CNN: Nuclear program components unearthed in Iraq

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: zantac

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: zantac
misleading title if i ever saw one.

got my hopes up, hell even the media isnt making this a big deal :\

Guess you haven't been here long (june 2003 - yep I was right ) - you need to read some of the headlines that have been posted

So Nuclear weapon equipment isn't significant? or just that Nuclear is a WMD? or are you saying we didn't find them?

Granted equipment isn't ACTUAL WMDs but it is used to make WMD but it is still a SIGNIFICANT WMD find.

I swear the reading comprehension and deduction skills of the people on this forum amaze me.

CkG

what was there to deduce? the original poster had no link nothing, i check CNN and they said right off the bat that it wasnt a smoking gun and it was a 12 year old site, and that directly contradicts the Title which so boldly states "CNN Breaking News: Significant WMD (Nuclear) find in Iraq" A significant WMD find would infact be WMD. Remeber what WMD stands for? WEAPONS of MASS DESTRUCTION, this find had no WEAPONS.

everybody knows that iraq had WMD in the past, this find does nothing but support what everybody allready knows.

please dont insult my ability to deduce and/or comprehend a title.

His title was not out of line. There was a find in Iraq, as significant one, one that deals with WMD(nuclear). Wow- that was hard to understand

CkG

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Sorry, I'm missing it. What does one have to do with the other? It was buried for 12 years; sounds like they were contained to me.

Only as long as inspections and sanctions remained on Iraq.

OK, works for me. You say that as if it's a bad thing.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: mastertech01

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: DukeFan21

We had a containment and inspection program that was working

If Saddam was still in power now, this scientist would have never came forward.

Sorry, I'm missing it. What does one have to do with the other? It was buried for 12 years; sounds like they were contained to me.

So in that logic, isnt what you are saying is that a loaded gun with the safety set, Hidden away in your closet, is no threat.

Nope, didn't say anything remotely similar to that.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

His title was not out of line. There was a find in Iraq, as significant one, one that deals with WMD(nuclear). Wow- that was hard to understand

CkG

Without knowing more about the find, we cannot say if it is significant or not. It certainly is interesting.

Re. the title, though it's a hair over the top, I'm OK with it. It gives a good sense of what the thread is about. In my opinion, of course.

 

[GoodToGo]

What a bunch of horse sh!t. So they find a centrifuge, big deal

Its been quite a while since the war has ended and until now the US intelligence agencies have only been able to come up with a centrifuge? Where are the real WMD's? Where are the tons of boilogical and chemical agents? Have they found a nuke yet? If no, then they can find all the items needed to build a nuke and still it would not mean that Saddam had WMD's. Remember that Bush started the war with promise that Iraq had WMD's. All you Bush fan boys can start moving the goal post with respect to WMD's (as you did with Bin Ladin) but still it comes down the fact that with each day, the Bush government is starting to look more like idiots about this whole WMD mess.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Sorry, I'm missing it. What does one have to do with the other? It was buried for 12 years; sounds like they were contained to me.

Only as long as inspections and sanctions remained on Iraq.

OK, works for me. You say that as if it's a bad thing.

After 12 years it becomes a tedious boring game. If we wanted to do inspections, there should have been a clear timeline. No less than 50K troops should have been sent to the area to enforce the inspections. None of the this was done.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: GoodToGo
What a bunch of horse sh!t. So they find a centrifuge, big deal

Its been quite a while since the war has ended and until now the US intelligence agencies have only been able to come up with a centrifuge? Where are the real WMD's? Where are the tons of boilogical and chemical agents? Have they found a nuke yet? If no, then they can find all the items needed to build a nuke and still it would not mean that Saddam had WMD's. Remember that Bush started the war with promise that Iraq had WMD's. All you Bush fan boys can start moving the goal post with respect to WMD's (as you did with Bin Ladin) but still it comes down the fact that with each day, the Bush government is starting to look more like idiots about this whole WMD mess.

