Confirmed: US Gov officials bracing for S&P downgrade as soon as today.

[0roo0roo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-UN1U677mM
Neil deGrasse Tyson on Real Time With Bill Maher

 

[sandorski]

Whatever his assumptions he was wrong.

If you want a Prophet, get Religion or consult a Fortune Teller.

 

[sandorski]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-UN1U677mM
Neil deGrasse Tyson on Real Time With Bill Maher

Lot of wisdom in that. :thumbsup:

 

[0roo0roo]

Lot of wisdom in that. :thumbsup:

yea it was a rare maher show that didn't suck.

 

[Bitek]

BS.

If the Democrat had gotten what they wanted we still would have had a reduction.

S&P wanted $4 trillion in debt reduction and the Democrats wanted a 'clean bill.'

The only reason we got to $2 trillion is due to the Tea Party fighting tooth and nail for it.

Not true at all. The "Grand Bargain" Obama pushed till the end was $4T, Go6 was $4T, and the Biden-Cantor talks had identified "trillions" in cuts by Cantor's own admission before he pulled a Palin. Even the Bowles-Simpson had $4T (which the TP hardly latched onto either, GOP didn't even want to do. b/c they knew it meant taxes..but I'm sure you'll be quick to just blame Obama)

They are all basically versions of the same core plan. The only reason we got a measly $2T in cuts only and a downgrade was due to TP fuckheads not being able to take the win because of their holy jihad on taxes.

I wouldn't be surprised if this commission comes out with something that ends up being pretty much like bigger plans suggested after all this needless bullshit and the pols unable to take a vote they don't like.

 

[Zebo]

It's insane that people are pinning this on the Republicans when Obama's position was that he wanted a clean debt ceiling increase with no cuts or tax increases.

There is not one politician from either political party who will tell the truth that we can't spend $2 for every $1 that comes in. Not one. Not only would it crash GDP by 12-13% immediately since 2 trillion is pumped into economy every year via borrowing it would castrate a lot of programs and Americans couldn't handle it. I blame us tbh.

Oh and for y'all blaming politics and parties the S&P was pretty explicit: "The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's medium-term debt dynamics."

i.e. not enough taxes not enough cut to get close to balance. Nothing to do with threats or personalities, just mathematics..It's just business.

Obviously I think it will get worse. We have yet to come to terms with rebuilding our labor force (who pays taxes instead of consumes them for voting for more goodies). This means wage and environmental parity tariffs with economic slave-holders (china). Won't happen. Apple and companies like them likes it's several hundred dollar stock price and gives lots of money to keep it that way.

Have yet to come to terms with illegal immigration.
Have yet to come to terms giving billions to pharma and other medical costs 3-5x what other nations pay.
Have yet to come to terms with paying people to go to school who don't understand exponents including our leading economists let alone tens of millions in majors for jobs not there upon graduation.

and so on making this problem insurmountable until we are forced to confront reality. High intrest rates will do it probably when interest consumes 100% of receipts. And so it's beginning, S&P has set us on the path to that.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

There is not one politician from either political party who will tell the truth that we can't spend $2 for every $1 that comes in. Not one. Not only would it crash GDP by 12-13% immediately since 2 trillion is pumped into economy every year via borrowing it would castrate a lot of programs and Americans couldn't handle it. I blame us tbh.

Oh and for y'all blaming politics and parties the S&P was pretty explicit: "The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's medium-term debt dynamics."

i.e. not enough taxes not enough cut to get close to balance. Nothing to do with threats or personalities, just mathematics..

I don't disagree that there is plenty of blame to go around. But if you are going to try and pin it on one side only the Dems are the far more obvious choice given their stated positions.

To Bitek - I would have preferred the grand bargain and said so on here, but I don't think Obama could have gotten it through the Senate. If you believe the Republicans Obama started trying to renegotiate the deal in the middle after the gang of 6 deal came out, which is bad form IMO.

My personal stance is that I would support some tax increases, but only if we completely fix the tax code. I oppose any increase to the marginal rates which are already insanely high.

 

[Zebo]

I just remembered these are the same jokers that gave MBS's a AAA, makes you wonder how bad a downgrade to AA+ really is.

 

[Zebo]

I don't disagree that there is plenty of blame to go around. But if you are going to try and pin it on one side only the Dems are the far more obvious choice given their stated positions.

To Bitek - I would have preferred the grand bargain and said so on here, but I don't think Obama could have gotten it through the Senate. If you believe the Republicans Obama started trying to renegotiate the deal in the middle after the gang of 6 deal came out, which is bad form IMO.

My personal stance is that I would support some tax increases, but only if we completely fix the tax code. I oppose any increase to the marginal rates which are already insanely high.

Compared to when? marginal rates are lowest in post WW2 history.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Have yet to come to terms with illegal immigration.
Have yet to come to terms giving billions to pharma and other medical costs 3-5x what other nations pay.
Have yet to come to terms with paying people to go to school who don't understand exponents including our leading economists let alone tens of millions in majors for jobs not there upon graduation.

and so on making this problem insurmountable until we are forced to confront reality. High intrest rates will do it probably when interest consumes 100% of receipts. And so it's beginning, S&P has set us on the path to that.

