Compound Exercises on Machines

[neodyn55]

I've read many of the posts on this forum, and the emphasis - whether for building muscle or losing fat - is towards compound exercises using free weights. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering if there are any machines that can be used to cause compound motion? The main reason for my asking is that machines are very easily used by beginners, whereas, many of the free weight exercises appear to require spotters to have proper form and posture.

For example, these are my major exercises at the gym:

Lat pull down (back)

http://www.myfit.ca/exerciseda...n&table=exercises&ID=6

Machine Bench Press

http://www.myfit.ca/exerciseda...table=exercises&ID=102

Machine Leg Press

http://www.myfit.ca/exerciseda...&table=exercises&ID=10

How effective are these exercises as compared to their free weight equivalents?

In light of the suggestions I've read in these forums, I'm planning to include at least 2 squat-like exercises in conjunction with these, so that the overall risk of incorrect posture is reduced. Comments?

 

[KoolDrew]

Free weights will work stabilizer muscles, machines won't. Unless you have an injury or something preventing you to perform free weight movements, free weights should be used. If you don't have a spotter, perform the movements in a power cage and set the pins to the right height.

Lat pulldowns in place of chins is fine though if you can't do chins, since it's not a fixed motion like the leg press or chest press (where you can only move the weight forward or back)

 

[gramboh]

Honestly it is a HUGE difference using freeweight (barbell) for compound movements over machines, it's not even close. Machines balance the weight for you, while free weights your stablizer muscles have to do the work. If you are worried about form, practice with just the bar or even hire a personal trainer to teach you the correct form (check with another source to make sure they aren't teaching you BS, e.g. make sure it isn't a trainer that thinks squatting deep is automatically bad).

Lat pull down: Do pull-ups instead, they are easy to learn, don't worry if you can't complete a single rep on your first try, the easiest way is to use assistance bands (you loop it over the pull-up bar and put one knee in). A few months ago I couldn't do a single pull-up properly (used the "I'm too heavy" excuse to rationalize). Yesterday I did 3 sets, 5, 4 and 3 with strict form.

Machine bench press: You are not balancing the weight and the weight moves in a set path, can be bad for your shoulders and bad for overall strength development. Learn the benchpress with just the bar using strict form (tons of info on the net, stronglifts.com is what I recommend). Ask random people in the gym to spot you, this is weird at first (at least for me) but it makes a big difference since you are more confident lifting with a spotter.

Leg press: I used to do this a lot because it felt good to put a ton of plates on and move them up and down. After doing research I discovered that squatting is far and away the most important/useful exercise in leg (and total body) strength. Learn to squat properly with the barbell and you will make big gains, and it feels good too.

The biggest thing to think about is that you will get used to doing these exercises and see the benefits of them and then wonder why you weren't doing them that way before. It doesn't take long to get comfortable with them in the gym, I know it was hard for me at first, trying to learn new exercises and being worried about looking dumb, but no one cares, they should be happy to see more people trying it out.

Overall recommendation: You seem interested in strength training, buy "Starting Strength Volume 2" by Mark Rippetoe from amazon.com. It has hundreds of pages of extremely detailed (yet easy to understand) descriptions of all the major compound exercises and WHY you should do them properly. Stronglifts.com has a ton of great info/videos as well. I am still a novice in this game, but I have been learning a lot through those resources and forums like this. Good luck!

 

[neodyn55]

Originally posted by: gramboh
Honestly it is a HUGE difference using freeweight (barbell) for compound movements over machines, it's not even close. Machines balance the weight for you, while free weights your stablizer muscles have to do the work. If you are worried about form, practice with just the bar or even hire a personal trainer to teach you the correct form (check with another source to make sure they aren't teaching you BS, e.g. make sure it isn't a trainer that thinks squatting deep is automatically bad).

Lat pull down: Do pull-ups instead, they are easy to learn, don't worry if you can't complete a single rep on your first try, the easiest way is to use assistance bands (you loop it over the pull-up bar and put one knee in). A few months ago I couldn't do a single pull-up properly (used the "I'm too heavy" excuse to rationalize). Yesterday I did 3 sets, 5, 4 and 3 with strict form.

