CNN: Nuclear program components unearthed in Iraq

[Alistar7]

Obviously Saddam had clearly complied and not only abandoned his nuclear ambitions, but willingly declared all material and provided positive proof of their destruction as required to end UN inspections and sanctions.


(We should have listened to the French in 96 when they began clamoring for and end to it all, he would be up and running today.....)

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Obviously Saddam had clearly complied and not only abandoned his nuclear ambitions, but willingly declared all material and provided positive proof of their destruction as required to end UN inspections and sanctions.


(We should have listened to the French in 96 when they began clamoring for and end to it all, he would be up and running today.....)

Yeah, he forgot about the one under Bush


Good thing we never lose track of things, eh?

Oh, was this the evidence Bush knew about before the Invasion?

 

[Alistar7]

nope, this is just further proof of Saddam's compliance and points out how wrong our assessment was that he continued to hold onto the technology required to produce them, even nuclear.....

Find me one nations intel agency that did not think Saddam still had WMD.....

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
nope, this is just further proof of Saddam's compliance and points out how wrong our assessment was that he continued to hold onto the technology required to produce them, even nuclear.....

Find me one nations intel agency that did not think Saddam still had WMD.....

This shows that Saddam is a liar. That is all. But we knew that already and no-one ever doubted it.

Andy

 

[Alistar7]

If he lied , then he never destroyed all of his WMD as he claimed, maybe that's why he had no verifiable evidence, maybe why that's exactly what was required.

Bush claimed Saddam still had a nuclear program, maybe it's because these materials were never declared or destroyed? Considering Saddam's past what would you assume if you knew this stuff existed, but had no idea where it was, probably that he hid it hoping to use it secretely, or sometime down the line.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
nope, this is just further proof of Saddam's compliance and points out how wrong our assessment was that he continued to hold onto the technology required to produce them, even nuclear.....

Find me one nations intel agency that did not think Saddam still had WMD.....

The CIA had real questions about the significance of Saddams programs and WMDs. Yes I know about the 2002 Tenet approved report. I am talking about the majority of senior analysts before Cheney got ahold of the Agency.

 

[Alistar7]

and I am findign a ton of links to inside admin officials claiming things were strecthed, massaged, etc.. I could argue the other side of this better than most here, how sad....



Like my new thread about Canada and WMD?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
and I am findign a ton of links to inside admin officials claiming things were strecthed, massaged, etc.. I could argue the other side of this better than most here, how sad....



Like my new thread about Canada and WMD?

You might be better at arguing, but I am in a better position to be knowing BTW, I replied in the Canada thread.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
If he lied , then he never destroyed all of his WMD as he claimed, maybe that's why he had no verifiable evidence, maybe why that's exactly what was required.

Or maybe he did destroy them, or put them beyond use, or they are in a state of neglect brought about by sanctions such that they are useless? Yes, he's a liar - but that doesn't mean everything he says is a 100% untruth (I'm not acting as a character reference here - just saying what I think is logical).

The thing is, "we knew" he had vast quantities of WMD. Not just from the accounting dept of the UN weapons inspectors - but supposedly from our own sources. These are a real and imminent threat to us. This is why we must detsroy him and his regime. Well, I've seen no evidence to back that up yet either. Certainly not justified by a 12 year old centrifuge.

Bush claimed Saddam still had a nuclear program, maybe it's because these materials were never declared or destroyed? Considering Saddam's past what would you assume if you knew this stuff existed, but had no idea where it was, probably that he hid it hoping to use it secretely, or sometime down the line.

When someone claims Iraq has a nuclear program - I expect pictures of installations like I've seen in Iran. Reactors. Buildings. Projects. Stockpiles. Not buried treasure So far the centrifuge is only thing that could remotely be linked to this (aluminum tubes being vetoed by the atomic weapons inspectors) and it was buried 12 years ago!

I would expect that Saddam hid things - certainly. I am not convinced he had huge stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons to hand that threatened all of us. I was unimpressed by the reasoning and evidence given for that war (which I thought would have probably occured anyway given the better reasoning I prefer) and am distincly unimpressed now that not one cronie in the whole of Iraq, a spy satellite, an intel agent or a disgruntled ex-employee can lead us to such a stockpile as of now.

But you know my arguments by now - which I why I don't post on these issues much anymore, because I just repeat myself to people who already know what I'm going to say..

Cheers

Andy

 

[Alistar7]

I would like to see Saddam and his two sons captured, after that there is no reason not to talk.

Clearly there are WMD unaccounted for, forget our intel, just go by UN reports. I would suggest that is the larger problem, not whether intel was dressed up to make it look sexy, but apparently Canada is a WMD supermarket so why bother worrying about where those ones wound up....

