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College: The Biggest Scam in America.

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Most people can survive just fine without a college degree if they really wanted to. Might require a tech school to make the income they want - but it can be done.

What's sad and pathetic is that it's only getting worse - as Master's is the new Bachelor's. With where I have achieved in my life as far as career - I'm perfectly content, so I refuse to go back for a Masters for no real reason.... And thats the biggest problem, people are going to school or going back to school without asking the most crucial important question... "Why should you go?" If your answer is "Society pressure" or "My parents told me to" chances are it's simply not for it.
 
Ajay said:
I finished college around 30 years ago, it was worth it to me and to my pocket book. Going by the CPI (from the BLS), college would cost me ~$5K/year vs $2K/year when I studied for my BS in a state school. The same college charges about $16K/year today for the program of study that I was in (tuition only). So I do wonder why the cost is 3 times the rate of inflation. If college costs had only gone up with inflation, they would still be a reasonable expense based on the reward. Taxing universities isn't an answer and the youtube personality didn't provide one. Costs need to come down, even if we go with more public funding for public colleges (not for private). Something is wrong.

PS This topic should be in P&N, IMHO.
Click to expand...

If you're wondering why the costs went up so much - that's not a question. It's been well established.

<Insert Supply/Demand Graph>

You see, when you have 20,000 people that DEMAND a college seat - but there are only 5,000 seat buckets to fill at a given university - that is the means of why prices have sky-rocketed.

The fact is that everyone now is special and everyone is now meant for college. Previously it was well established that some people simply weren't meant for college - and that was completely fine and accepted in society.

Add on top of that the fact that the government will give a loan to anyone for anything and that further increases in the form of "artificial demand" - which essentially means demand that wouldn't have been there if the "we will give you a loan for anything" wasn't there.
 
highland145 said:
And back to the government...


+1 for the contacts that you meet in college.

My son has no idea what he wants to do/study so he just says business. I ask what's going to make him stand out from 20K new business degree grads? He'd better have the grades/intern/specialize and expect to get his masters. The other is that a business degree from the local uni/ Darla Moore business school/ Wharton are not equal.

Last week, he started talking about chemistry majors.....It's good to be 17.
Click to expand...

Fellow business grad here. Best thing IMO is to not get a standard "Business Administration" degree. MIS, CIS - hell even Accounting do way better IMO.

In a school of ~20,000 I was one of... I think 8 fellow CIS grads when we graduated. Shit tons of Business Admin though.
 
highland145 said:
? educate me. 🙂
Click to expand...

MIS = Management Information Systems
CIS = Computer Information Systems

Basically the same degree, colleges typically offer one or the other (not both). Tends to be much more tech-based - which has been proven useful in my working days.

Business people that are IT retarded are plenty.
IT people that are business retarded are plenty.

People that are able to bridge those divides? Priceless.
 
s0me0nesmind1 said:
The fact is that everyone now is special and everyone is now meant for college. Previously it was well established that some people simply weren't meant for college - and that was completely fine and accepted in society.
Click to expand...
What period of time was this? From the 1960's on. All schools taught the only way to "get ahead" was to go to college.
 
I think allot of people who go for four year degrees would be better suited for a two year associate's degree. Educated them up a bit with a healthy does of industry specific skill. If you really do well and want to know get into heavier stuff (like engineering or business school), then move along that path. I also think there are too many people who take the Liberal Arts pathway, only to be shocked at the difficulty they have when it comes to employment (unless graduate with honors, at the least and from a top school).
 
College/University pricing is out of control in this country. The one thing I find very favorable about getting a college education is that those with one tend to vote smarter. Usually less educated rubes vote for scum like Trump vs the college educated who tend to see through garbage like him. To make a living, I don't think college should be necessary, there are plenty of honorable and great careers without college. However, I almost think it should be required to be a citizen at this point seeing how far we've fallen as a nation.
 
I have a degree in Computer Science, and I've felt a bit resentful about it over the years. I think part of the problem is that I should've pushed for a college/university that was a bit more challenging. I barely felt challenged throughout my time there to the point where I took 300-level courses in my freshman year. It probably didn't help that 100-level courses were considered beginner courses, and I had already been programming at home and in high school. I gained a lot of knowledge about "the real world" from an internship that I took between my junior and senior year, which was quite eye-opening.