Machine bench press: You are not balancing the weight and the weight moves in a set path, can be bad for your shoulders and bad for overall strength development. Learn the benchpress with just the bar using strict form (tons of info on the net, stronglifts.com is what I recommend). Ask random people in the gym to spot you, this is weird at first (at least for me) but it makes a big difference since you are more confident lifting with a spotter.

Leg press: I used to do this a lot because it felt good to put a ton of plates on and move them up and down. After doing research I discovered that squatting is far and away the most important/useful exercise in leg (and total body) strength. Learn to squat properly with the barbell and you will make big gains, and it feels good too.

The biggest thing to think about is that you will get used to doing these exercises and see the benefits of them and then wonder why you weren't doing them that way before. It doesn't take long to get comfortable with them in the gym, I know it was hard for me at first, trying to learn new exercises and being worried about looking dumb, but no one cares, they should be happy to see more people trying it out.

Overall recommendation: You seem interested in strength training, buy "Starting Strength Volume 2" by Mark Rippetoe from amazon.com. It has hundreds of pages of extremely detailed (yet easy to understand) descriptions of all the major compound exercises and WHY you should do them properly. Stronglifts.com has a ton of great info/videos as well. I am still a novice in this game, but I have been learning a lot through those resources and forums like this. Good luck!

Exactly the information I was looking for! Thanks so much.

 

[paulxcook]

I don't have much to add, kooldrew and gramboh pretty much covered it, so I'll just post for the sake of peer pressure. I will say that free weight movements won't get any easier after you've done machines for a year. If anything it could be more difficult because you will have gotten stronger in your "primary" muscles but not the supporting ones, so you will feel like you can do more weight than your stabilizers can handle. This could lead to frustration at best and injury at worst.

 

[TallBill]

But you can still make strength gains on machines. If you happen to like a particular one, perhaps phase it in or out of your routines. I can do weighted pullups, but a good hammer grip lat pulldown will work me as well. Every once in a while instead of squatting I'll do a machine leg press or machine hack squat.

Edit - Just for clarification I much prefer and recommend free weights whenever possible.

 

[brikis98]

one more vote in favor of free weights:

1. You need to realize that the motion in a machine is NOT the same as with free weights for compound exercises. Most machines limit your motion to one plane - for example, strictly vertically. However, proper compound lifting motions are usually not straight. For example, when properly doing bench press, at the bottom of the motion the bar is at the bottom of the chest (around your nipples) and at the top of the motion it's near the top of the chest (around your collar bones). If seen from the side, it's a curved motion towards your head, not straight up and down. However, most bench press machines lock you into a straight up and down motion. Not only is this less effective in terms of strength gains, locking you into a fixed and improper motion is a very good way to injure yourself as you go up in weight.

2. The reason compound motions are preferred to isolation exercises is that by involving more muscles and joints, you get a better response from the body in terms if increased strength and size. Well, doing compound motions with free weights uses more muscles than doing the "same" compound motions with machines. As others mentioned, this is partially because free weights force you to use a lot of muscles to balance yourself that you won't employ when using machines. These stabilizers are very important in injury prevention and building overall strength. However, I again must point out, that since machines change the motion of the exercise, the differences in what muscles are used can be MUCH more than just stabilizers.

The best example is the squat. When done with free weights, it uses something like 70% of the muscles in your body: quads, hamstrings, hip abductors, calves, gluts, lower back, upper back, abs. As a result, it produces a strong hormonal release that boosts muscle growth in your entire body, not just your legs. If you do leg press instead, you almost completely remove your back, hips, and calves from the exercise and make it MUCH more quad based. You might get big legs as a result, but the rest of your strength gains will be significantly diminished. Even doing leg press on a smith machine (where a normal olympic bar is attached to cables inside of a squat rack) is not at all the same. The motion on a smith machine is restricted to straight up and down, which is not at all natural for a free weight squat, where the butt goes backwards and the body bends forward. As a result, doing squats on a smith machine has people essentially leaning back against the bar, which again removes most of the back, abs, calves from the equation and significantly reduces the effectiveness of the exercise.

