Coakley-Brown Senate Race in Mass on Jan. 19 - Dems could 60 seat Majority !

[spidey07]

I have to agree the this Senate race is not going to be any kind of national referendum.
Credit where credit is due, Brown is the better campaigner, and seems to have more of the charisma Cockley lacks.

And given the plethora of polls, this election will be a fingernail biter.

But regardless of how this election turns out, the Dems will not have the unity to utilize their super majority if Cockley wins, and regardless if Brown wins or not, the R's will still stand for nothing but grid lock.

Regardless of how its cut, spun, and propagandized, the can will still be kicked down the road to the definitive election of 11/2010.

Because I am not a Massachusetts voter, I must stand on the sidelines and watch. But come the election of 11/2010, I plan to vote my disgust with both parties. But I reserve most of my disgust with the GOP who now stands for gridlock at any cost.

Yes, please stand on the sidelines.

WE have been called to action and we, the people of the United States of America are acting. We are stopping the obama agenda. We The People are wide awake now.

 

[nick1985]

It's pretty hilarious watching Rachel Maddow try to spin this coming election!

I wonder what that idiot keith olbermann has to say about it

 

[fskimospy]

Right, and all of those people who know SS needs to be reformed but didnt like Bush's push forgot in 06 as well. Passing a bill 50% of the people dont like is a sure fire way to get booted from office. You'd think the Dems could learn from their 94 implosion.

Passing a bill that 50% of people don't like absolutely isn't a sure fire way to get booted from office, it would all depend on why they didn't like it. Again, if liberals are mad at the bill for not being liberal enough, and the Republicans are claiming they will run on repealing the bill I can't see it affecting either voter preference or turnout.

A significant reason the Democrats lost in 94 was exactly because they FAILED to pass a bill. They most certainly have learned from that mistake, which is a big reason why a bill will be passed here. That's why the legislative logic is so simple here. Passing nothing is worse than passing what we have currently, therefore it will almost certainly be passed. The end.

 

[Vic]

Brown up by 9....
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/01/coakley_brown_t.html

bump

That article says they're in a dead heat at 48-48%... :\

 

[Double Trouble]

I have to agree the this Senate race is not going to be any kind of national referendum.
Credit where credit is due, Brown is the better campaigner, and seems to have more of the charisma Cockley lacks.

And given the plethora of polls, this election will be a fingernail biter.

But regardless of how this election turns out, the Dems will not have the unity to utilize their super majority if Cockley wins, and regardless if Brown wins or not, the R's will still stand for nothing but grid lock.

Regardless of how its cut, spun, and propagandized, the can will still be kicked down the road to the definitive election of 11/2010.

Because I am not a Massachusetts voter, I must stand on the sidelines and watch. But come the election of 11/2010, I plan to vote my disgust with both parties. But I reserve most of my disgust with the GOP who now stands for gridlock at any cost.

You think gridlock is a bad thing, I believe it's a good thing. Most of the time, gridlock in DC is all that keeps DC from further screwing up the country. I'm hoping for gridlock all the way, that's pretty much the best case scenario to come out of DC, no matter which party is in power.

 

[Double Trouble]

Passing a bill that 50% of people don't like absolutely isn't a sure fire way to get booted from office, it would all depend on why they didn't like it. Again, if liberals are mad at the bill for not being liberal enough, and the Republicans are claiming they will run on repealing the bill I can't see it affecting either voter preference or turnout.

A significant reason the Democrats lost in 94 was exactly because they FAILED to pass a bill. They most certainly have learned from that mistake, which is a big reason why a bill will be passed here. That's why the legislative logic is so simple here. Passing nothing is worse than passing what we have currently, therefore it will almost certainly be passed. The end.

Yeah, that's your reasoning, but it's far from clear that your assumptions are correct. Blue dogs and other moderates are the ones who are gambling their seats on this issue, and I'm pretty sure they are not very comfortable right now. The dems might still ram this turd through, but hopefully they are going to pay a heavy price for it.

Heck, I'm about as jaded as it gets when it comes to politics, I think the two sides are pretty much different varieties of scum... This year, for the first time, I'm going to donate a significant amount of money and my time/involvement. I'm tired of sitting around complaining about the idiots, it's time to make sure the dems don't get a supermajority again.