It's worth noting that while the Internet was certainly around during my college days, it has changed a lot since then. It's certainly plausible that someone could learn how to design and develop software without stepping foot on campus, and honestly, they could be better than those with a degree. However, you are fighting an uphill battle, because that piece of paper is a very quick filtering method. Although, there is one very important aspect that can easily overcome it, and it's important regardless of whether you attend college or not... networking. One nice aspect of learning to program on your own is that you can take part in social programming projects (e.g. open source), which I would highly recommend as it not only provides valuable experience but also the chance to network with others.

Ultimately, it isn't that hard to weed out a newbie programmer whether they went to college or not. It only takes a few thought-related questions just to see how you handle problem/task decomposition. For example, a previous boss of mine liked to ask "How many gas stations are there in the United States?" in interviews. It was a little bit of a trick question, because he didn't care if you got it right or were even close. What he was looking for was your reasoning, or how you broke down the problem (50 states, c number of counties per state, s number of stations per county, etc.).

The one thing that I do notice in some of my peers is the complete disdain for testing. I think this becomes a bit of a problem, because not having experience in software test usually results in not having a good testing mindset. I tend to see the results of this a lot when I review unit tests as the tests may have full coverage, but they often fail to verify all necessary output or verify proper data flow throughout a function.

MrSquished said:
The one thing I find very favorable about getting a college education is that those with one tend to vote smarter.
Click to expand...

While this is purely anecdotal, I've met plenty of people that are very capable within their domain yet will gladly spout political conspiracy theories. You can just imagine how much I'll cringe when I hear someone say to me, "That weather... global warming, eh?"
 
MrSquished said:
College/University pricing is out of control in this country. The one thing I find very favorable about getting a college education is that those with one tend to vote smarter. Usually less educated rubes vote for scum like Trump vs the college educated who tend to see through garbage like him. To make a living, I don't think college should be necessary, there are plenty of honorable and great careers without college. However, I almost think it should be required to be a citizen at this point seeing how far we've fallen as a nation.
Click to expand...
Lol the same left that drove up costs to begin with.

Edit: the same left that has us at 22 in the world despite our spending.

Awesome jerb.

Hell, sounds like our military budget, too.
 
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A significant part of the problem is that “guidance counselors” very frequently have no idea what careers are available outside of a traditional college that can earn significantly better than what they make with their masters degree. I’ve ran into several that actually look down upon skilled trades, and regard them as an option only for those that can’t get into college.

I am an example of someone who could have gone to almost any college I wanted to. I was actually accepted into, and attended a year at a current top 25 engineering college (and I was invited to recruiting events at current #1, and was in competition for scholarships at others) I decided to go there as an engineering major, because they had a very specialized program not available anywhere else as an undergraduate, and only offered as a concentration or graduate degree at a handful of universities in the country at the time) I received an academic scholarship, and was in an honors program, after having graduated high school a year early. I was a sophomore there after one semester, and I still wasn’t old enough to vote.

But, I left school for a couple of personal reasons and learned more about working and what I really wanted to do with my life outside of school and, decided to turn my passion for firefighting into a career. The pay was similar to a non-engineering degree to begin with ($30k base almost 20 years ago, $46k to start to $90k top without promoting now) However, through a lot of additional training (some college based and almost all college accredited but taught by other folks who had spent their lives working, not teaching) and several competitive promotions, I make just over ATOT minimum wage ($100,000) as a base salary, with some room to get to $120k base in next couple years. Plus, the option to make significantly more if I work OT. I have averaged an additional 35-50% extra every year putting me on pace to make $150-160k this year, as I’m in a particularly specialized area that needs coverage 24/7 and only 2-3% of the folks in my agency are qualified to do what I do. And I’ll be eligible to retire next summer at 41 years old, making $50k/year (going to about $80k if I stay until 51) for the rest of my life, plus 75-80% of my healthcare paid for until I hit Medicare, then supplemental coverage.

Considering that the above is without student loans, I consider myself pretty financially successful. Could I have made more if I stayed in engineering and put the same effort into working my way up? Absolutely, but I would not have had the same passion for what I do, nor the experiences I’ve had being a firefighter, then paramedic, instructor, etc. I’ve literally met folks whose lives I’ve saved, and received a few awards along the way for making folks undead.... I mean successfully bringing back folks whose heart stopped at home.