3. Pull downs - and indeed, many cable exercises - are a bit of an exception. The cable gives you almost the same range of motion as free weights, so doing a pull down is very similar (as long as you use proper form) to doing a pull up. If you struggle doing pull ups with your body weight, they are a good way to work up to it.

Take your time and learn to do the exercises properly with free weights. Start with light weight - check your ego and do lighter than you are capable of - and work your way up. Focus on strict form and not weight. After a couple of months, your body will be used to the motions and you'll benefit on all fronts: compared to using machines, you'll be healthier, stronger and will be able to continue making progress for the long term.

 

[KeypoX]

Originally posted by: neodyn55

Originally posted by: gramboh
Honestly it is a HUGE difference using freeweight (barbell) for compound movements over machines, it's not even close. Machines balance the weight for you, while free weights your stablizer muscles have to do the work. If you are worried about form, practice with just the bar or even hire a personal trainer to teach you the correct form (check with another source to make sure they aren't teaching you BS, e.g. make sure it isn't a trainer that thinks squatting deep is automatically bad).

Lat pull down: Do pull-ups instead, they are easy to learn, don't worry if you can't complete a single rep on your first try, the easiest way is to use assistance bands (you loop it over the pull-up bar and put one knee in). A few months ago I couldn't do a single pull-up properly (used the "I'm too heavy" excuse to rationalize). Yesterday I did 3 sets, 5, 4 and 3 with strict form.

Machine bench press: You are not balancing the weight and the weight moves in a set path, can be bad for your shoulders and bad for overall strength development. Learn the benchpress with just the bar using strict form (tons of info on the net, stronglifts.com is what I recommend). Ask random people in the gym to spot you, this is weird at first (at least for me) but it makes a big difference since you are more confident lifting with a spotter.

Leg press: I used to do this a lot because it felt good to put a ton of plates on and move them up and down. After doing research I discovered that squatting is far and away the most important/useful exercise in leg (and total body) strength. Learn to squat properly with the barbell and you will make big gains, and it feels good too.

The biggest thing to think about is that you will get used to doing these exercises and see the benefits of them and then wonder why you weren't doing them that way before. It doesn't take long to get comfortable with them in the gym, I know it was hard for me at first, trying to learn new exercises and being worried about looking dumb, but no one cares, they should be happy to see more people trying it out.

Overall recommendation: You seem interested in strength training, buy "Starting Strength Volume 2" by Mark Rippetoe from amazon.com. It has hundreds of pages of extremely detailed (yet easy to understand) descriptions of all the major compound exercises and WHY you should do them properly. Stronglifts.com has a ton of great info/videos as well. I am still a novice in this game, but I have been learning a lot through those resources and forums like this. Good luck!

Exactly the information I was looking for! Thanks so much.

Its good you found the info you wanted but you get alot of bad information when you start working out. Start either asking for references or find the truth yourself.
All the bodybuilding mags and stuff give mostly bad information. Im not trying to imply that machines are better than freeweights but sometimes they are.

The leg press for instance is great for reducing stress in your knees and lower back from squats. They also build your quads very well. The pull down machine is great and i dont see pullups providing any more benefit than a pulldown machine. (Would need to look up some literature on this) The bench press free weight is great but often the most abused/misused piece of equipment. You need to find info on proper form for it before you hurt your shoulders.

One site and style i found a couple years ago is HST. http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html
I dunno if its still popular as since i found it i stopped going to my old BB forum lol.

All and all i agree with the info given but it is the same basic reply you will get from most BBers.

 

[KeypoX]

Originally posted by: brikis98
one more vote in favor of free weights:

1. You need to realize that the motion in a machine is NOT the same as with free weights for compound exercises. Most machines limit your motion to one plane - for example, strictly vertically. However, proper compound lifting motions are usually not straight. For example, when properly doing bench press, at the bottom of the motion the bar is at the bottom of the chest (around your nipples) and at the top of the motion it's near the top of the chest (around your collar bones). If seen from the side, it's a curved motion towards your head, not straight up and down. However, most bench press machines lock you into a straight up and down motion. Not only is this less effective in terms of strength gains, locking you into a fixed and improper motion is a very good way to injure yourself as you go up in weight.

