Composite decking

[Greenman]

Count your lucky stars that you're not using Redwood decking. The stuff is worth it's weight in gold.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Count your lucky stars that you're not using Redwood decking. The stuff is worth it's weight in gold.

My Parents had a redwood sided house
If I remember correctly the sold pric included a wood siding upgrade. House was being sided after a big blizzard (1978) then shortly after move in.
Builder started siding it with some shitty cardboard cement filled board that looked very flimsy. I remember that day when my dad & I stopped by to check out the unfinished house, my Dad said “bullshit, I paid for whatever wood” maybe pine(?) work foreman said that wood is sold out due to the weather. My dad said there needs to be wood.
I assume the lawyer made a call about this and turned out only wood available was redwood and from what I heard the lawyer said well it has to sided with wood, you decide.
We moved in with redwood.
30 something years later the siding look nearly new, full sun side was a little dried out but not cracked, no rot, only imperfections was sun side was slightly groves and took twice the stain when it needed to be applied.

 

[Greenman]

My Parents had a redwood sided house
If I remember correctly the sold pric included a wood siding upgrade. House was being sided after a big blizzard (1978) then shortly after move in.
Builder started siding it with some shitty cardboard cement filled board that looked very flimsy. I remember that day when my dad & I stopped by to check out the unfinished house, my Dad said “bullshit, I paid for whatever wood” maybe pine(?) work foreman said that wood is sold out due to the weather. My dad said there needs to be wood.
I assume the lawyer made a call about this and turned out only wood available was redwood and from what I heard the lawyer said well it has to sided with wood, you decide.
We moved in with redwood.
30 something years later the siding look nearly new, full sun side was a little dried out but not cracked, no rot, only imperfections was sun side was slightly groves and took twice the stain when it needed to be applied.

Right now lumber is going up so fast that I can't give a firm bid. I just priced some redwood decking and the poorest grade that I consider unusable for a deck is more expensive than top quality clear vertical grain kiln dried material was a year ago. If you can get it.

I nearly had a stroke when 1/2 OSB hit $39 a sheet a month and a half ago, got a quote yesterday for $82 a sheet. The construction industry is about to die.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Right now lumber is going up so fast that I can't give a firm bid. I just priced some redwood decking and the poorest grade that I consider unusable for a deck is more expensive than top quality clear vertical grain kiln dried material was a year ago. If you can get it.

I nearly had a stroke when 1/2 OSB hit $39 a sheet a month and a half ago, got a quote yesterday for $82 a sheet. The construction industry is about to die.

it will balance, all the stuff people didn't do last year is being done now. This isn't to day your business won't last it is just saying at some point the corona payments and jobs will draw down and prices will return to normal.
But yeah that's what started me on the trex thing, it is cheaper or nearly the same cost as replacing with crappy quality wood. Admittedly I need more stuff like the fasteners and I need to replace 20 boards instead or 6 to 10 but still $2oo to $300ish in wood or $600-700 ish in trex. No staining, smooth surface my wife will like. Makes it much easier to accept.

 

[paperfist]

Yeah, I have noticed that. The foggy wharf version is similar color thru the whole board. I am likely just going to leave the scalloped end as is if it bothers me I will figure something out. The deck door is our main entrance so there is a good chance it will get on my nerves. Framing just adds to much to the job and I really don't want to go down that road.
Per my reading Trex has changed how they make their boards a few years ago appearently they are far more scratch resistant and less likely to fad after 3 months. I think it was something like the majority of fading will happen in the first 90 days then it slows down so it is possible to replace one board in the future and after 90 days the color should be comparable

I thought besides skirting they made something to 'hide' the ends? I think it's facia boards.

I was looking at the Trex again and they had something like a 25 year fade warranty. Though Greenman could probably chime in as to whether they'd actually honor that. I heard siding and roofing warranties are a nightmare to get covered.

Still even with that improvement I'd also be hesitant about a shovel going through the protective layer. I was going to do my front porch last year with Trex Transend till I learned about that top coating being vulnerable. Like I said though some of their other lines are solid.

 

[paperfist]

Right now lumber is going up so fast that I can't give a firm bid. I just priced some redwood decking and the poorest grade that I consider unusable for a deck is more expensive than top quality clear vertical grain kiln dried material was a year ago. If you can get it.

