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Coin flip not random

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
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Link

This is adapted from David E. Adler's book Snap Judgment, published this month by FT Press.

Coin tosses are a classic metaphor in economics for randomness. For instance, in his book about market efficiency, A Random Walk Down Wall Street, economist Burton Malkiel compares the price movements of the stock market to the random outcome of a flipped coin: "ometimes one gets positive price changes for several days in a row; but sometimes when you are flipping a coin you also get a long string of ?heads' in a row." According to Malkiel, mathematicians' terms for the sequences of numbers produced by any random process?in this case a coin flip?is known as a random walk. To him, this is exactly what stock price movements look like; hence the title of his book.

Similarly, Nassim Taleb, in Fooled by Randomness, points out that the seemingly amazing success of money managers at beating the market is often best explained by pure chance. Randomness alone could easily explain why any one manager could do well for several years in a row. Instead, people misperceive patterns in what are, in fact, purely random sequences, akin to the outcomes of a coin flip. And as everyone knows, coin flips produce "heads and tails with 50% odds each."

Lately, the idea of randomness in stock market prices has come under attack; prices for individual stocks (but not the market on the whole) often show small momentum effects: Stocks that go up tend to keep going up, and stocks that are going down tend to keep going down. But the metaphor of a coin flip for randomness remains unquestioned. We use coin tosses to settle disputes and decide outcomes because we believe they are unbiased with 50-50 odds.

Yet recent research into coin flips has discovered that the laws of mechanics determine the outcome of coin tosses: The startling finding is they aren't random. Instead, for natural flips, the chance of a coin coming up on the same side as it started is about 51 percent. Heads facing up predicts heads; tails facing up predicts tails.

Three academics?Persi Diaconis, Susan Holmes, and Richard Montgomery?through vigorous analysis made an interesting discovery at Stanford University. As they note in their published results, "Dynamical Bias in the Coin Toss," laws of mechanics govern coin flips, meaning, "their flight is determined by their initial conditions."

The physics?and math?behind this discovery are very complex. But some of the basic ideas are simple: If the force of the flip is the same, the outcome is the same. To understand more about flips, the academics built a coin-tossing machine and filmed it using a slow-motion camera. This confirmed that the outcome of flips isn't random. The machine could make the toss come out heads every time.

When people, rather than a machine, flipped the coin, results were less predictable, but there was still a slight physical bias favoring the position the coin started in. If the coin started heads up, then it would land heads up 51 percent of the time. Part of the reason real flips are less certain isn't just that the force of the flip can vary; it's that coins flipped by humans tend to rotate around several axes at once. Flipped coins tumble over and over, but they also spin around and around, like pizza dough being twirled. This spinning around is technically known as "precession." The greater the precession in a flip, the more unpredictable the outcome.

I spoke to Holmes, a statistician at Stanford, about her research. She told me that when most people hear about this weird finding, they think it has something to do with the density of the coin, but she was able to disprove this by constructing a coin made out of balsa wood on one face and metal on the other. This made no difference to the flips. The dynamics of the coin flip, and its outcome, aren't determined by the lack of balance in the coin but instead by the physics of spinning and flipping.

The true laws of coin tosses show yet again the inadequacy of our intuition (as well as the flawed metaphors favored by economists). We are indeed fooled by randomness. But we are also fooled by nearly random processes that look random, even if they aren't, because the differences are too subtle for us to notice. And hence we continue to use coin flips as a figure of speech but also in real life, particularly in gambling and professional sports.

I asked Holmes if coin flips used for, say, football, should be eliminated because they are biased. She pointed out that there is no reason to change the way the coin flip is done, as long as the person calling the flip doesn't know how the coin is going to start out. In football, the tosser is never the caller; the tosser is supposed to be a referee. But if you are both the caller and the tosser ... well, that changes things. Knowing about the bias in coin tosses give you an edge, albeit a tiny one.

Holmes admits she still uses the metaphor of a coin toss in her statistics class at Stanford all the time?after all, the randomness in a coin toss is off only very, very slightly, with odds being 51-49. But certain people, when they flip a coin, can make it come out heads (or tails) 100 percent of the time. Diaconis, Holmes' co-author and husband, is one of the people with this amazing talent. Before becoming a mathematician, he was a professional magician. Among his proofs is that it requires a full seven shuffles to truly randomize a deck of cards. He was admitted to graduate school at Harvard University after two of his card tricks were published in Scientific American.

So how exactly is Diaconis able to make a coin toss come out a certain way? Susan Holmes won't tell me: "It comes from his previous career-it's magic."


Wait, so you mean to tell me that if you introduce a nonrandom element like skill into a random system that the result is nonrandom as well? Wow, I never would have thought so. How much money did someone waste testing that?
 

HopJokey

Platinum Member
May 6, 2005
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It's 50-50 though because of the unseen principle. You don't know if it starts out heads or tails to begin with.
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
5
81
Originally posted by: sactoking
Wait, so you mean to tell me that if you introduce a nonrandom element like skill into a random system that the result is nonrandom as well? Wow, I never would have thought so. How much money did someone waste testing that?