But, when I have volunteered to come to my daughter’s school for career day, I was declined by a “guidance counselor” so she could have someone present “with an actual career.” I laughed and asked if she was serious.... she was. I politely explained that it was indeed a career that paid well, with excellent benefits, and she was dumbfounded but couldn’t get past her own ingrained attitude that college was a must, and I didn’t fit that. Despite the fact I was adjunct faculty for the same respected state university I’d attended many years prior, and through that university I also was per diem instructor in two different county school VoTech programs, including the same system she worked for. Interestingly, when my sister who teaches in the same system with a masters degree equivalent recommends me to come into her school for a career day or STEM fair judge, I’m generally extremely well received and asked to come back again. I don’t know if she vouches for me having an actual career, or just mentions I make twice what she does after almost the exact same time at our jobs, once you account for my OT. And they were far from the only guidance counselor I’ve had negative experience with regarding my “career” while interacting with them while working in the school VoTech system. They consider VoTech to be where you put kids that won’t get into college, and the firefighting program as a lower tier choice even among that.

Off my soapbox now....
 
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FirNaTine said:
I make just over ATOT minimum wage ($100,000) as a base salary
Click to expand...

e3nTyK6.gif
 
I would like to add that I know of very few people that work in the trade they got their original education in. And adding to that the number of people I've seen with degrees get surplussed over the past decade from my employer (we're talking tens of thousands of people losing their jobs) one seriously has to question if most fields one can get a degree in are even worth it. And I'll repeat, education is a business, period. They make money off of your hopes and dreams. How shitty is that?
 
I loved college. ..the second time around when I went back in my 30's.
I was in it for the whole "education" aspect and not for "job prep". I was established in my career prior to getting a BS in my field and I went simply because I wanted grow as a person.
In addition to my major, took a variety of courses covering everything from constitutional law to international health systems.

As soon as the we get the kids college situation sorted out, I'm probably going to go back.
Be nice if it were cheaper but I'd rather dump a couple of grand into tuition than dump it into new car or "stuff".
Especially of it was cheaper.
Excuse me now as I start checking some of course catalogs and try and think of a justification why.
 
I really enjoyed college too. Some very interesting classes, enjoyed the challenge, and it opened job opportunities I would not have had otherwise (govt budget). I went to a fairly inexpensive state university (tuition was ~$2,000-2,500 a semester) and even working part time I only racked up $35k in student debt. I believe that some kind of post-HS education is very worthwhile, both for earning potential and for personal edification.
 
FirNaTine said:
But, I left school for a couple of personal reasons and learned more about working and what I really wanted to do with my life outside of school and, decided to turn my passion for firefighting into a career. The pay was similar to a non-engineering degree to begin with ($30k base almost 20 years ago, $46k to start to $90k top without promoting now) However, through a lot of additional training (some college based and almost all college accredited but taught by other folks who had spent their lives working, not teaching) and several competitive promotions, I make just over ATOT minimum wage ($100,000) as a base salary, with some room to get to $120k base in next couple years. Plus, the option to make significantly more if I work OT. I have averaged an additional 35-50% extra every year putting me on pace to make $150-160k this year, as I’m in a particularly specialized area that needs coverage 24/7 and only 2-3% of the folks in my agency are qualified to do what I do. And I’ll be eligible to retire next summer at 41 years old, making $50k/year (going to about $80k if I stay until 51) for the rest of my life, plus 75-80% of my healthcare paid for until I hit Medicare, then supplemental coverage.
Click to expand...

Curiosity, what state are you work in? I have a couple of friends who are FF/IAFF.
 
Honestly I feel bad for folks that do things like go back for a masters and then they come out nowhere near better as far as pay.

I have friends that just got their masters - I guarantee it won't serve them much better if anything. They just for some reason believe that there is this artificial glass-ceiling and if they just get another piece of paper it will be their ticket to mansions and no bill-problems.

Meanwhile I have 2-3x their salaries.



Part of it is also just a lack of understanding of the market. It's one of the reasons I like being in Tax.... You can have all the accounting degrees you want - that still doesn't mean you will be hired in the tax world because they really don't overlap much.
 
highland145 said:
Lol the same left that drove up costs to begin with.

Edit: the same left that has us at 22 in the world despite our spending.