2. The reason compound motions are preferred to isolation exercises is that by involving more muscles and joints, you get a better response from the body in terms if increased strength and size. Well, doing compound motions with free weights uses more muscles than doing the "same" compound motions with machines. As others mentioned, this is partially because free weights force you to use a lot of muscles to balance yourself that you won't employ when using machines. These stabilizers are very important in injury prevention and building overall strength. However, I again must point out, that since machines change the motion of the exercise, the differences in what muscles are used can be MUCH more than just stabilizers.

The best example is the squat. When done with free weights, it uses something like 70% of the muscles in your body: quads, hamstrings, hip abductors, calves, gluts, lower back, upper back, abs. As a result, it produces a strong hormonal release that boosts muscle growth in your entire body, not just your legs. If you do leg press instead, you almost completely remove your back, hips, and calves from the exercise and make it MUCH more quad based. You might get big legs as a result, but the rest of your strength gains will be significantly diminished. Even doing leg press on a smith machine (where a normal olympic bar is attached to cables inside of a squat rack) is not at all the same. The motion on a smith machine is restricted to straight up and down, which is not at all natural for a free weight squat, where the butt goes backwards and the body bends forward. As a result, doing squats on a smith machine has people essentially leaning back against the bar, which again removes most of the back, abs, calves from the equation and significantly reduces the effectiveness of the exercise.

3. Pull downs - and indeed, many cable exercises - are a bit of an exception. The cable gives you almost the same range of motion as free weights, so doing a pull down is very similar (as long as you use proper form) to doing a pull up. If you struggle doing pull ups with your body weight, they are a good way to work up to it.

Take your time and learn to do the exercises properly with free weights. Start with light weight - check your ego and do lighter than you are capable of - and work your way up. Focus on strict form and not weight. After a couple of months, your body will be used to the motions and you'll benefit on all fronts: compared to using machines, you'll be healthier, stronger and will be able to continue making progress for the long term.

Great post and he points out that compounds are way better than isolations.

 

[paulxcook]

Properly executed squats are 100x better than leg press, and are good for your knees. The idea that squats are bad for your knees is a myth. And lower back injuries from squats would be due to poor form. I can't think of a good reason anyone should ever substitute leg press for squats.

 

[LLCOOLJ]

Originally posted by: paulxcook
Properly executed squats are 100x better than leg press, and are good for your knees. The idea that squats are bad for your knees is a myth. And lower back injuries from squats would be due to poor form. I can't think of a good reason anyone should ever substitute leg press for squats.

A pre-existing lower back problem. If you've got bad knees Leg Press or Squats would probably be tough for you.

For those who are beginners reading these forums please keep in mind that a lot of those dishing out advice here are just novices themselves. While free weights are better machines also work. Every competitive Body Builder I know uses Free Weights, Cable Equipment and Machines. If you are just looking for an athletic physique you can achieve it with any of the equipment if you train hard, eat healthy and do cardio.

 

[paulxcook]

Leg presses are for legs (mainly quads). Squats are for hams, quads, glutes, and lower back. My level of experience has nothing to do with the truth. Go on any serious weightlifting or powerlifting forum and see what the guys with 1600 lb. totals have to say about leg press as a substitute for squats.

And yes, a lower back injury would be a good reason to not do squats. That doesn't make leg press a valid replacement, there is no valid replacement.

People on the internet do sometimes get dogmatic about using free weights instead of machines, but the fact is that they are better. It's not like machines are completely useless, just inferior when it comes to strength training.

And btw, every competitive bodybuilder that makes money (Coleman, Cutler, Ruhl, Martinez, etc) are on gear (read: roids) that allows them to gain muscle in ways natural lifters can only dream of. Since their ability to make money hinges in part on their appearance and their ability to show off their appearance, it makes sense that these men would maintain their physique using machines that offer less risk. But if you think guys like Ronnie got as big as they did using machines alone, you're crazy.