CNN: Nuclear program components unearthed in Iraq

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate
Konichiwa -

The insppectors had a right to be there. This shows that Iraq was not acting in good faith. The lack of good faith by the Irzqi government is why the US and one of the largest international coalitions in the history of the world united to remove Saddam.

The US (UK at least) invaded because Iraq was deemed a potent and imminent threat - not because Saddam is a liar.

This could be the smoking gun that you (and the rest of the liberal menace) have been screaming about. Now it is here, and still you whine about it.

If it is significant, it's still not a smoking gun - that would be some nice tanks full of nasty chemicals.

Face it... you will never be happy.

I'd be happy (if you can call it that) when these dangerous chemicals are found or the governments admit they embellished the threat Iraq posed a little. Whichever comes first.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Drift3r]

Let's all wait a day or two before making the giant leap. CNN has been known to jump the gun on more then a few stories.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: konichiwa
Could be. Point is the fact that it was hidden isn't really a smoking gun. If it's a centrifuge, or whatever, that can be definitely pointed as being used for nuclear...things...then so be it. But I can just see it now, people screaming that it MUST be something because if it ISN'T, why would they be hiding it? and that's pretty stupid, as I illustrated in my last post.

The problem is that there are no real household uses for this stuff.

Intentionally or not, you're ignoring Koni's point. Let's stipulate for the sake of argument that this really is a uranium centrifuge, and that its one and only possible use is enriching uranium for use in atomic weapons. Again, I am stipulating that you are right.

So what?

We know that Iraq had a nuclear arms development program at one time. The fact that we just found evidence of this program just confirms what we already know. Yes, they had a nukes program -- past tense. What we need to know before we can understand the significance is when was the centrifuge manufactured, when was it buried, and (if we don't know this already), what level of progress in their nukes program does this device represent? If it was manufactured 15 years ago, ho hum, old news. If it was built recently, it might be significant.

Similarly, if it appears to be a prototype, a proof-of-concept, or even a single research device, it's probably not terribly significant. If it appears to be a production-quality device, especially if it is also high capacity or one of many, then it may mean something.

Based on the sketchy information we have so far, we don't know if this is important, or just another in a long string of false alarms.

 

[tnitsuj]

SCRATCH THAT:

CNN Has pictures of components. Apparently this guy buried them in his backyard 12 years ago.

From CNN.COM

 

[Michael]

Fencer128's post (and a few others echoing the same thing) is exactly what I expected. It doesn't matter what they find. The US could find 100 drums of nerve gas all stacked up and the refrain would be that it wasn't deployed so it didn't count.

The cry was "no evidence of WMD". Now it'll be "it isn't the right evidence".

They lost the fight to stop the war and I predict they'll lose the fight to redefine victory after the war.

Michael

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Michael
Fencer128's post (and a few others echoing the same thing) is exactly what I expected. It doesn't matter what they find. The US could find 100 drums of nerve gas all stacked up and the refrain would be that it wasn't deployed so it didn't count.

The cry was "no evidence of WMD". Now it'll be "it isn't the right evidence".

They lost the fight to stop the war and I predict they'll lose the fight to redefine victory after the war.

Michael

You misread my posts if that's what you think! Re-read them please and tell me if you still think that about me.

BTW - It's not evidence of WMD people want - it's actual WMD.

Andy

EDIT: I'll call it a smoking gun if they find 100 drums of VX.

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: Michael
Fencer128's post (and a few others echoing the same thing) is exactly what I expected. It doesn't matter what they find. The US could find 100 drums of nerve gas all stacked up and the refrain would be that it wasn't deployed so it didn't count.

The cry was "no evidence of WMD". Now it'll be "it isn't the right evidence".

They lost the fight to stop the war and I predict they'll lose the fight to redefine victory after the war.

Michael

Sigh. Always so black and white. The least you could do is read the posts before you come to conclusions...

 

[DukeFan21]

Did anyone say that it was a smoking gun?

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: DukeFan21
Did anyone say that it was a smoking gun?

I think the CIA is going out of it's way to say it is not a smoking gun.

It is clear evidence that they did have a prohibited item, although it was twelve years ago, they should have declared it and had it destroyed. Not a smoking gun, but obviously noteworthy. Doesn't rise to the level of clear and present danger that the administration was talking about.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: DukeFan21
Did anyone say that it was a smoking gun?

I wasn't referring to the centrifuge - but to Michael's 100 drums of nerve gas example (which is a smoking gun in my mind).

Michael insinuated that I (and many like me) would never except that Iraq was a real threat. I said in my posts that I would except it was a threat if they found stockpiled WMD's (as we were led to believe) aka "a smoking gun".

