compromise that can foster the social stability that extremists on either side can never deliver.

No, of course not. Just keep putting your head under the blanket and thinking you're safe from the boogeyman. :roll:

So you admit that terrorism is like the boogeyman, i.e. a figment of your imagination.

3000 people died in the US due to Islamic terrorism. That's over the past 6 years, even more years if you care to go back further. So that's at most 500 deaths per year due to Islamic terrorism. More people die drowning in their bathtub every year. Why haven't you called for a trillion dollar war on fiberglass?

Yep, Ron Paul is the kook Pabster, not you. :roll:

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Legend
McCain is full of it. His indirect comparison of Iraq to Nazi Germany in that debate is downright embarassing. He probably doesn't believe in half the nonsense he has been spewing the last few years. He's incredibly monotone/boring compared to how he spoke earlier this decade when he was more of a moderate.

CNN gave Ron Paul a chance to give a full reply on Blitzer:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nA8X6FhTNQQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wD3HhMl12mg

Thanks for posting. I hadn't seen that in its entirety.

 

[Lemon law]

I somewhat beg to differ on the McCain being totally out of it. At least he gets it on torture, campaign finance reform, and shows some ability to work on a bi-partisan basis. Nor can I forget that he was one of the Republican Senators willing to stand up opposed to attempts to abolish the Senate Filibuster. I may not agree with many of his views, but he is one guy I might enjoy sitting down and having a beer with. In many ways campaign 08 will force many candidates to pander to positions they don't totally believe in. But McCain has a certain underlying sense of fair play I find totally lacking in many other political candidates.

And McCain can think for himself and also to listen to the other Person. Like I say, I seldom agree with him, but I have some respect for McCain.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Pabster
eskimospy, come on. You're being intellectually dishonest to a surprising low, even for you.

The Vietnamese did not have the capability of killing us here.

And the Iraqi's did?

Let's see what Bill Clinton had to say about this:
Time Magazine June 2004

On whether Bush was right to invade Iraq

You know, I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over. I don't believe he went in there for oil. We didn't go in there for imperialist or financial reasons. We went in there because he bought the Wolfowitz-Cheney analysis that the Iraqis would be better off, we could shake up the authoritarian Arab regimes in the Middle East, and our leverage to make peace between the Palestinians and Israelis would be increased.

At the moment the U.N. inspectors were kicked out in '98, this is the proper language: there were substantial quantities of botulinum and aflatoxin, as I recall, some bioagents, I believe there were those, and VX and ricin, chemical agents, unaccounted for. Keep in mind, that's all we ever had to work on. We also thought there were a few missiles, some warheads, and maybe a very limited amount of nuclear laboratory capacity.

After 9/11, let's be fair here, if you had been President, you'd think, Well, this fellow bin Laden just turned these three airplanes full of fuel into weapons of mass destruction, right? Arguably they were super-powerful chemical weapons. Think about it that way. So, you're sitting there as President, you're reeling in the aftermath of this, so, yeah, you want to go get bin Laden and do Afghanistan and all that. But you also have to say, Well, my first responsibility now is to try everything possible to make sure that this terrorist network and other terrorist networks cannot reach chemical and biological weapons or small amounts of fissile material. I've got to do that.

That's why I supported the Iraq thing. There was a lot of stuff unaccounted for. So I thought the President had an absolute responsibility to go to the U.N. and say, "Look, guys, after 9/11, you have got to demand that Saddam Hussein lets us finish the inspection process." You couldn't responsibly ignore [the possibility that] a tyrant had these stocks. I never really thought he'd [use them]. What I was far more worried about was that he'd sell this stuff or give it away. Same thing I've always been worried about North Korea's nuclear and missile capacity. I don't expect North Korea to bomb South Korea, because they know it would be the end of their country. But if you can't feed yourself, the temptation to sell this stuff is overwhelming. So that's why I thought Bush did the right thing to go back. When you're the President, and your country has just been through what we had, you want everything to be accounted for.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Let's see what Bill Clinton had to say about this:

Why should anyone give a shit what Clinton had to say? He's a proven liar, too.

 

[Vic]

We are in Iraq so that military personnel can get bonus pay, and so that Lockheed Martin, Boeing, et al can sell bombs and planes to the military. No other reason. Oil, imperialism, freedom, and "protect America" are all bullshit.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: bamacre
And the Iraqi's did?

We sure thought so, and I think there was no question Saddam was working towards that ends.

Oh please. Saddam couldn't even shoot a plane down over the no-fly zone. Saddam was absolutely no threat to the USA.

Oh please dude grow up and read what Pabster saod before spouting off....
Pabster didn`t say Saddam had the capability.....show me where Pabster said that?

Pabster was 100% correct in saying that Saddam was working towards that end...