I nearly had a stroke when 1/2 OSB hit $39 a sheet a month and a half ago, got a quote yesterday for $82 a sheet. The construction industry is about to die.

OMG I thought your were joking about OSB until I just looked it up. HTF can that junk cost $82??!?!?!?

I thought redwood was a protected species?

 

[Greenman]

I assume redwood if farmed like any other lumber.
All timber products have gone insane, demand is high and supply is shrinking. Some lumber yards have started limiting the amount you can buy at one time. It's not a fun time to be a contractor.

 

[Homerboy]

I wanted to do this exact same thing to our rotten 22 year old deck - replace it with composite. "Sadly", we opted to do a refresh of our kitchen instead (which I'm still knee deep in).
I was walking/working on the deck this weekend and snapped through a board

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I wanted to do this exact same thing to our rotten 22 year old deck - replace it with composite. "Sadly", we opted to do a refresh of our kitchen instead (which I'm still knee deep in).
I was walking/working on the deck this weekend and snapped through a board

yeah that could have happened to me if I waited too long.
I plan on keeping my “base” so far it is in reasonable shape. I’ll fix the small rot spots and likely apply a wood preserve plus use the joint tape stuff.
Kitchen refresh is generally a better call, you get much more use out of a kitchen than a deck.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I assume redwood if farmed like any other lumber.
All timber products have gone insane, demand is high and supply is shrinking. Some lumber yards have started limiting the amount you can buy at one time. It's not a fun time to be a contractor.

Hang in there man and don’t take on more customers than you can properly serve and don’t take the easy route on every job. I know it is frustrating when the other guy in the area uses the cheapest stuff and cuts every corner possible. Reality is he is only doing better for the short run, long run you will do better because your business will be on a solid foundation.

 

[Homerboy]

yeah that could have happened to me if I waited too long.
I plan on keeping my “base” so far it is in reasonable shape. I’ll fix the small rot spots and likely apply a wood preserve plus use the joint tape stuff.
Kitchen refresh is generally a better call, you get much more use out of a kitchen than a deck.

This is how my wife won the argument. Though I've been saying for 10 years now the deck has to be replaced and every year something else takes it's place - or there's just not the time/money. My substructure is still rock solid. I will once again replace a few of the worst boards to make it through another summer. And maybe next year...

 

[Greenman]

This is how my wife won the argument. Though I've been saying for 10 years now the deck has to be replaced and every year something else takes it's place - or there's just not the time/money. My substructure is still rock solid. I will once again replace a few of the worst boards to make it through another summer. And maybe next year...

That might not be such a bad thing right now. Lumber is up 400 to 500% from a year ago. It's mind boggling. I'd actually feel better about if the guy behind the counter pointed a gun at me when he gives me the total.
Hijacking lumber trucks is bound to start happening. And telling my clients "your going to need another mortgage" really sucks.

 

[BoomerD]

I assume redwood if farmed like any other lumber.
All timber products have gone insane, demand is high and supply is shrinking. Some lumber yards have started limiting the amount you can buy at one time. It's not a fun time to be a contractor.

Redwood is about impossible to find outside of CA. here in WA, folks use cedar for the things we used redwood for in CA. Decks, fences, siding, etc.

Lumber prices have gotten so crazy, I'm thinking about dismantling my house and selling it for parts...

7/16" OSB is about $58/4x8 sheet. 5/8" is about $70. Last time I bought the stuff, (2014) it was about $8-$10/sheet.

 

[Homerboy]

That might not be such a bad thing right now. Lumber is up 400 to 500% from a year ago. It's mind boggling. I'd actually feel better about if the guy behind the counter pointed a gun at me when he gives me the total.
Hijacking lumber trucks is bound to start happening. And telling my clients "your going to need another mortgage" really sucks.

Yeah - trust me, it would NOT have been done in wood this year. If I did pull the trigger (which I'm not) the lumbar prices would have "allowed' me to go composite (which is what I really want to do anyways).