Moving the goal post? Buahaha! What ever is found (links, equipment, etc) is always quickly denounce by you Bush haters as "not a smoking gun" but what you fail to realize is that as each link, piece, etc is found it only bolsters what Bush et al have said about this whole Iraq situation. WHEN we find toxins/chemicals you people will probably question the quantity

Yeah, I guess having buried centrifuges that they didn't account for and/or destroy just must have been an oversite

Get a grip bedwetters and wake up. Your incessant crying and whining while backpedalling is bordering on comical...no - it is comical!

CkG

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: GoodToGo
What a bunch of horse sh!t. So they find a centrifuge, big deal

Its been quite a while since the war has ended and until now the US intelligence agencies have only been able to come up with a centrifuge? Where are the real WMD's? Where are the tons of boilogical and chemical agents? Have they found a nuke yet? If no, then they can find all the items needed to build a nuke and still it would not mean that Saddam had WMD's. Remember that Bush started the war with promise that Iraq had WMD's. All you Bush fan boys can start moving the goal post with respect to WMD's (as you did with Bin Ladin) but still it comes down the fact that with each day, the Bush government is starting to look more like idiots about this whole WMD mess.

Moving the goal post? Buahaha! What ever is found (links, equipment, etc) is always quickly denounce by you Bush haters as "not a smoking gun" but what you fail to realize is that as each link, piece, etc is found it only bolsters what Bush et al have said about this whole Iraq situation. WHEN we find toxins/chemicals you people will probably question the quantity

Yeah, I guess having buried centrifuges that they didn't account for and/or destroy just must have been an oversite

Get a grip bedwetters and wake up. Your incessant crying and whining while backpedalling is bordering on comical...no - it is comical!

CkG

Finding this cetrifuge does nothing to bolster Bush's accusations about Iraq's nuclear program - it absolutely demolishes them. If they did have an active program, I find it highly doubtful that equipment necessary for the program would have remained buried for 12 years.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Bad title . . . uninformative thread.

 

[zantac]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
His title was not out of line. There was a find in Iraq, as significant one, one that deals with WMD(nuclear). Wow- that was hard to understand

CkG

His title was out of line. There was no Significant Weapons of Mass Destruction (Nuclear) find in Iraq. Wow- that was hard to understand. Re-wording the title as you did does not change the fact that the title is, in it's current state, incorrect.

 

[DukeFan21]

Title edited in light of full story.

 

[DukeFan21]

Originally posted by: zantac

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
His title was not out of line. There was a find in Iraq, as significant one, one that deals with WMD(nuclear). Wow- that was hard to understand

CkG

His title was out of line. There was no Significant Weapons of Mass Destruction (Nuclear) find in Iraq. Wow- that was hard to understand. Re-wording the title as you did does not change the fact that the title is, in it's current state, incorrect.

The original title was not out of line, as I took it exactly from CNN (TV) when it broke.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: zantac

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
His title was not out of line. There was a find in Iraq, as significant one, one that deals with WMD(nuclear). Wow- that was hard to understand

CkG

His title was out of line. There was no Significant Weapons of Mass Destruction (Nuclear) find in Iraq. Wow- that was hard to understand. Re-wording the title as you did does not change the fact that the title is, in it's current state, incorrect.

So you are saying that Nukes aren't WMD? The reason I ask is because the way your argument possibly holds water is if you believe that. Nuclear weapons are WMD to me, and therefore if we find a specific part used in the manufacture of WMD(nukes) I consider it a significant WMD find. It doesn't HAVE to be actual weapons. Things aren't always black and white(as your fellow whiners like to say)

Believe what you want though, you will be shown the fool.

CkG

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Moving the goal post? Buahaha! What ever is found (links, equipment, etc) is always quickly denounce by you Bush haters as "not a smoking gun" but what you fail to realize is that as each link, piece, etc is found it only bolsters what Bush et al have said about this whole Iraq situation. WHEN we find toxins/chemicals you people will probably question the quantity

Yeah, I guess having buried centrifuges that they didn't account for and/or destroy just must have been an oversite

Get a grip bedwetters and wake up. Your incessant crying and whining while backpedalling is bordering on comical...no - it is comical!

CkG

I'm too lazy this morning to repeat myself without repeating myself, so here's my response to Michael's similar comments. Just substitute "CkG" for "Michael":

Originally posted by: Michael
Fencer128's post (and a few others echoing the same thing) is exactly what I expected. It doesn't matter what they find. The US could find 100 drums of nerve gas all stacked up and the refrain would be that it wasn't deployed so it didn't count.