 

[Vic]

Yes, please stand on the sidelines.

WE have been called to action and we, the people of the United States of America are acting. We are stopping the obama agenda. We The People are wide awake now.

Dave... is that you?

 

[Vic]

Ok, so if in the bluest of all blue states the public is still against this health care bill, you can only imagine how much the rest of hte country is opposed to it. People like Nelson etc have to be sweating it, they know their constituents are pissed.

That's because no one knows what's in this health care bill besides what a biased, lazy, and dishonest media tell them. Hell, most people still think they're really are death panels, even though that was the stupidest fabrication ever. So I wouldn't describe constituents so much as 'pissed' though as they have been driven to irrational fear by the blatant lies of the media they thought they could trust (but should have known better).

The sad/funny is that the health care bill doesn't do anything or contain anything. It's a joke, a distraction. Gridlock works even without parties apparently. But here's what happens next: the bill does nothing/doesn't get passed/rots in the courts for years, our existing sick care system continues falling to pieces, but the Pubs make sure to blame the Dems for the ever-skyrocketing price of health care come 2012.

 

[fskimospy]

Yeah, that's your reasoning, but it's far from clear that your assumptions are correct. Blue dogs and other moderates are the ones who are gambling their seats on this issue, and I'm pretty sure they are not very comfortable right now. The dems might still ram this turd through, but hopefully they are going to pay a heavy price for it.

Heck, I'm about as jaded as it gets when it comes to politics, I think the two sides are pretty much different varieties of scum... This year, for the first time, I'm going to donate a significant amount of money and my time/involvement. I'm tired of sitting around complaining about the idiots, it's time to make sure the dems don't get a supermajority again.

What assumptions of mine do you think are incorrect? This poll shows that a substantial portion of health care opposition is from those who think the bill should be more liberal: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/in-polls-much-opposition-to-health-care.html

If you count them in (and I think it is reasonable to do so), you get a plurality in favor of the Democrats' approach, at least as compared to the alternative. As for the Democrats getting the boot in '94 due to their failures to pass substantive legislation, that's pretty well accepted. Do you disagree?

I guess if there's anything that I take out of this it's that I wish the Democrats were an actual liberal/leftist party. This health care bill is far too centrist for my liking and so my response would be an effort to pull the Democrats to the left so they actually represent the left, and not a centrist party as they are now.

If we had 60 actual liberals in Congress we could have passed a health care bill that could have brought the US into the first world in terms of our health care system, now we'll have to do it incrementally.

 

[umbrella39]

*cry* finger point BLAME BUSH BLAME BUSH *cry* finger point BLAME BUSH BLAME BUSH

Really, STILL doing that?

Are YOU STILL pretending that the agenda that needed stopping didn't already get stopped last November, resoundingly? LMFAO. It's not my fault the sidelines has a new cheerleader.

 

[umbrella39]

Dave... is that you?

Isn't it hilarious how they have become what they hate. Most of them. There was only ONE Dave FFS.

 

[sciwizam]

That article says they're in a dead heat at 48-48%... :\

The Boston Globe fucks around with their articles after publishing them, as soon as the comments start lambasting the paper for what a shill it is for the Dems. They continue to "massage" the article more vigorously and the comments section goes crazy and the cycle continues till what is presented in the article doesn't resemble reality.

He's talking about the Politico poll, the most recent one, here

Take a look at all the recent polls that came out and wonder why they chose to mention that specific poll.

 

[ProfJohn]

It's really not. The approve/disapprove is about 10 points against it on average according to RCP: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

As has been talked about before quite a bit of that disapproval is from liberals like me who want a MORE progressive bill, from them the complaint is that we will need another bill like this on top of this one to get the way the US does health care to compete with the rest of the first world. It's highly unlikely that they would be angry at the passage of this bill, they would just want more tacked on later.

A 10% margin in this country is HUGE!!!!!! If you don't recognize that then you are lying to yourself.

Obama's won in 2008 with only a 7% margin.
Clinton won in 1996 with a less than 9% margin.
Since Eisenhower left office there have only been 3 presidential elections won by greater than 10 point. That is 3 out of 13 and all three of those victories were for second terms.