Awesome jerb.

Hell, sounds like our military budget, too.
Click to expand...
Almost unmitigated capitalism has corrupted college. When the only goal is the almighty dollar, you start to lose sense of all other goals, like helping make a better society. Education needs to have some altruism in there as well.

The Patriot Act on Netflix had a good recent episode on the business of higher education these days. And it's fucked.

My point was that something that's gives you the knowledge to better see through demagogues and propaganda, has value in that sense.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
MrSquished said:
Almost unmitigated capitalism has corrupted college. When the only goal is the almighty dollar, you start to lose sense of all other goals, like helping make a better society. Education needs to have some altruism in there as well.

The Patriot Act on Netflix had a good recent episode on the business of higher education these days. And it's fucked.

My point was that something that's gives you the knowledge to better see through demagogues and propaganda, has value in that sense.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
The problem is simple though - we just refuse to address it.

The problem is an over saturation of demand. Plenty of people that aren't qualified for advanced education.. I know it hurts to say that but plenty just aren't up to par for it. Until we admit that (which we won't) we are forever doomed.

Which is essentially the difference between us and other countries. Other countries will tell people they aren't up to par, refuse them entry, and refuse to finance it. Our government gladly opens their purse to anyone with a pulse regardless of how much they don't belong.
 
FirNaTine said:
A significant part of the problem is that “guidance counselors” very frequently have no idea what careers are available outside of a traditional college that can earn significantly better than what they make with their masters degree. I’ve ran into several that actually look down upon skilled trades, and regard them as an option only for those that can’t get into college.

But, when I have volunteered to come to my daughter’s school for career day, I was declined by a “guidance counselor” so she could have someone present “with an actual career.” I laughed and asked if she was serious.... she was. I politely explained that it was indeed a career that paid well, with excellent benefits, and she was dumbfounded but couldn’t get past her own ingrained attitude that college was a must, and I didn’t fit that. Despite the fact I was adjunct faculty for the same respected state university I’d attended many years prior, and through that university I also was per diem instructor in two different county school VoTech programs, including the same system she worked for. Interestingly, when my sister who teaches in the same system with a masters degree equivalent recommends me to come into her school for a career day or STEM fair judge, I’m generally extremely well received and asked to come back again. I don’t know if she vouches for me having an actual career, or just mentions I make twice what she does after almost the exact same time at our jobs, once you account for my OT. And they were far from the only guidance counselor I’ve had negative experience with regarding my “career” while interacting with them while working in the school VoTech system. They consider VoTech to be where you put kids that won’t get into college, and the firefighting program as a lower tier choice even among that.

Off my soapbox now....
Click to expand...

Are fire departments not getting applicants? Outside of volunteer firefighting, it seems like far more than enough people realize how sick career firefighters have it. Get paid to sleep, workout, moonlight, early generous pension, etc. You kidding?

abc7chicago.com

Thousands of applicants take Chicago firefighters entrance exam

Tens of thousands of people are taking the first step this weekend in the application process to become a Chicago firefighter or EMT, the first time the test has been administered since 2006.
abc7chicago.com abc7chicago.com

s0me0nesmind1 said:
The problem is simple though - we just refuse to address it.

The problem is an over saturation of demand. Plenty of people that aren't qualified for advanced education.. I know it hurts to say that but plenty just aren't up to par for it. Until we admit that (which we won't) we are forever doomed.

Which is essentially the difference between us and other countries. Other countries will tell people they aren't up to par, refuse them entry, and refuse to finance it. Our government gladly opens their purse to anyone with a pulse regardless of how much they don't belong.
Click to expand...

It would help if they actually paid for more nursing instructors to close the shortage there, so those rejected wouldn't cross over into other college bound careers in droves. US integration of education and industry is crap, but society also doesn't value trades. Despite what you've said about manual labor, a lot of people are still stuck with dog crap (easily seen just looking at bls.gov) even when there are large shortages. If it was the public sector, they would be rolling in the dough with those kind of shortages.

Why is taking classes necessarily a problem? I met a retired Navy woman in college, and she had over 300 credits (some obviously just credits for Navy stuff but still a considerable amount). She did that all while still being full-time. There are a lot of people people who get up to masters with intent to keep rolling the government dough after retiring from military. The real problem I see is that policy makers refuse to make it flexible.
 
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