The bottom line is that our politicians are cowards who look out for themselves and want to ensure they keep their jobs. They have no (none, nada, zilch) incentive to make the tough decisions because doing so would cost them the next election. And every single one of them, regardless of party, knows what needs to be done but instead, they set their sights on the "other team's" pet projects instead of compromising.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Compared to when? marginal rates are lowest in post WW2 history.

Compared to now. There is no reason to have the top rate over the low 30s. We can easily get tax revenues back up to their historical average and reduce the marginal rates at the same time by raising the capital gains and getting rid of most deductions.

 

[Doppel]

No question that assuming that Republicans will act in a responsible way is wrong. But those same Republicans have no business calling for him to resign over the mess that they themselves created.

lol you really are shameless

If you want a Prophet, get Religion or consult a Fortune Teller.

You, too.

This isn't tricky stuff. Many people thought there would be a downgrade. It doesn't require a "prophet". Get grounded, and clean that brown stuff off your noses for some perspective, seriously.

I just remembered these are the same jokers that gave MBS's a AAA, makes you wonder how bad a downgrade to AA+ really is.

In truth I wonder, too. Yields can vary wildly despite no credit rating changes. I wonder how much a lot of bond purchasers even care about what these ratings agencies say.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Tel Aviv market is down 7%. It looks like tomorrow is gonna be ugly.

 

[Engineer]

Tel Aviv market is down 7%. It looks like tomorrow is gonna be ugly.

The Tel Aviv market runs from Sunday through Thursday. It had not digested the huge US/World drops from last Thursday/Friday that happened after it had closed for the weekend (strange days of trading to say the least). So, while the downgrade may have some effect on that market, there are other factors that are playing into its sharp decline.

 

[Doppel]

I didn't even know tel aviv had a market 😉 Asia opens tonight but we don't always follow lock-step.

 

[nergee]

Tel Aviv market is down 7%. It looks like tomorrow is gonna be ugly.

Dubai Shares Drop Most Since February...

 

[Jhhnn]

My personal stance is that I would support some tax increases, but only if we completely fix the tax code. I oppose any increase to the marginal rates which are already insanely high.

So, uhh, you want a pony with that? Might as well, seeing as how it's outside the realm of honest possibilities.

Compared to when? marginal rates are lowest in post WW2 history.

True.

Compared to now. There is no reason to have the top rate over the low 30s. We can easily get tax revenues back up to their historical average and reduce the marginal rates at the same time by raising the capital gains and getting rid of most deductions.

Why?? America's wealthiest families have reaped enormous benefits from Repub tax policy implemented over the last 30 years. They've taken in more than their rightful share, so it's only fitting that they should contribute more in time of need. Just tax capital gains the same as income, start from there. America's wealthiest had no serious economic hardships paying pre-Reagan taxes, and I doubt they'd have any trouble today, seeing as how the top 1% share of income has more than doubled since 1980... that the top .1% share of income is greater than that of the top 1% at that time...

Not to mention that the wealthy have built on the pioneering efforts of Meyer Lansky in creating & exploiting offshore tax shelters as never before.

 

[Bitek]

I don't disagree that there is plenty of blame to go around. But if you are going to try and pin it on one side only the Dems are the far more obvious choice given their stated positions.

To Bitek - I would have preferred the grand bargain and said so on here, but I don't think Obama could have gotten it through the Senate. If you believe the Republicans Obama started trying to renegotiate the deal in the middle after the gang of 6 deal came out, which is bad form IMO.

My personal stance is that I would support some tax increases, but only if we completely fix the tax code. I oppose any increase to the marginal rates which are already insanely high.

I think there is more than enough blame to spread around. Everyone has acted poorly and more towards their own self-interest than that of the country. There are legitimate debates to what that is, but there doesn't even seem to way to even have that debate in a productive and respectful manner. Who knows, the Senate may surprise us, but only after a long string of failures.


I would agree that Obama is a horrible negotiator and has a terrible track record of pushing his policies thru. He had an easy first 6-8 mos when he had super majorities and fresh off the big election (no shock there,) but even his own HC bill was a mess of infighting and delay, and its been steadily downhill from there.