 

[Moonbeam]

But Hay, don't VP selects always make repeated visits to CIA to demand certain types of reports? I thought that was SOP.

The weapons were never an issue, only their theoretical presence as a pretext for preemptive war. That's why you never ever allow a country to attack preemptively. There is always a justification if there is an advantage. The Bush Admin has lead our country into sin. We have become what we feared. First our democracy was subverted by a coup and now an illegal war. Bush is a disaster. He has besmirched our national dignity. He has put us on the dark side using the names of light and truth. He has buried the Axe of Evil in the heart of Iraq.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Well M, I certainly agree with your sentiment and what was done in Iraq.

As far as how the Agency works...

For purposes of this discussion let's limit it to 3 levels. Senior Analysts, the Director, and the Executive branch.


Senior Analysts are just that. One may be expert in NK affairs. He may in fact know just about everything there is to know, but never, never ask "So what should we do about NK?" You get a response (as someone related on radio the other day) of "I don't do policy" He cannot afford to, as it would cloud a very hard to acquire objectivity. Now the Director is a political hack. His job it to run the Agency, but to what end? That depends on the Director and the Administration at the time. Most often, they are benign as far as tampering goes, but occasionally someone like Cheney goes to him (who also in this case happens to be a friend of the Bush family) and tells him quite plainly what a public report is to contain. Well if the Director has the balls, he resists to the point of quitting. If not, he pressures the analysts (who do not like this much) to become enlightened to the realities of politics. In other words the Director pressures the Analysts to lose their objectivity to promote a particular POV. Surprisingly this is very difficult for someone even like Cheney to do. Most would tell the VP to fsck off, and screw consequences. However there are always ways to form little groups of pliable individuals and use their results. The Director then spins the selected data into something like the 2002 report. Unfortunately, this has happened in the past, but not to the degree it is now. I have often thought that the analysts ought to appoint a director and be confirmed by Congress. This removes the Agency (to some degree at least) from political pressure, and provides candidates who are qualified rather than obedient.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But Hay, don't VP selects always make repeated visits to CIA to demand certain types of reports? I thought that was SOP.

The weapons were never an issue, only their theoretical presence as a pretext for preemptive war. That's why you never ever allow a country to attack preemptively. There is always a justification if there is an advantage. The Bush Admin has lead our country into sin. We have become what we feared. First our democracy was subverted by a coup and now an illegal war. Bush is a disaster. He has besmirched our national dignity. He has put us on the dark side using the names of light and truth. He has buried the Axe of Evil in the heart of Iraq.

The weapons were never an issue, the UN never saw the need for inspections to continue, why look for something you don't think exists....


( DID IT TAKE LONG TO FIND ME? I ASKED THE FAITHFUL LIGHT
DID IT TAKE LONG TO FIND ME AND ARE YOU GONNA STAY THE NIGHT?
OH, I'M BEING FOLLOWED BY A MOON SHADOW, MOON SHADOW, MOON SHADOW.
LEAPIN' AND HOPPIN' ON A MOON SHADOW, MOON SHADOW, MOON SHADOW....)

 

[Moonbeam]

The weapons were a real issue to the UN, obviously, Alistar. because we pretended they were an issue to us.

Thanks for the clarification, Hay. Of course if the leader were appointed internally there would be the danger that a sickness overtaking the agency would be reflected right to the top. At least we have the assurance that the whole nation has to be sick to elect a sick leader and that's supposed to be out insurance. Unfortunately the guy that won the election didn't get the job. He wasn't selected by the Supreme Coup. Had he been we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

[drewshin]

***breaking news***

a phillips screwdriver has been found buried for ten years in the backyard of a prominent iraqi nuclear scientist. the screwdriver was known to be handled for use in screwing in possible nuclear components. phillips screwdrivers are notorious for being found in close proximity to nuclear components, and should be considered proof of a desire to hide an ongoing nuclear program by the iraqis.

 

[Alistar7]

yeah this was only a screwdriver, not the materials and info needed to make nuclear bombs, and they obviously never intended on reviving the program illegally after the coast was clear, make light of it, just makes you look....


You are so right moon, gore won, so what do we do now? Can you turn back time so he can serve a full term or should we just let him have the next 4 years?

 

[Moonbeam]

after the coast was clear
------------------------------
You mean to tell me we were in no immediate danger and the nuclear weapons program hadn't been reconstituted? Damn, the coast would never have been clear.

 

[Alistar7]

he never would have complied either...


Boettcher: Iraqis possibly 3 years from bomb

On the other hand, the scientist [Mahdi Obeidi] who turned it over to them said that there was no program after '91, that he was ordered in 1991, and other top nuclear scientists, to take various components and kits, as they were called, with the various plans and diagrams for this centrifuge and hide them.