It was a counter to Michael's post.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/25/sprj.irq.centrifuge/index.html

 

[Michael]

konichiwa - I've read the posts (and other sover the months and years I've been here). After reading them and thinking about it, I made my post. I think I'm accurate in my assessment.

fencer128 - I didn't think I insinuated anything. I thought I was much more direct than that.

Michael

 

[Fencer128]

fencer128 - I didn't think I insinuated anything. I thought I was much more direct than that.

Michael

I was trying to be polite

I still think you're wrong about my posts - and that you generalise everyone who looked/are looking for more evidence to having the same views.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[DukeFan21]

MSNBC:

Sources told NBC News? Jim Miklaszewski that within just the past week, U.S. investigators had found two shipping containers filled with millions of much more recent documents relating to chemical and biological weapons.

One of the documents, from 2001, was titled ?Document burial and U.N. activities in Iraq,? the sources said. It gave detailed instructions on how to hide materials and deceive U.N. weapons inspectors, the sources said. Other documents related to the concealment of VX nerve gas, the sources said.

The sources said U.S. troops also discovered about 300 sacks of castor beans, which are used to make the deadly biological agent ricin, hidden in a warehouse in the town of al-Aziziyah, 50 miles southeast of Baghdad, the capital. The castor beans were inaccurately labeled as fertilizer.

U.S. search teams have also been led to a site near Nasiriyah, a key Euphrates River crossing 200 miles south of Baghdad, where Iraqi informants said Scud missiles were buried.

http://msnbc.com/news/931304.asp?0cv=CB10

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Michael
Fencer128's post (and a few others echoing the same thing) is exactly what I expected. It doesn't matter what they find. The US could find 100 drums of nerve gas all stacked up and the refrain would be that it wasn't deployed so it didn't count.

The cry was "no evidence of WMD". Now it'll be "it isn't the right evidence".

For the record Michael, it was Bush-lite and his minions who claimed over and over again that they had the proof, that they knew with certainty ("these are facts, not asssertions") that Iraq had thousands of liters of chemical and biological agents, that they knew where these weapons were, and on and on and on. Anyone who questioned this was branded anti-American and a Saddam-supporter.

So where are these tremendous quantities of weapons of mass distraction? So far, nothing. Show us these "100 drums of nerve gas" and see how we respond*. Don't change the subject by insinuating that our expectations are unreasonable. They aren't our claims. Just show us the stuff your boy said was there.

(*I can tell you right now what my personal reaction will be, if this ever occurs: so what, doesn't change a thing. As I said here from the beginning, this was an illegal and immoral war even if Bush & Co's claims were true. We had a containment and inspection program that was working; it was a U.N. resolution and we had no right to act unilaterally lacking a clear and immediate danger to this country or our allies. Given the way Iraq rolled over to our invasion, it is apparent that they were no threat to anyone.

This is all moot, of course, since we have found exactly squat so far.)

 

[Conky]

My mom's a democrat. She says it was probably planted.

 

[DukeFan21]

We had a containment and inspection program that was working

If Saddam was still in power now, this scientist would have never came forward.

 

[HappyGamer2]

it's been buried for 12 years.................................................what's that tell ya
more hype
can we even believe this? they are getting desperate

PS: the CIA found it.....................................

 

[AnImuS]

IS this undeniable proof that Saddam went lengths to hide things he didnt want to be seen. Now wether what they find is important that still remains to be seen.

 

[Mark]

This was buried 12 YEARS AGO. Just because it Iraq may have had true intentions of making a nuclear weapon back then doesn't mean they had that intention this time around just because this is now being found. If they did, something like this wouldn't be buried for so long.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Mark
This was buried 12 YEARS AGO. Just because it Iraq may have had true intentions of making a nuclear weapon back then doesn't mean they had that intention this time around just because this is now being found. If they did, something like this wouldn't be buried for so long.

Buahahahaha!!!!

Right, and I buried my moonshine still when they came looking around my place during prohibition...but I never intended on reusing it

CkG

 

[phillyTIM]

another *YAWN*

 

[Mark]

Explain to me please then, why it was buried for 12 YEARS? I can see it being buried for a few years just to get the inspectors off thier backs, but 12 years? And since when did this whole issue of finding WMD's turn from finding the actual weapons themselves to finding evidence of materials used to make nuclear weapons?

 

[mastertech01]

Can we verify it was buried 12 years ago, or is that just another story from our trusted friends of the Baath party?

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: mastertech01
Can we verify it was buried 12 years ago, or is that just another story from our trusted friends of the Baath party?

The CIA seems pretty sure of this. The info is from an Iraqi scientist who said he buried it in his backyard after the Gulf war...or he could just be jerking our chains. Who knows.