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: Pabster
eskimospy, come on. You're being intellectually dishonest to a surprising low, even for you.

The Vietnamese did not have the capability of killing us here.

Pabster, you are either ignorant or being deliberately deceptive. The argument eskimospy cited was used repeatably to justify the Vietnam war.

And now McCain is citing the same argument. The special problem and where it differs from Vietnam lies in the new boogie man of international terrorism. The problem we have now is
that we are creating more terrorists than we are killing. And the McCain fallacy lies in the fact
that the longer we fight them over there, the more will follow us home.

So McCain is dead wrong, the sooner we get out and quit creating terrorist by angering and polarizing other countries, the safer we will be.

Terrorist recruiting offices world wide are doing gangbuster business, just hang the portrait of GWB on the wall, and they flock in to enlist. At the same time, the wealthy in many countries just donate to help fund terrorist activities and munitions.

Hey lemon......same goes for you my friend......

 

[Capitalizt]

I wouldn't be surprised if historians one day write how Bush and the neocon republicans were single-handedly responsible for a 50 fold increase in the number of radical muslims worldwide. Terrorists don't have a different DNA gene sequence that makes them who they are. They aren't BORN with the desire to suicide bomb Americans.. It is our behavior that has created these people...and it is our current policy that is making their numbers soar to record levels.

 

[cirrrocco]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Legend
McCain is full of it. His indirect comparison of Iraq to Nazi Germany in that debate is downright embarassing. He probably doesn't believe in half the nonsense he has been spewing the last few years. He's incredibly monotone/boring compared to how he spoke earlier this decade when he was more of a moderate.

CNN gave Ron Paul a chance to give a full reply on Blitzer:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nA8X6FhTNQQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wD3HhMl12mg

Thanks for posting. I hadn't seen that in its entirety.

Nice!!!!

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic
We are in Iraq so that military personnel can get bonus pay, and so that Lockheed Martin, Boeing, et al can sell bombs and planes to the military. No other reason. Oil, imperialism, freedom, and "protect America" are all bullshit.

This kind of reminds me of telling people they hate themselves. Even if it is true, it passes totally undigested or even seriously contemplated because the implications are far far too disturbing to be taken in. I'm going to go back to sleep now and pretend I never saw this.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
I wouldn't be surprised if historians one day write how Bush and the neocon republicans were single-handedly responsible for a 50 fold increase in the number of radical muslims worldwide. Terrorists don't have a different DNA gene sequence that makes them who they are. They aren't BORN with the desire to suicide bomb Americans.. It is our behavior that has created these people...and it is our current policy that is making their numbers soar to record levels.

Wrong, as usual.

They aren't BORN that way, they are TAUGHT. And so long as they keep indoctrinating each generation, it will continue.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Lemon law
That is where you and I disagree Pabster. Radical Christianity and Radical Islam are not really on the rise, what is on the rise is increasing political polarization both domestically and internationally. When moderates are driven out of the political process, its the radical right conservatives vs. the terrorists with each willing to use violence as a means of advancing their agenda. Driving out the moderates who seek to use non violent tactics of compromise that can foster the social stability that extremists on either side can never deliver.

No, of course not. Just keep putting your head under the blanket and thinking you're safe from the boogeyman. :roll:

So you admit that terrorism is like the boogeyman, i.e. a figment of your imagination.

3000 people died in the US due to Islamic terrorism. That's over the past 6 years, even more years if you care to go back further. So that's at most 500 deaths per year due to Islamic terrorism. More people die drowning in their bathtub every year. Why haven't you called for a trillion dollar war on fiberglass?

Yep, Ron Paul is the kook Pabster, not you. :roll:

The early bird gets the worm. I can only hope he snapped in half when you pulled him out of his hole. Too many bogeymen and we forget what a real threat might look like.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
So you admit that terrorism is like the boogeyman, i.e. a figment of your imagination.

No, I'm saying that far left-wing nutjobs fail to see the threat. They consider terrorists in exactly such a simpleton mindset. In their world, simply pulling the comforter over their heads allows the threat to disappear.

3000 people died in the US due to Islamic terrorism. That's over the past 6 years, even more years if you care to go back further. So that's at most 500 deaths per year due to Islamic terrorism. More people die drowning in their bathtub every year. Why haven't you called for a trillion dollar war on fiberglass?

Ah, the timeless argument. "But look, more people die in auto accidents!"

What a silly, invalid analogy. And you know better.

Yep, Ron Paul is the kook Pabster, not you. :roll:

Yes, he is.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
I wouldn't be surprised if historians one day write how Bush and the neocon republicans were single-handedly responsible for a 50 fold increase in the number of radical muslims worldwide. Terrorists don't have a different DNA gene sequence that makes them who they are. They aren't BORN with the desire to suicide bomb Americans.. It is our behavior that has created these people...and it is our current policy that is making their numbers soar to record levels.