 

[BoomerD]

I'm in the position of needing to fence my back yard to keep the deer out...and the fckn coyotes who seem to think little rat dogs are scooby snacks. (yes, they've TRIED to get to them)
We had discussed having it done a year ago...mix of 6' chain link across the back so we didn't lose our view and 6' cedar privacy fence between us and the neighbors (or chain link...whichever was cheaper). A bit over 100' total.
Prices from fencing contractors were mostly in the $1500-$1700 range...with the only contractor who is actually from this town coming in at $3200
Fast forward a year...those same contractors are telling me the price for lumber has gone up so much, with the cedar fence run, $3500. If I go all 6' chain link...$2600-$2800.
So...I started looking into doing it myself. At the local Home Depot, 4x4x8' pressure treated timbers...$25+ each, 2x4x8' pressure treated, about $13 each.
17 4x4 posts, 2-2x4 crossrails between them, 2 sacks of concrete mix for each post...I'm at around $1000 just for the lumber...then around $300 for the 6' welded wire, at least $50 for the staples to nail the wire to the lumber....fckn shoot me.

 

[Homerboy]

I'm in the position of needing to fence my back yard to keep the deer out...and the fckn coyotes who seem to think little rat dogs are scooby snacks. (yes, they've TRIED to get to them)
We had discussed having it done a year ago...mix of 6' chain link across the back so we didn't lose our view and 6' cedar privacy fence between us and the neighbors (or chain link...whichever was cheaper). A bit over 100' total.
Prices from fencing contractors were mostly in the $1500-$1700 range...with the only contractor who is actually from this town coming in at $3200
Fast forward a year...those same contractors are telling me the price for lumber has gone up so much, with the cedar fence run, $3500. If I go all 6' chain link...$2600-$2800.
So...I started looking into doing it myself. At the local Home Depot, 4x4x8' pressure treated timbers...$25+ each, 2x4x8' pressure treated, about $13 each.
17 4x4 posts, 2-2x4 crossrails between them, 2 sacks of concrete mix for each post...I'm at around $1000 just for the lumber...then around $300 for the 6' welded wire, at least $50 for the staples to nail the wire to the lumber....fckn shoot me.

Livin' ain't cheap!

 

[Scarpozzi]

Here's my info about TREX composite decking and hidden fasteners. It's a good system and I'll break down the pros and cons real quick. I missed the initial post on this one....hope I'm not too late. In 2017, my wife said she wanted a deck so I pulled a permit and she convinced me to build the biggest one I could for the money. I went with a 16'X20'. I put a 20' long board against my house and ran the 16' boards away from the house on 12" centers for composite decking.

Composite boards need 12" centers because they don't have the rigidity that dimensional lumber has. You want to make sure that you put a level across your joists and verify that they are as close to level as possible...if not, either shim or use a plane to get them level. Composite decking will ride up and those variations can mess with how straight the boards lay due to the way the T fasteners work. I'm going to get to why you really do want these in a minute.

Lowes stocks 2 grades of Trex...they have boards that run about $21 per 12' board and then some that run $30 per 12' board here. Two colors of each....the Clamshell and Saddle are the stock cheap Gray and Brown colors. Saddle looks like a board that was painted brown....not a good look. Clamshell, on the other hand is a good looking board and makes for a great looking deck (IMHO). I just refinished my floating boat dock with the $30 each Toasted Sand boards (more layered color brown)....Foggy Wharf is a lighter gray/whitewash color they also have. Other locations may have different colors too...those are just the main ones here. I'll share some pictures.

Now....the Trex system is grooved on the sides and you likely don't want grooves showing, so you need to fasten some boards around and picture frame your deck with a non-grooved board. I didn't do this on my dock because I'm going to put up real wood bumper boards soon for boats to slam into....that will hide all the edges. I did on the deck on my house.... The grooves allow hidden fasteners to go in...the REAL advantage to this system is that you use 1 screw per fastener in the joist between each board, instead of 3 screws per joist per board....do the math on that. It's not about the cost of the screws, it's about how much water is going to seep into those screw holes and rot the joists. My boat dock was brand new in 2012.....all but 2 of the joists were badly rotten and it's not even been in the water since 2014. Rain and sun rotted it thanks to the crappy treated lumber they sell these days. Try not to put holes in it.

Another pro-tip. Buy Window flashing in rolls (tar and foil) and get some scissors/snips.....the rolls are 4" wide typically by 50' or more. Cut them in half longways to double how much you have. Then lay that on top of the joist under the decking boards before you put the fasteners on. The tar will seal water out and you only spent a few bucks to save each joist from rotting so fast.