Did you even read the article you posted? A coin has a 51% chance of landing with same face up as the initial face, before introducing skill into the equation.

And yeah, as long as the person calling the coin doesn't know which side begins facing up, it's still random.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,648
2,924
136
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Did you even read the article you posted? A coin has a 51% chance of landing with same face up as the initial face, before introducing skill into the equation.

And yeah, as long as the person calling the coin doesn't know which side begins facing up, it's still random.

Because the result is corrupted by another nonrandom element: human error. The "natural" flips that set the 51% baseline still contain a subconscious muscle memory. If you take a truly random flip that contains a truly random and unknown amount of force behind it the result will be random.
 

Arcadio

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2007
5,637
24
81
I knew that. That's why I use random.org every time I need a random event instead of a coin flip.
 

mundane

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2002
5,603
8
81
Originally posted by: Arcadio
I knew that. That's why I use random.org every time I need a random event instead of a coin flip.

Okay, I'll bite. Why would you need a random number in your daily life?
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
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Originally posted by: mundane
Originally posted by: Arcadio
I knew that. That's why I use random.org every time I need a random event instead of a coin flip.
Okay, I'll bite. Why would you need a random number in your daily life?
Fake phone number
 

Arcadio

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2007
5,637
24
81
Originally posted by: mundane
Originally posted by: Arcadio
I knew that. That's why I use random.org every time I need a random event instead of a coin flip.

Okay, I'll bite. Why would you need a random number in your daily life?

I'm a Computer Scientist. Need I say more?


Actually, I do need to say more: I flipped a virtual coin at random.org to determine whether I should reply to your post or not.
 

mundane

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2002
5,603
8
81
Originally posted by: Arcadio
Originally posted by: mundane
Originally posted by: Arcadio
I knew that. That's why I use random.org every time I need a random event instead of a coin flip.

Okay, I'll bite. Why would you need a random number in your daily life?

I'm a Computer Scientist. Need I say more?


Actually, I do need to say more: I flipped a virtual coin at random.org to determine whether I should reply to your post or not.

Wouldn't you need *much* more than a coin toss for your random seed?
 

Arcadio

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2007
5,637
24
81
Originally posted by: mundane
Originally posted by: Arcadio
Originally posted by: mundane
Originally posted by: Arcadio
I knew that. That's why I use random.org every time I need a random event instead of a coin flip.

Okay, I'll bite. Why would you need a random number in your daily life?

I'm a Computer Scientist. Need I say more?


Actually, I do need to say more: I flipped a virtual coin at random.org to determine whether I should reply to your post or not.

Wouldn't you need *much* more than a coin toss for your random seed?

Yes. I use random.org to generate seeds as well. BTW, if I don't answer to one of your questions is because the random.org coin flip came up tails.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Originally posted by: mundane
Wouldn't you need *much* more than a coin toss for your random seed?
Stand by for pseudo-random seed...

fapfapfap....

:shocked:


 

Epic Fail

Diamond Member
May 10, 2005
6,252
2
0
Originally posted by: Arcadio
Originally posted by: mundane
Originally posted by: Arcadio
Originally posted by: mundane
Originally posted by: Arcadio
I knew that. That's why I use random.org every time I need a random event instead of a coin flip.

Okay, I'll bite. Why would you need a random number in your daily life?

I'm a Computer Scientist. Need I say more?


Actually, I do need to say more: I flipped a virtual coin at random.org to determine whether I should reply to your post or not.

Wouldn't you need *much* more than a coin toss for your random seed?

Yes. I use random.org to generate seeds as well. BTW, if I don't answer to one of your questions is because the random.org coin flip came up tails.

Quick, someone hack random.org so it only flip tails from now on.
 

SunSamurai

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2005
3,914
0
0
What the hell? Coins arnt separate from the laws of nature?

But... they are COINS.
 
Oct 27, 2007
17,009
5
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Originally posted by: SunSamurai
What the hell? Coins arnt separate from the laws of nature?

But... they are COINS.

Read the full article, that's not the point. The main conclusion here is that when human beings flip coins, the outcome isn't random. Traditionally we have assumed that the outcome should be essentially random due to chaos theory - small differences in the initial conditions lead to large variations in how the coin behaves. This article shows that this doesn't lead to true randomness.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Originally posted by: HopJokey
It's 50-50 though because of the unseen principle. You don't know if it starts out heads or tails to begin with.

yep, all we need know is for someone to start posting the statistics of the door selection for the full trifecta here.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: mundane
Originally posted by: Arcadio
I knew that. That's why I use random.org every time I need a random event instead of a coin flip.
Okay, I'll bite. Why would you need a random number in your daily life?
Fake phone number

I've been using python's random class to generate a random number whenever I needed one. Generally for choosing maps in multiplayer games.

I use an electronic dice roller (LEDs that light up) that I made for general random decisions throughout my life. It doesn't really give random output though.