Wrong, as usual.

They aren't BORN that way, they are TAUGHT. And so long as they keep indoctrinating each generation, it will continue.

Why is it so easy to indoctrinate them against us?

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Why is it so easy to indoctrinate them against us?

The same way it is so easy for teachers, professors, et al. here to indoctrinate students with left-wing propaganda...

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Why is it so easy to indoctrinate them against us?

The same way it is so easy for teachers, professors, et al. here to indoctrinate students with left-wing propaganda...

And that is?

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
And that is?

Young, fertile minds are ripe for corruption.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
And that is?

Young, fertile minds are ripe for corruption.

I have to partially agree with you on that but do we have to make it so easy for them by validating some of their claims by our intrusive interventionist actions like invading and occupying Iraq?

 

[bamacre]

I think what Red Dawn is hinting at is the fact that their indoctrination is stronger and easier because we give them so much ammo to use. Mixed with their emotional hatred for us, they also get to add in many facts and truths.

Your enemy will always use your sins against you. And with 170,000 troops in Iraq, bases in Saudi Arabia, etc., we don't come out looking like angels. We sure as hell don't look like the victims, either.

The best way of countering terrorism is to stop giving them ammo, stop giving them reasons. If we do this, we greatly limit their recruitment, and we greatly limit thier ability to attack us.

"We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline." - MLK Jr.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: BoberFett
So you admit that terrorism is like the boogeyman, i.e. a figment of your imagination.

No, I'm saying that far left-wing nutjobs fail to see the threat. They consider terrorists in exactly such a simpleton mindset. In their world, simply pulling the comforter over their heads allows the threat to disappear.

You know, lately I've read some of your posts and thought that you are actually trying to debate reasonably and with logic. Then you come back to something like this.

I actually get the mental image of you sitting in an office with a couple other people and I can see you turn to one of them and say

"Hand me that memo over there, will ya? Not that one. The one titled "Talking Points."

Liberals, leftists, centrists and rationally thinking logical people see the real threat posed by terrorism. However, in assessing that threat, they come to the conclusion that it is not a threat that is worth over a trillion dollars, an additional 4,000+ American deaths (guesstimating total by the time we leave Iraq) and the good name and image of this country.

You claim that "far left-wing nutjobs" are wanting to confront the threat of terrorism by hiding under a blanket and hoping it goes away without even considering that your position is one of hiding under the bed and hoping that "daddy government" will come and turn the lights on and save you. Neither mindset is ever going to solve the problem.

As I see it, there are two possible solutions. The first is to use the military to squash the threat. We have seen that that doesn't really work too well and has cost us more than we could have imagined. The second would be to neutralize the threat via taking away their motivation to attack us.

The people that are left of neo-conservatives all see that the first option failed miserably and are looking to try the second option before it is too late. That is the message of Ron Paul and 66% of the country.

For the record, the car accident analogy is not a good one because there are too many variables. A more accurate one would be getting struck by lightening. It is something random that is constantly a threat but if proper measures are taken to mitigate the risk of getting struck (staying out of the rain (or the ME), not seeking shelter under a lone tree (protecting Israeli interests over all others no matter what)), you will probably never be affected by it.

 

[Capitalizt]

Guys, this religious stuff is a scapegoat. Islamic fundamentalism is only a small small reason for their dislike of america. The vast majority of their hatred is the result of our ACTIONS towards them in the middle east. Our foreign policy has stirred up this hatred. We took advantage them when it suited us (against the Russians)...armed them, trained them, then abandoned them with a mess of a country when the Russians left and basically said "FU" to Bin Laden and his followers who had helped us..

Then we fund Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran (so he could kill a bunch of Iranians), while simultaneously trading arms with Iran (so they could kill a bunch of Iraqis). Muslim against muslim...murdering each other with American weapons. They'd probably be pissed if they ever found out eh? Oops.

The reality is that the USA has been smacking this bee hive around with a baseball bat for the past 60 years, having a good old time...overthrowing governments we don't like and replacing them with governments we do like. Bombing them constantly...killing hundreds of thousand of civilians (not an exaggeration). Our BEHAVIOR has created thousands of new terrorists. And they aren't all dumb religious nutballs. These people have real reasons behind what the are doing. They aren't willing suicide bomb us because their daughters are listening to Britney Spears.. That would be a tough selling point for any terror recruiter. Much easier to point over the hill at the occupying army...and the thousands of your fellow countrymen who were killed during the invasion..

"Corrupt American culture" might be a footnote in the terror recruit manual, but the real selling point is the constant US meddling and oppression of people in the middle east.