The original joists were on 2' centers to reduce weight and allow for the dock floats (that also provided support), so I added 2x6's for the deck supports and to cut costs/weight....but not necessarily for strength. The dock doesn't hold more than just a few people and you don't have to worry about live load, etc since it's floating. You can't see from those pictures, but it actually rolls up and down the pilings on rollers that go on dogears that haven't been rebuilt in those pictures yet (my silly design due to stupid wakeboard traffic on weekends). You can clearly see the window flashing in those dock pictures, but I did the same thing on the house deck as well.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Here's my info about TREX composite decking and hidden fasteners. It's a good system and I'll break down the pros and cons real quick. I missed the initial post on this one....hope I'm not too late. In 2017, my wife said she wanted a deck so I pulled a permit and she convinced me to build the biggest one I could for the money. I went with a 16'X20'. I put a 20' long board against my house and ran the 16' boards away from the house on 12" centers for composite decking.

Composite boards need 12" centers because they don't have the rigidity that dimensional lumber has. You want to make sure that you put a level across your joists and verify that they are as close to level as possible...if not, either shim or use a plane to get them level. Composite decking will ride up and those variations can mess with how straight the boards lay due to the way the T fasteners work. I'm going to get to why you really do want these in a minute.

Lowes stocks 2 grades of Trex...they have boards that run about $21 per 12' board and then some that run $30 per 12' board here. Two colors of each....the Clamshell and Saddle are the stock cheap Gray and Brown colors. Saddle looks like a board that was painted brown....not a good look. Clamshell, on the other hand is a good looking board and makes for a great looking deck (IMHO). I just refinished my floating boat dock with the $30 each Toasted Sand boards (more layered color brown)....Foggy Wharf is a lighter gray/whitewash color they also have. Other locations may have different colors too...those are just the main ones here. I'll share some pictures.

Now....the Trex system is grooved on the sides and you likely don't want grooves showing, so you need to fasten some boards around and picture frame your deck with a non-grooved board. I didn't do this on my dock because I'm going to put up real wood bumper boards soon for boats to slam into....that will hide all the edges. I did on the deck on my house.... The grooves allow hidden fasteners to go in...the REAL advantage to this system is that you use 1 screw per fastener in the joist between each board, instead of 3 screws per joist per board....do the math on that. It's not about the cost of the screws, it's about how much water is going to seep into those screw holes and rot the joists. My boat dock was brand new in 2012.....all but 2 of the joists were badly rotten and it's not even been in the water since 2014. Rain and sun rotted it thanks to the crappy treated lumber they sell these days. Try not to put holes in it.

Another pro-tip. Buy Window flashing in rolls (tar and foil) and get some scissors/snips.....the rolls are 4" wide typically by 50' or more. Cut them in half longways to double how much you have. Then lay that on top of the joist under the decking boards before you put the fasteners on. The tar will seal water out and you only spent a few bucks to save each joist from rotting so fast.

View attachment 44331View attachment 44332

The original joists were on 2' centers to reduce weight and allow for the dock floats (that also provided support), so I added 2x6's for the deck supports and to cut costs/weight....but not necessarily for strength. The dock doesn't hold more than just a few people and you don't have to worry about live load, etc since it's floating. You can't see from those pictures, but it actually rolls up and down the pilings on rollers that go on dogears that haven't been rebuilt in those pictures yet (my silly design due to stupid wakeboard traffic on weekends). You can clearly see the window flashing in those dock pictures, but I did the same thing on the house deck as well.

View attachment 44333View attachment 44334

thanks great info here.
My project is going slow been interrupted by rain several times but there is no rush so I am not stressed. Wife has decided on the set up from trex basics to foggy warf enhanced natural. I was going to try a picture frame but decided that is really for building a new deck, not retro fitting an existing base. The scalloped ends will likely bother me for 3 months then it won’t bother me but if it still does I will either do some sort of trim piece to cover the ends or as Greenman said some type of facia board. Trex doesn’t advise covering the end with a facia board for whatever reason (I suspect it has to do wil selling more trex boards). Retro fitting my deck would lead to a lot of waste imo and adds a lot of complexity I do not have the skill or patience to deal with.
I do plan on using the trex hidden fasteners, they seem easy and I like how you can put them in loose and adjust as you go, then tighten at the end. I am really concerned about keeping them straight.

