LOL, BS CS summa cum laude Um-St. Louis. I've been a full-time software developer (DOS then Windows) since '93 and am currently a lead software developer for Respondus Inc.
"As someone who has only recently graduated college and--i'll self-aggrandizingly mention--who didn't take that particular course of action, i'll submit that college is your best opportunity to learn stuff, and if you pass it up all the grad school in the world won't make up for it."
See, hon', I started with that perception that I would gain intellectual knowledge from college. And I started with that spirit, but as time went on, I realised that I was deceiving myself. The higher education is primarily geared toward those who are there for the certification to visit the real world. If most people were really out for intellectual enrichment, they would major in natural philosophy (Physics, especially theoretical), mathematics, and philosophy. But most are there for a document for [economic class] status and so as to improve their chances of getting higher pay jobs than those without degrees at all.
A true intellect realises that the best learner is self-taught. That's what I learned; and it's enjoyable. It was very enriching when I met professors who perceived things this way and geared their lectures this direction. I usually was very active in such classes and very enthusiastic about contributing. But the average professor didn't give a rat a** about the students. It was the students' jobs to pass their classes.
This brings up something about technology. Once upon a time, some schools such as some in the UC system didn't offer grades at all. (Of course grade was brought up ages ago by a tutor who advised the teacher to come up with a grading system.) Instead, lecturers would evaluate students and students would evaluate the lecturers. This information would be sent out to schools or for other references. But then the whole system was relinquished when they concluded that it was asking too much from the professors. The good thing about such system was that students were not concerned about their grades. As a result, they subconsciously were more active, willing to ask questions and give answers. This resulted in improvements in performances and true learning.
With grades, most people just focus on how to pass a test. I knew friends who were experts with this, even though I knew a lot more than they did by their own admissions.
My advice? Just go to school and work on getting the diploma to help your pay. But for true learning, it can only come from you. Self-taught knowledge is very powerful. You don't need to be in an institution in order to obtain intellectual wisdom. If you choose to do that, then sit back and relax. Don't give a rat a** what grades the teachers give you. And choose professors that you truly can learn from.
That's my view . . . not necessarily an abstract truth.
See, hon', I started with that perception that I would gain intellectual knowledge from college. And I started with that spirit, but as time went on, I realised that I was deceiving myself. The higher education is primarily geared toward those who are there for the certification to visit the real world. If most people were really out for intellectual enrichment, they would major in natural philosophy (Physics, especially theoretical), mathematics, and philosophy. But most are there for a document for [economic class] status and so as to improve their chances of getting higher pay jobs than those without degrees at all.
A true intellect realises that the best learner is self-taught. That's what I learned; and it's enjoyable. It was very enriching when I met professors who perceived things this way and geared their lectures this direction. I usually was very active in such classes and very enthusiastic about contributing. But the average professor didn't give a rat a** about the students. It was the students' jobs to pass their classes.
This brings up something about technology. Once upon a time, some schools such as some in the UC system didn't offer grades at all. (Of course grade was brought up ages ago by a tutor who advised the teacher to come up with a grading system.) Instead, lecturers would evaluate students and students would evaluate the lecturers. This information would be sent out to schools or for other references. But then the whole system was relinquished when they concluded that it was asking too much from the professors. The good thing about such system was that students were not concerned about their grades. As a result, they subconsciously were more active, willing to ask questions and give answers. This resulted in improvements in performances and true learning.
With grades, most people just focus on how to pass a test. I knew friends who were experts with this, even though I knew a lot more than they did by their own admissions.
My advice? Just go to school and work on getting the diploma to help your pay. But for true learning, it can only come from you. Self-taught knowledge is very powerful. You don't need to be in an institution in order to obtain intellectual wisdom. If you choose to do that, then sit back and relax. Don't give a rat a** what grades the teachers give you. And choose professors that you truly can learn from.
That's my view . . . not necessarily an abstract truth.
What's the logic behind your reply? Bill Gates' success doesn't do anything to disprove either that taking college seriously will let you get more out of it, or that taking college seriously will help you have a better career (or more choice in your career path) than if you party and go for the easy Bs.Originally posted by: maladroit
LOL, Bill Gates, drop out, 'nuff said
"
"
Whatever! I knew someone would pick on that statement. Keep quirking. Or are you done quirking?
You show me how many people whose works are being recognised today weren't self-taught, in spite of their attendance of institutions. And before institutions became a norm, people just had private tutors and learned primarily by themselves and with correspondence to help in their progress.
Whatever! I knew someone would pick on that statement. Keep quirking. Or are you done quirking?
You show me how many people whose works are being recognised today weren't self-taught, in spite of their attendance of institutions. And before institutions became a norm, people just had private tutors and learned primarily by themselves and with correspondence to help in their progress.Originally posted by: luvly
""
Whatever! I knew someone would pick on that statement. Keep quirking. Or are you done quirking?
dependence < independence < interdependence
bit unrelated, but same theme:
Steve Jobs- I would give up all my technology just to spend an afternoon with Aristotle
LOL, Bill Gates, drop out, 'nuff said
LOL, you, dumbass, 'nuff said
maybe you are talking to the wrong people, because everybody that i talk to agrees that it never hurts to have high grades, and that if you can achieve them with just a slight amount of effort, you'd have to be an idiot not to. if it's so easy, why not? what things do you have to do that could possibly take up so much time that you can't spend that miniscule amount of time to get an A? and don't bring up bill gates, because instead of putzing around a BBS talking about how grades/degrees don't matter to make himself feel better, he was working his ass off for the reason he dropped out. and notice, he did drop out and start working. he did not stay in school and get mediocre grades, then brag about it.