The cry was "no evidence of WMD". Now it'll be "it isn't the right evidence".

For the record Michael, it was Bush-lite and his minions who claimed over and over again that they had the proof, that they knew with certainty ("these are facts, not asssertions") that Iraq had thousands of liters of chemical and biological agents, that they knew where these weapons were, and on and on and on. Anyone who questioned this was branded anti-American and a Saddam-supporter.

So where are these tremendous quantities of weapons of mass distraction? So far, nothing. Show us these "100 drums of nerve gas" and see how we respond*. Don't change the subject by insinuating that our expectations are unreasonable. They aren't our claims. Just show us the stuff your boy said was there.

(*I can tell you right now what my personal reaction will be, if this ever occurs: so what, doesn't change a thing. As I said here from the beginning, this was an illegal and immoral war even if Bush & Co's claims were true. We had a containment and inspection program that was working; it was a U.N. resolution and we had no right to act unilaterally lacking a clear and immediate danger to this country or our allies. Given the way Iraq rolled over to our invasion, it is apparent that they were no threat to anyone.

This is all moot, of course, since we have found exactly squat so far.)

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
So you are saying that Nukes aren't WMD? The reason I ask is because the way your argument possibly holds water is if you believe that. Nuclear weapons are WMD to me, and therefore if we find a specific part used in the manufacture of WMD(nukes) I consider it a significant WMD find. It doesn't HAVE to be actual weapons. Things aren't always black and white(as your fellow whiners like to say)

Believe what you want though, you will be shown the fool.

CkG

You're big on name-calling this morning. Maybe you shouldn't post until you've had a couple of cups of coffee. In any case, I'll repeat myself again:

Let's stipulate for the sake of argument that this really is a uranium centrifuge, and that its one and only possible use is enriching uranium for use in atomic weapons. Again, I am stipulating that you are right.

So what?

We know that Iraq had a nuclear arms development program at one time. The fact that we just found evidence of this program just confirms what we already know. Yes, they had a nukes program -- past tense. What we need to know before we can understand the significance is when was the centrifuge manufactured, when was it buried, and (if we don't know this already), what level of progress in their nukes program does this device represent? If it was manufactured 15 years ago, ho hum, old news. If it was built recently, it might be significant.

Similarly, if it appears to be a prototype, a proof-of-concept, or even a single research device, it's probably not terribly significant. If it appears to be a production-quality device, especially if it is also high capacity or one of many, then it may mean something.

Based on the sketchy information we have so far, we don't know if this is important, or just another in a long string of false alarms.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
So you are saying that Nukes aren't WMD? The reason I ask is because the way your argument possibly holds water is if you believe that. Nuclear weapons are WMD to me, and therefore if we find a specific part used in the manufacture of WMD(nukes) I consider it a significant WMD find. It doesn't HAVE to be actual weapons. Things aren't always black and white(as your fellow whiners like to say)

Believe what you want though, you will be shown the fool.

CkG

You're big on name-calling this morning. Maybe you shouldn't post until you've had a couple of cups of coffee. In any case, I'll repeat myself again:

Let's stipulate for the sake of argument that this really is a uranium centrifuge, and that its one and only possible use is enriching uranium for use in atomic weapons. Again, I am stipulating that you are right.

So what?

We know that Iraq had a nuclear arms development program at one time. The fact that we just found evidence of this program just confirms what we already know. Yes, they had a nukes program -- past tense. What we need to know before we can understand the significance is when was the centrifuge manufactured, when was it buried, and (if we don't know this already), what level of progress in their nukes program does this device represent? If it was manufactured 15 years ago, ho hum, old news. If it was built recently, it might be significant.

Similarly, if it appears to be a prototype, a proof-of-concept, or even a single research device, it's probably not terribly significant. If it appears to be a production-quality device, especially if it is also high capacity or one of many, then it may mean something.

Based on the sketchy information we have so far, we don't know if this is important, or just another in a long string of false alarms.