I plan on leaving a 1/4 inch gap at the home end to:
Aid water drainage
Make my cuts easier
Less fiddling with taking off the vinyl siding that is cheap Home Depot quality and certain to crack thus generating more irritating cuts.

I plan on leveling the boards which so far to the eye appear fairly level, I have a 4 foot level I will use and I will also run a string. I have a wood plane and an old power sander if needed. This task could be difficult because I have broken nails all over the joists.
I need to verify I am 16” on center, I assume I am that is and has been code in my area forever. Trex says 16” or less for vertical boards, did you have a bouncing problem with 16”?

I have some roofing tape to cover the top of the joists but not the metal flashing type, is there a benefit in the metal type you mentioned?

 

[Scarpozzi]

thanks great info here.
My project is going slow been interrupted by rain several times but there is no rush so I am not stressed. Wife has decided on the set up from trex basics to foggy warf enhanced natural. I was going to try a picture frame but decided that is really for building a new deck, not retro fitting an existing base. The scalloped ends will likely bother me for 3 months then it won’t bother me but if it still does I will either do some sort of trim piece to cover the ends or as Greenman said some type of facia board. Trex doesn’t advise covering the end with a facia board for whatever reason (I suspect it has to do wil selling more trex boards). Retro fitting my deck would lead to a lot of waste imo and adds a lot of complexity I do not have the skill or patience to deal with.
I do plan on using the trex hidden fasteners, they seem easy and I like how you can put them in loose and adjust as you go, then tighten at the end. I am really concerned about keeping them straight.

I plan on leaving a 1/4 inch gap at the home end to:
Aid water drainage
Make my cuts easier
Less fiddling with taking off the vinyl siding that is cheap Home Depot quality and certain to crack thus generating more irritating cuts.

I plan on leveling the boards which so far to the eye appear fairly level, I have a 4 foot level I will use and I will also run a string. I have a wood plane and an old power sander if needed. This task could be difficult because I have broken nails all over the joists.
I need to verify I am 16” on center, I assume I am that is and has been code in my area forever. Trex says 16” or less for vertical boards, did you have a bouncing problem with 16”?

I have some roofing tape to cover the top of the joists but not the metal flashing type, is there a benefit in the metal type you mentioned?

When doing my picture frame, I just added a few boards to make the joist lengths come out right. On the edges, you want a little overhang. It just took another board to make it come out the way I wanted....so maybe retro fitting wouldn't be as bad as you think. I certainly wouldn't want to rip a composite board, but dimensional lumber is almost 2" wide and the boards are 5" wide... It wouldn't take much to sister a joist and let the overhangs absorb anything else for your picture frame. I simply screwed it in place and then put a few lag bolts in it to keep from having to deal with carriage bolts at that point. It wasn't really supporting anything but that last half of the board.

I understand what you're saying about waste too. My lake neighbor was impressed with my dock....he was kicking himself because in 2012, he built a dock beside his boat house and made it 14'X14' to match his pilings. If he wanted to do anything, he's stuck cutting 16' boards and throwing 2 linear feet away per board...almost no matter how he does it. I suggested he shrink his dock footprint or file a new permit for a 16' X 14'. There's just cost involved in getting the permit.

Those non-slotted boards are really what I suggest for a finished look....trust me. Check out my picture frame work....I literally did that in maybe 30 minutes...just 4 cuts and then using regular decking screws (the good ones) to fasten the boards. The hidden fasteners have a T shape so they're designed to go between the boards and they handle the spacing for you 100%. You actually need to push them together as tight as you can so your rows stay straight. I had a row get off when I was doing my deck....probably 15 decking boards from the starter row....and I had put down 10 rows. I had to take those 10 rows up and realign them because once it was skewed, the boards were off a little more each row I went. I took measurements from the board I was on to the remaining edge and saw that it would be off by more than a half inch, so I spread the difference across those 10 rows and got it back in alignment.