Originally posted by: gopunk
LOL, Bill Gates, drop out, 'nuff said
LOL, you, dumbass, 'nuff said
maybe you are talking to the wrong people, because everybody that i talk to agrees that it never hurts to have high grades, and that if you can achieve them with just a slight amount of effort, you'd have to be an idiot not to. if it's so easy, why not? what things do you have to do that could possibly take up so much time that you can't spend that miniscule amount of time to get an A? and don't bring up bill gates, because instead of putzing around a BBS talking about how grades/degrees don't matter to make himself feel better, he was working his ass off for the reason he dropped out. and notice, he did drop out and start working. he did not stay in school and get mediocre grades, then brag about it.
Hey, someone get this guy a "jump to conlcusions mat."
You don't know me, I get all A's and B's. I do spend that "miniscule amount of time." My GPA is 3.68. I still think grades aren't all that important.
My point in bringing up Bill Gates (although it is kinda extreme) is to point out that your grades in college aren't the end all/be all of what you will amount to in life.
A degree is a commodity. It's something that you buy. Just like with cars, some degrees cost more and are considered to be of higher quality.
And you can drive from NJ to CA in a Hyundai or a Duesenberg.
Either way you will have gotten to CA.
And you can drive from NJ to CA in a Hyundai or a Duesenberg.
Either way you will have gotten to CA.
Originally posted by: maladroit
Originally posted by: gopunk
LOL, Bill Gates, drop out, 'nuff said
LOL, you, dumbass, 'nuff said
maybe you are talking to the wrong people, because everybody that i talk to agrees that it never hurts to have high grades, and that if you can achieve them with just a slight amount of effort, you'd have to be an idiot not to. if it's so easy, why not? what things do you have to do that could possibly take up so much time that you can't spend that miniscule amount of time to get an A? and don't bring up bill gates, because instead of putzing around a BBS talking about how grades/degrees don't matter to make himself feel better, he was working his ass off for the reason he dropped out. and notice, he did drop out and start working. he did not stay in school and get mediocre grades, then brag about it.
Hey, someone get this guy a "jump to conlcusions mat."
You don't know me, I get all A's and B's. I do spend that "miniscule amount of time." My GPA is 3.68. I still think grades aren't all that important.
My point in bringing up Bill Gates (although it is kinda extreme) is to point out that your grades in college aren't the end all/be all of what you will amount to in life.
i'm sorry if you misunderstood, but i using the word "you" in a rhetorical sense (well, for the second paragraph at least
). i can how this would be confusing, so i apologize. it was not meant to make any statements about your grades/character.your grades are not the end all/be all of what you will amount to in life, but nobody ever said it was. davesimmons was simply saying that people should, instead of just going to college for a degree, take classes that they are interested in and that will improve them. if you'll notice, he stated that the good grades would just follow (and i wholeheartedly agree). i am guessing this was a response to the disturbing attitude taken by some people towards their higher education.
When I was a CS major, I didnt learn jack. I learned about a bunch of numbers and hated it.
I switched to a psych major with phil minor and practically learned the world. To those of you who say you learn nothing in college, you are taking the wrong major. I learned as much outside of college in the dorms than in the classroom, but I cant say what I learned was a waste. There may not be a job waiting for me the second I get out of college, but I'm still glad I switched when I did.
Then again, it seems being a CS major wouldnt be such a good idea nowadays.
I switched to a psych major with phil minor and practically learned the world. To those of you who say you learn nothing in college, you are taking the wrong major. I learned as much outside of college in the dorms than in the classroom, but I cant say what I learned was a waste. There may not be a job waiting for me the second I get out of college, but I'm still glad I switched when I did.
Then again, it seems being a CS major wouldnt be such a good idea nowadays.
I can't believe you guys are still discussing this This thread was a rant out of hatred for finals week and i had to pour it all out. Got my last two math finals today and yes I'm a math major. Did I learn anything this semester? Yes. Do I think I will remember any of this after I graduate? Hardly. Will I apply any of this to my job (teaching)? Very unlikely. I'm not saying I really want to cruise through college as easily as I can. I don't want to be the kind of person who goes through life ignorant as to what is going on. But you can't deny the fact that a lot of college professors have very low expectations from their students. You can say a professor is only there to lecture and not hold your hands. But when it comes to education, and no matter what grade you're in, a student will only perform up to the expectation of the teacher. Debate this all you want but most students could give a rats ass whether or not they have gained knowledge. This is a tech forum so we will inherently see more nerds who care about their education than most that don't. I'm basically saying that college isn't what everyone has hyped it up to be. You goto elementary, middle school, and high school and everyone is always talking about how college is the ultimate goal, or the ultimate solution. It simply is because it's the only way for you to get a degree and not necessarily the right step to gain knowledge for the real world. As stated before, the best knowledge is gained through hands on experience, not a text book and exam.