A decent negotiator could have got it thru. A good negotiator would have never let it go that far. Obama managed to get ~none of what he wanted, but praised the deal and setting himself up to take all the ownership. IDK

 

[Nemesis 1]

The very first thing we can do to recover is force a national vote a the question of 3 seperate branches in the government . NO attornies in the house or senate or President . They have to stay in judical . The SC wouldn't act on what is constitionly legeal . Because they be lawyers also . So demand a national vote and get these asses out of the other 2 bodies of the government . Lawyers are tainted goods . Evil people . The last people on earth we want creating law is the people who profit from law,

Next make OB doby keep his promise on lobbist . or add that to the national vote . If we can't force this issue grab your guns because your going to need them . On the national vote thing forget it , Its to late grab your guns . I will tel ya now stock up on food supplies that store . No refrigeration , Start now . Figure 18 month supply . don't wait till the end of the month . When you see Why . Nasa Nasa nasa . Elinin is huge . Its no joke boys its confirmed buy now or die latter . I mean huge is it size . Google for your livies

 

[Jhhnn]

The very first thing we can do to recover is force a national vote a the question of 3 seperate branches in the government . NO attornies in the house or senate or President . They have to stay in judical . The SC wouldn't act on what is constitionly legeal . Because they be lawyers also . So demand a national vote and get these asses out of the other 2 bodies of the government . Lawyers are tainted goods . Evil people . The last people on earth we want creating law is the people who profit from law,

Next make OB doby keep his promise on lobbist . or add that to the national vote . If we can't force this issue grab your guns because your going to need them . On the national vote thing forget it , Its to late grab your guns . I will tel ya now stock up on food supplies that store . No refrigeration , Start now . Figure 18 month supply . don't wait till the end of the month . When you see Why . Nasa Nasa nasa . Elinin is huge . Its no joke boys its confirmed buy now or die latter . I mean huge is it size . Google for your livies

You bin dropped on yer haid or sumpthin', boy? Sure seems that way...

 

[Darwin333]

Which is what the head of S&P ratings agency pointed out in a very recent interview-



http://www.cnn.com/2011/BUSINESS/08/05/global.economy.cnn/

In other words, the contrived crisis Republicans created is a big part of the reason for the downgrade. S&P sees lunatics with too much power in Washington.

If anybody has any doubt as to who brought this fracas to a head, llisten to Mitch McConnell-



http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...washington/2011/08/02/gIQARSFfqI_story_1.html

Republicans will, of course, Blame Obama!

It is rather amusing that you not only cherry pick data to post but you also miss the overall point.

 

[Darwin333]

No question that assuming that Republicans will act in a responsible way is wrong. But those same Republicans have no business calling for him to resign over the mess that they themselves created.

Fail. I have explained it many times and you continue to stick your fingers in your ears and scream la la la la la so I won't bother again. The Reps definitely share the blame but to call it a mess they themselves created is laughable.

 

[Darwin333]

Not true at all. The "Grand Bargain" Obama pushed till the end was $4T, Go6 was $4T, and the Biden-Cantor talks had identified "trillions" in cuts by Cantor's own admission before he pulled a Palin. Even the Bowles-Simpson had $4T (which the TP hardly latched onto either, GOP didn't even want to do. b/c they knew it meant taxes..but I'm sure you'll be quick to just blame Obama)

They are all basically versions of the same core plan. The only reason we got a measly $2T in cuts only and a downgrade was due to TP fuckheads not being able to take the win because of their holy jihad on taxes.

I wouldn't be surprised if this commission comes out with something that ends up being pretty much like bigger plans suggested after all this needless bullshit and the pols unable to take a vote they don't like.

Every plan that I looked into that claimed to cut $4T was complete and utter bullshit smoke and mirrors. I would love to be proven wrong but even the Repubs plan was proven to be smoke and mirrors bullshit by the CBO.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

There is not one politician from either political party who will tell the truth that we can't spend $2 for every $1 that comes in. ...snip

The bottom line is that our politicians are cowards who look out for themselves and want to ensure they keep their jobs. ...snip

Zebo/ICF '12. I'd vote for you two in a heartbeat. Hell I don't even care if you don't have a plan. Stating the problems is more than any politician has managed to do!

 

[Darwin333]

I don't disagree that there is plenty of blame to go around. But if you are going to try and pin it on one side only the Dems are the far more obvious choice given their stated positions.

Who cares about their "stated positions"? How about we judge them by what they actually do for a change and completely ignore what they say since 95% of what they say is bullshit.

On to what they actually do, why exactly are the Dems the obvious choice to pin this all on again?

To Bitek - I would have preferred the grand bargain and said so on here, but I don't think Obama could have gotten it through the Senate.

What did you prefer about it?

My personal stance is that I would support some tax increases, but only if we completely fix the tax code. I oppose any increase to the marginal rates which are already insanely high.

The politicians do not ever like giving up power. The tax code is one of, if not THE, largest "powers" they have to manipulate people into doing or not doing certain activities. They simply will not give that power up.

Now that we understand that, you still do not wish to see our budget balanced and instead prefer that we continue on our current path of more downgrades, higher interest, and an economy that goes over the cliff?

It doesn't matter if you like the choices or not, you are still stuck with them.


PS I agree with a vastly simplified tax code as well. I shouldn't have to pay some asshole to figure out how much money I owe an entity and then pray like hell he didn't fuck up because that entity has the power to FUBAR me. As I said earlier though, doesn't matter if I like it or not because it simply is not going to change. It removes a metric crapton of power our politicians currently wield and they simply aren't going to vote remove that power.