This is because the T fasteners can be tight or loose and after 10+ boards, you can easily be off by a quarter to a half inch or more....you gotta take measurements and make sure you're not making one side of the board tighter than the other end (or it will drift a little). I positioned the first board exactly where I wanted it and inserted the starter clips (C-shaped clips that screw in under the board instead of the T clips). Once I got the C clips inserted in the groove, I marked a line on each one so I could remove the board and install them.

 

[Scarpozzi]

A few more general comments about composite boards. Some composite decking boards have been known to fade and even dry rot from UV exposure. I read a lot of bad reviews pertaining to some of the brands out there and settled on Trex because of those reviews and because my Father in Law had a deck built with the stuff.

If you have any outdoor rugs, make sure you move them around on occasion so the sun exposure is a little more even. Also, make sure you don't use a pressure washer with anything over 1200 psi. My father in law is OCD on cleaning and ruined his deck using 2000-3000 psi on his. If your deck if full sun, facing West, it may decline faster too....so consider sun sails or awnings to prolong the life.

I'm very happy that my deck faces East and is shadowed by my roughly 28' high garage each afternoon....starting around 3pm. Summer afternoons and Evenings are really great for drinking back there.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Yeah I would love to do all non slotted boards however budget does not permit such a luxury.
You have a good idea with the sister board, I do have some lumber left from last years stair replacement project. Maybe a couple of sister boards on the joists near the stair since this is the heavily used area. Backdoor off the deck is out main entrance.
Just quick maths, if I use four 2x10’s maybe four feet long I could close the gap from 16” to 13(ish)”. I have two left over from last year. I have plenty of construction high load screws.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Yeah I would love to do all non slotted boards however budget does not permit such a luxury.
You have a good idea with the sister board, I do have some lumber left from last years stair replacement project. Maybe a couple of sister boards on the joists near the stair since this is the heavily used area. Backdoor off the deck is out main entrance.
Just quick maths, if I use four 2x10’s maybe four feet long I could close the gap from 16” to 13(ish)”. I have two left over from last year. I have plenty of construction high load screws.

I only put non-slotted boards on 3 sides...wasn't that expensive.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

A few more general comments about composite boards. Some composite decking boards have been known to fade and even dry rot from UV exposure. I read a lot of bad reviews pertaining to some of the brands out there and settled on Trex because of those reviews and because my Father in Law had a deck built with the stuff.

If you have any outdoor rugs, make sure you move them around on occasion so the sun exposure is a little more even. Also, make sure you don't use a pressure washer with anything over 1200 psi. My father in law is OCD on cleaning and ruined his deck using 2000-3000 psi on his. If your deck if full sun, facing West, it may decline faster too....so consider sun sails or awnings to prolong the life.

I'm very happy that my deck faces East and is shadowed by my roughly 28' high garage each afternoon....starting around 3pm. Summer afternoons and Evenings are really great for drinking back there.

Yeah good tips I have read about these problems.
Also they tend to generate static.
Trex seems to have a good handle on this stuff they claim their “new generation” stuff made from three years ago:
Fades but nearly all of the fading/bleaching happens in the first three months, this could explain how some YouTube videos complain about color differences in the same lot. Top boards got sun for three months, others did not.
More scratch resistant
Power washer okay up to 1200psi
Something about a bonding agent retaining less heat


*I probably should move my grill every season or something*

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I only put non-slotted boards on 3 sides...wasn't that expensive.

oh sorry misunderstood, I was talking trex premium line for the whole damn thing. You mean the end boards. Those absolutely will not be slotted. I may do that for the end near the house too. I think it will look the same either way sort of thinking it will be easier to end just screw that piece in.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Finally stripped the majority of the deck boards. So far only a couple of small soft spots and quick checks appear pretty level. I haven’t gotten to the ledger board yet.
Two questions,
First: one joist is cracked and split I am sort of concerned about this because it is in the middle crack is about two feet long, can I add a four foot sister board to brace it?
Second: would it be a good idea to add some sister boards to where out door to the house is? This is our primary entrance, basically would it be a good idea instead of 16” on center which is the max trex can do reduce it to 13” on center by the heavily used portion by the door?

I have 8’ of 2x10 and some 2x4 left over from last year all ground rated stuff. I’m not against getting robbed for another 8’ 2x10.

Edit: would it be cool to attach them with good quality construction screws (grk or spax) instead of a bolt? No permit required so I am not concerned with inspection.