In house elections you have to go all the way back to 1982 to find one party winning with a 10% margin.

 

[Carmen813]

And Presidential elections correspond to legislation how exactly?

 

[ProfJohn]

Hell, most people still think they're really are death panels,

There actually ARE death panels in the plan, they just aren't called that.

There are death panels in ANY kind of insurance plan government or private. Without them costs would go through the roof.

If your 100 year old grandma needed a $100,000 operation in order to extend her life 6 months do you think the government would pay for it?? Perhaps you should look at what happens in England.

The Democrats have already set up a "Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research" whose goal is to establish a cost vs. benefit analysis for various types of treatments and procedures. The long term goal is to reduce expenses by limiting risky or expensive procedures that may not provide good long term outcomes.

 

[ProfJohn]

And Presidential elections correspond to legislation how exactly?

Look at public opinion polls. Very seldom will you find a 10 point margin on yes/no types of questions.

Legalizing pot has 6-8 margin in recent polls.
Pro-life/pro-choice is generally within 6 points.

For the public to be for or against anything by 10 points in pretty substantial.

 

[Patranus]

He's talking about the Politico poll, the most recent one, here

Take a look at all the recent polls that came out and wonder why they chose to mention that specific poll.

LOL @ the Daily Kos/R2000

 

[Xellos2099]

There actually ARE death panels in the plan, they just aren't called that.

There are death panels in ANY kind of insurance plan government or private. Without them costs would go through the roof.

If your 100 year old grandma needed a $100,000 operation in order to extend her life 6 months do you think the government would pay for it?? Perhaps you should look at what happens in England.

The Democrats have already set up a "Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research" whose goal is to establish a cost vs. benefit analysis for various types of treatments and procedures. The long term goal is to reduce expenses by limiting risky or expensive procedures that may not provide good long term outcomes.

Exactly, also IF US went single payer's model and decide that you won't get certain kind of treatment for whatever reason, you are royally screw since you won't be allow to pay for it on your own.

 

[Double Trouble]

That's because no one knows what's in this health care bill besides what a biased, lazy, and dishonest media tell them. Hell, most people still think they're really are death panels, even though that was the stupidest fabrication ever. So I wouldn't describe constituents so much as 'pissed' though as they have been driven to irrational fear by the blatant lies of the media they thought they could trust (but should have known better).

The sad/funny is that the health care bill doesn't do anything or contain anything. It's a joke, a distraction. Gridlock works even without parties apparently. But here's what happens next: the bill does nothing/doesn't get passed/rots in the courts for years, our existing sick care system continues falling to pieces, but the Pubs make sure to blame the Dems for the ever-skyrocketing price of health care come 2012.

Ok, you blame the media for not providing enough information on the actual contents of the bill. How exactly can they know what is really in the bill when the reality is that half of congress has not even read the monstrosity, and that the dems have done just about everything possible to keep it under wraps and keep discussions behind closed doors? It's a steaming pile of crap, and everyone knows it. The dems have just painted themselves in a corner, staking everything on this bill passing, so much so that they are willing to pass anything just to say that they passed it.

 

[StageLeft]

Something poetic I think in a state that has tried an alternative approach, generally does not like it (only about 1/3rd of MA residents say their system is a success) and it getting the de facto decision to make on whether the federal legislation goes through unchecked or gets hacked at the knees via reconciliation. Not that they're voting for the same thing but it's fun nonetheless.

 

[Double Trouble]

What assumptions of mine do you think are incorrect? This poll shows that a substantial portion of health care opposition is from those who think the bill should be more liberal: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/in-polls-much-opposition-to-health-care.html

The fact that someone is against it because it doesn't go far enough doesn't change the fact that they're against it. Come election time, they aren't going to be thrilled and energized because that bill was passed. You'd better believe that the other side IS going to be energized and that the independents are are against this bill by a wide margin. That spells political danger for any moderate dem.

As for the Democrats getting the boot in '94 due to their failures to pass substantive legislation, that's pretty well accepted. Do you disagree?

No, I don't think the general public votes on anything that specific. The average person doesn't know how many pieces of legislation have been passed etc, they don't care. The dems got swept out on a wave of discontent with congress, with the other side making wonderful promises of cleaning things up and righting the ship. We all know that was BS of course, but that's what the public believed.