Disclaimer: I'm generalizing.This does not apply to all schools, majors, or students
This thread was a rant out of hatred for finals week and i had to pour it all out. Got my last two math finals today and yes I'm a math major. Did I learn anything this semester? Yes. Do I think I will remember any of this after I graduate? Hardly. Will I apply any of this to my job (teaching)? Very unlikely. I'm not saying I really want to cruise through college as easily as I can. I don't want to be the kind of person who goes through life ignorant as to what is going on. But you can't deny the fact that a lot of college professors have very low expectations from their students. You can say a professor is only there to lecture and not hold your hands. But when it comes to education, and no matter what grade you're in, a student will only perform up to the expectation of the teacher. Debate this all you want but most students could give a rats ass whether or not they have gained knowledge. This is a tech forum so we will inherently see more nerds who care about their education than most that don't. I'm basically saying that college isn't what everyone has hyped it up to be. You goto elementary, middle school, and high school and everyone is always talking about how college is the ultimate goal, or the ultimate solution. It simply is because it's the only way for you to get a degree and not necessarily the right step to gain knowledge for the real world. As stated before, the best knowledge is gained through hands on experience, not a text book and exam.Disclaimer: I'm generalizing.This does not apply to all schools, majors, or students
I agree that college degree is a certificate that says "i learnt reel gooud".
Some of the smartest friends I have get shitty grades. Some of the dumber ones get awesome grades. I've noticed, in myself and some friends at least, an aura of calm and confidence (perhaps OVER confidence) when it comes to academic. We know we'll pass, and that's good enough.
The other thing that I have noticed is that the smarter people might understand the "why", but not have bothered spending as much time memorizing the "how". Whereas others seem to know "how" like the back of their hands, but have zero clue as to "why". And since exams are usually best at testing "how", well...
dfi
Some of the smartest friends I have get shitty grades. Some of the dumber ones get awesome grades. I've noticed, in myself and some friends at least, an aura of calm and confidence (perhaps OVER confidence) when it comes to academic. We know we'll pass, and that's good enough.
The other thing that I have noticed is that the smarter people might understand the "why", but not have bothered spending as much time memorizing the "how". Whereas others seem to know "how" like the back of their hands, but have zero clue as to "why". And since exams are usually best at testing "how", well...
dfi
Personally, all my professors have actually cared.
Then again I am studying ENg. so its hard.
A lot of my business friends have it easy though....
Then again I am studying ENg. so its hard.
A lot of my business friends have it easy though....
I just noticed. You're from Dansville, NY?
What makes a degree worth something is what kind of degree and what school(s) you went to, to get it. And finally, why is everyone so satisfied with getting a B for doing nothing? Why not do something to make yourself proud and earn an A?
I think hell would have to freeze over if I ever goto grad school. If you're going to grad school then that means most likely you're heading for a career that would require you to keep up with the field. Thus, you have to take leave at your job and take some more classes throughout your career. I know this is especially true for the medical field. Like hell I'm gonna goto school again after I graduate!!!!!!!!
See, hon', I started with that perception that I would gain intellectual knowledge from college. And I started with that spirit, but as time went on, I realised that I was deceiving myself. The higher education is primarily geared toward those who are there for the certification to visit the real world. If most people were really out for intellectual enrichment, they would major in natural philosophy (Physics, especially theoretical), mathematics, and philosophy. But most are there for a document for [economic class] status and so as to improve their chances of getting higher pay jobs than those without degrees at all.
A true intellect realises that the best learner is self-taught.
depends on your major; depends on your school. major in history and spend all your time reading and writing papers on "a topic of your own choice" and always having somebody who knows a buttload more than you do who can confirm your suspicions and point you in the right direction is certainly helpful.
to use an example--many at my school (chicago) were econ majors, but the econ department was a machine that pumped people out for money.
same with every business school in the country. but you acutally had to learn stuff if you wanted to have a real major. So the people with real majors laughed at the econ majors, and the econ majors laughed at everybody else, etc etc etc.
anyway, it never hurts to learn stuff, and as long as you're paying out the butt to go to a place to learn stuff you might as well, because some day you'll meet a shmuck like me and it'll come in handy.
A true intellect realises that the best learner is self-taught.
depends on your major; depends on your school. major in history and spend all your time reading and writing papers on "a topic of your own choice" and always having somebody who knows a buttload more than you do who can confirm your suspicions and point you in the right direction is certainly helpful.
to use an example--many at my school (chicago) were econ majors, but the econ department was a machine that pumped people out for money.
same with every business school in the country. but you acutally had to learn stuff if you wanted to have a real major. So the people with real majors laughed at the econ majors, and the econ majors laughed at everybody else, etc etc etc.
anyway, it never hurts to learn stuff, and as long as you're paying out the butt to go to a place to learn stuff you might as well, because some day you'll meet a shmuck like me and it'll come in handy.
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