Right

Are you saying you people aren't whining? Sounds like whining to me Same shrill tone same lame argument. Hardly name calling.

The whole point is IT IS SIGNIFICANT - you people want to dismiss this as if it were a buried crock pot or something. IT IS A CENTRIFUGE, not some random part. Plus it doesn't matter when it was manufactured - if it could work or not is a better argument(not that I'm agreeing with your argument )
I don't know if this all the details about it(and neither do you) but based on current info it has been identified, was found buried, and wasn't declared - therefore a reasonably intuitive person would go "Hmmm...what else is he trying to hide and how quickly could these(and other) parts be assembled into a usable machine." One could also ask "why would have a component for making nuclear weapons that isn't declared if he wasn't still trying to further his nuclear program."

Just because you will never get all the info about it doesn't mean you can totally dismiss it and like-wise it isn't a smoking gun unless we find more info that links it with a "current" Nuke program. But either way it is a significant find since it establishes that Saddam has infact hidden(buried) things that were prohibited and undeclared and that the scientists will talk once they feel safe.

CkG

 

[ConclamoLudus]

The documents will be the most important find out of this. I think they already moved any weapons they had out of Iraq long before the war, but they definitely had them at some point and they certainly weren't going to destroy them. This find is interesting, but as the CIA says its NOT a smoking gun.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Bits and pieces, nuts and bolts.
This isn't even a functional GAS CENTRIFUGE -
at most it's a machined end cap, or bearing support trunion moun, but it MAY be able to have been used to
reconstruct one in the future, providing that there was not damage to the component from oxidation or corrosion,
and that it could be restored to working condition after 12 years of neglect.
The pictures shown may not even be what was actually found, but may be a photo
to display an example of what the part(s) may look like.

There was a reference to Scuds being burried - as tempramental and fragile as the Scuds have proven to be,
I doubt that a burried Scud could even be returned to a servicable condition in anything less than a very long
time, and the functionality of the weapon is poor to bad at best.

I guess that if they find a machine shop with a working lathe, they could point at that and say
"Look, here's a device that can be used to make components for a weapons program"

When did this guy defect, or leave Iraq, and we better start strip mining his gardens for parts.
And, seriously - take metal detectors nad mass detectors to the homes of everyone who
had been working on any of the associated weapons programs to see what else might be there.

 

[jahawkin]

I see. So when Cheney was on meet the press and said "we believe he (Saddam) has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons" he was talking about a centrifuge that has been buried for 12 years that could be used to enrich uranium.

 

[Moonbeam]

Centrifuges are just spin.

 

[ConclamoLudus]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Centrifuges are just spin.

They seem to spin to the right and the left.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: jahawkin
I see. So when Cheney was on meet the press and said "we believe he (Saddam) has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons" he was talking about a centrifuge that has been buried for 12 years that could be used to enrich uranium.

for the record
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0306/17/se.13.html

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We know he's been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.

 

[LunarRay]

With all that depleted Uranium churned into the air from the M1 Tank battles I wonder why we don't find traces of nuke bomb blasts.

 

[Czar]

http://www.canada.com/news/story.asp?id=B7E04EA8-FFAF-4989-87B3-8CF010973C31

UN agency says nuclear find indicates Baghdad did not restart weapons program

VIENNA (AP) - Indirectly challenging a U.S. argument for war on Iraq, the UN atomic agency said Thursday that a find of parts from Baghdad's original nuclear weapons program appears to back its stance that the project had never been reactivated.

The comments reflected the ongoing dispute between the United Nations and Washington over whether outsted president Saddam Hussein was trying to make weapons of mass destruction.

The U.S. administration argued such programs existed in going to war against Baghdad, while UN inspectors said their searches on the ground turned up no evidence of such programs.

 

[amok]

Sorry, but I'm running a bit late to a dinner/business engagement and didn't read all the posts, but I do have a few things to say about uranium refinement through the use of centrifuges. The centrifuges are only a very small part of the process (although agreeably a very lengthy part). Uranium refinement, especially weapons grade refinement, is a VERY big undertaking. The US abandoned this technique a long time ago, because it isn't very practical even for refining power plant grade uranium (less than 20%), much less weapons grade (95%+).