If we had 60 actual liberals in Congress we could have passed a health care bill that could have brought the US into the first world in terms of our health care system, now we'll have to do it incrementally.

If you had 60 actual liberals, they would not have been voted into office to begin with. Do you really think Nebraska voters would want to vote for some hard core leftist? Virginia? Ohio? Get real. The public doesn't want extremes on either side, and there's nothing wrong with compromise to get things done.

 

[MotF Bane]

Polls have now been open for just over 90 minutes. Polls from Gardner, Fitchburg, and Peabody are showing as much as double-digit leads for Brown. Bell weather models are also indicating Brown. Coakley was sighted at her Medford polling place; North Andover High was backed up for half a mile between being a polling place and a school. Per a less politically reputable radio station, ACORN is rumored to be coming soon, and there are an estimated 100,000 dead on the voter rolls. It is actively snowing in the Boston area, if you believe that will have an effect.

 

[Painman]

Who should I vote for? The current Healthcare bill makes me wanna vomit, but so does State Sen. Brown.

Actually... really, WTF do I care about the current HealthCare bill? It means nothing much to me... I already have to pay a private Health Insurance co. (by force of law) for Jack Shit... Thanks, Mitt.

Wat... I'm supposed to vote Republican, for my OWN Senator, in order to save y'all from the same fate, that was dreamed up in the first freaking place... by a REPUBLICAN?!??!?!

To Hell with you people.

You want me to save you from Fascism... but you honest-to-god think I'm actually in a position to save you from Socialism...

...Wow.

Gov't mandates that make you buy a Private sector product? With an arbitrary income cutoff (decided by Gov't) to determine if you can actually afford it? Yes, maybe I should vote in order to make y'all eat the very same worse-than-tasteless Corporate Hot Dog that I have to swallow, every single day.

That is Fascism.

Mussolini would ejaculate in his grave.

Doesn't matter. I can vote Pub or Dem... at the end of the day, I still have to eat the same disgusting Hot Dog from the MA Lege Sausage Works on a Coney Bun from Market Basket.

And at the end of the day... I still don't give a fark about the other 49.

Wanna know why this election is a toss-up?

It makes the entire state wanna puke... That's why.

 

[PokerGuy]

Polls have now been open for just over 90 minutes. Polls from Gardner, Fitchburg, and Peabody are showing as much as double-digit leads for Brown. Bell weather models are also indicating Brown. Coakley was sighted at her Medford polling place; North Andover High was backed up for half a mile between being a polling place and a school. Per a less politically reputable radio station, ACORN is rumored to be coming soon, and there are an estimated 100,000 dead on the voter rolls. It is actively snowing in the Boston area, if you believe that will have an effect.

No doubt the democrat political machine and ACORN are preparing all sorts of wonderful tricks to make sure the election goes the way it's supposed to, just like they did in MN.

 

[MotF Bane]

Who should I vote for? The current Healthcare bill makes me wanna vomit, but so does State Sen. Brown.

Actually... really, WTF do I care about the current HealthCare bill? It means nothing much to me... I already have to pay a private Health Insurance co. (by force of law) for Jack Shit... Thanks, Mitt.

Wat... I'm supposed to vote Republican, for my OWN Senator, in order to save y'all from the same fate, that was dreamed up in the first freaking place... by a REPUBLICAN?!??!?!

To Hell with you people.

You want me to save you from Fascism... but you honest-to-god think I'm actually in a position to save you from Socialism...

...Wow.

Gov't mandates that make you buy a Private sector product? With an arbitrary income cutoff (decided by Gov't) to determine if you can actually afford it? Yes, maybe I should vote in order to make y'all eat the very same worse-than-tasteless Corporate Hot Dog that I have to swallow, every single day.

That is Fascism.

Mussolini would ejaculate in his grave.

Doesn't matter. I can vote Pub or Dem... at the end of the day, I still have to eat the same disgusting Hot Dog from the MA Lege Sausage Works on a Coney Bun from Market Basket.

And at the end of the day... I still don't give a fark about the other 49.

Wanna know why this election is a toss-up?

It makes the entire state wanna puke... That's why.

Kennedy!