BOETTCHER: Well, in Obeidi's view, he believes it will be broader because he says other scientists are watching what happens to him. He says others are willing to come forward, but they want to see how the U.S. is going to treat him. Is he going to be tried as a war criminal, which it appears he won't be. Is he going to be held in custody?

He says when he went in 1991 to pick up that particular gas centrifuge kit, as he called it, there were three others there at the office he went to, and he doesn't know where those three others are, although he's given information to the U.S. about scientists that they may want to question about those other three kits.

DOBBS: Are there any other purpose for this material that Obeidi has turned over to the United States?

BOETTCHER: No, it's not dual use. He says precisely that this was to make a gas centrifuge to enrich uranium. It would have taken several dozen of them to enrich enough uranium in a period that would have taken about a year or so once they had that gas centrifuge built.

He believes that would have taken maybe another two years or so. So a total program of two to three and a half years. And he believes it was kept solely for the purpose of reconstituting the program once Saddam thought it was safe.

 

[amok]

He says precisely that this was to make a gas centrifuge to enrich uranium. It would have taken several dozen of them to enrich enough uranium in a period that would have taken about a year or so once they had that gas centrifuge built.

Exactly as I said in my earlier post, the use of centrifuges isn't real practical. These things aren't the kind of 'fuge you see on a desktop in labs either, they are monsters that require big equipment to move them around. The 'several dozen' is a very vague number too. What he was really talking about is a facility with about 40-50 of these monsters connected in a type of loop system (open at some points because chemical treatment is necessary to continue the refinement process). A facility of this magnitude could crank out enough enriched uranium for a single bomb in about a year. They had three of these centrifuges according to the report, and all of them have been stored/buried for more than a decade. Procuring/building the rest of the system, setting up the facility, mining out the super-low grade ore, and actually processing it in 3 years? Lol, I suppose it could be done. Being done without anyone knowing about it is even more unlikely. IMO, this guy is willing to spout any crap necessary to keep his arse out of the frying pan.

Edit: Those quotes are a bit misleading. There wasn't an actual centrifuge, just plans and a few specialty parts.

 

[Alistar7]

spouting anything and producing are two different things, ask Bush, he's beginning to see the difference.....

He said he knew of 3 others, that doesnt mean more don't exist. Considering everything that is known about how secretive the programs were, it's shocking he knows about anyone else doing this.

Obviously this was the method that was going to be employed, I am sure Saddam knew what he needed and made sure to have more than enough saved, otherwise what's the point. With unlimited money anything can be achieved, and Saddam had that tenfold.

 

[amok]

Lol, if he wasn't learning a lesson from this I would seriously consider changing nationalities. I don't know if I could put up with it for the year he has left in office.

And yes, having lots of money to throw around can get things done. Hiding it is another story altogether, even with lots of money. He used dual-use facilities to camoflauge most of his other programs. This type of facility would be rather hard to pass off as dual-use. It would have to be a fairly large facility, and have access to a fairly substantial power source, so hiding it would be more than a little difficult with the number of imaging and infrared satellites floating around above Iraq. Putting it underground is a possibility I suppose, but do the underground bunkers have enough capacity, both spatial and energy wise? Don't have an answer to that one, but I'm sure the IA's do.

Edit: OK, inactive programs aren't necessarily "non-realized", will remove that reference.

 

[Moonbeam]

I am sure
-----------------
Yup, that's Alistar all right.

 

[Alistar7]

without a doubt it could be underground, alot of his stuff already was. I do not think you could call his WMD programs unrealized, whether he was still making or just trying to hold onto a small stockpile or even just the equipment and technology, they were proficient at producing them in mass quantities.

I don't think even if they haven't found any WMD by election time it will affect Bush, the only ones who really care about this issue would not vote for him anyway and still wouldn't even if he produced everything he claimed he knew.

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't think even if they haven't found any WMD by election time it will affect Bush, the only ones who really care about this issue would not vote for him anyway and still wouldn't even if he produced everything he claimed he knew.
----------------------------
Are these cracks in the defense I detect here? Like it matters to truth who believes what. It's a sad comment on your morality, though, that it wouldn't matter to you.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
without a doubt it could be underground, alot of his stuff already was. I do not think you could call his WMD programs unrealized, whether he was still making or just trying to hold onto a small stockpile or even just the equipment and technology, they were proficient at producing them in mass quantities.

I don't think even if they haven't found any WMD by election time it will affect Bush, the only ones who really care about this issue would not vote for him anyway and still wouldn't even if he produced everything he claimed he knew.

I don't think the left or right will change... but the me's in the middle somewhere will go away from the bush toward most anyone but bush