BeauJangles
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2001
- 13,941
- 1
- 0
You really hate that he's genuinely popular, huh? How is being popular a bad thing? Oh right, it isn't.
AyashiKaibutsu
Diamond Member
- Jan 24, 2004
- 9,306
- 4
- 81
It's all a republican conspiracy. You see this won't be completely proven until Obama is already in office! With him already elected, the republicans know congress will enact an amendment that removes the requirement to be a natural born citizen so Obama can stay! They're throwing the election with Mccain on purpose! They even cheated to get Bush in once and destroyed the WTC to get him elected a second time then had him do all that stupid crap including this recent economic crisis! All to drive republican approval ratings into the dirt so that Obama could rise up against all odds and win 08. How does this all come together for the republicans you ask? Schwarzenegger! It's all a plot from 00, to 9/11, to 04, all the way to now to get Schwarzenegger 2012!
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Thanks.
But for those following my *tinfoil* unreasonable requests for some *real* testing for qualifications, I'm not interested in the 2007 BC copy that'e been provided. It's from a hospital generated database in state where *call-in* BC's are permitted etc.
I'm willing to concede the 2007 copy actually came of their database, and it's not a forgery in the sense somebody made it up with a graphics app.
I'd be happy if some objective Hawaiin state official would just step forth and say the 2007 copy was based on a regular (hospital live-type) BC.
Fern
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
No, obviously I wasn't a dual-citizen (which was the real point). If I had been a citizen of France they certainly would have given me a French passport.
It's not really about the passport, it's about gaining another citizenship. You need the other citizenship to get the second pasport. AFAIK, you don't get a passport without citizenship. Although I suppose in wierd and unusual cases are there might be exceptions to get some sort of *special* passport - I'm thinking of exiled politicians given sanctuary etc.
I know many dual citizens, they fall into two types:
1. Had anoither countries citizenship prior to getting US citizenship. The other country didn't, for whatever reason, revoke their citizenship.
2. Applied for another countries risking that the US would revoke theirs.
IIRC (and it's now been about 20 years) when obtaining another countries citizenship your oath of allegence to that other country to gain their citizenship is/ was considered an affirmative act on your behalf renouncing your US citizenship (swearing allegance to another country).
Dual citizenship is not as easy as many make out here. My wife was born in Italy, her family still lives there. But she did pick up (dual) French citizenship when we worked in Paris/France. Several years when re-applying for her Italian passport they found out about her (dual) French citizenship and stripped her Italian citizenship. This caused us some problem because up til then she had been traveling only on her Italian passport (no French passport). This happend right before a planned trup to Italy to see her family.
Fern
The problem here is if you're talking about the documentation Obama has provided, it's not from a hospital but from the department from the State of Hawaii responsible for providing birth certificates. A spokeswoman from the State of Hawaii has confirmed it's a valid Hawaii birth certificate. The signature stamp on the back of the certificate is from someone who works for the state. What more do you want?
Engineer
Elite Member
- Oct 9, 1999
- 39,230
- 701
- 126
For Obama to be ruled ineligible and McCain to become President. Oh well, I'm sure there are far better lawyers and folks in the political arena than "anyone" here and they sure as hell don't seem to be able to get traction from all of the metal hats floating around. Nothing is coming of this...nothing.
Why would the guy being a Hillary supporter/Democrat/NAACP member or whatever matter for standing? Standing is a legal term that basically says in order to sue someone to get them to do something, you have to show how them doing it has harmed you. Obama running for president has not harmed that guy in any specific way, so he can't sue him to stop. This is a very important part of our legal system, because our courts would be flooded with cases otherwise.
Ok, just to beat the dead horse a little longer, are you happy to admit that the following points:
P1) You wanted a document that wasn't generated from "some hospital computer database." The document was generated by the state of Hawaii, the same place that everyone born in Hawaii needing to get a copy of their birth certificate could turn to.
P2) The document satisfies the same legal requirements that original would satisfy in a court of law. (That fact is printed on the front of every Hawaii issued birth certificate and even points you to the relevant sections of the Hawaii Revised Statutes.)
P3) You wanted an objective Hawaiian state official to say that it was an official birth certificate, and both of the names I've provided are of Hawaiian state officials who have commented on the matter. You have not provided any proof to their lack of objectivity.
You've asked for proof that Obama is a natural born citizen and the evidence that's been provided, personal and family history dating from before he ran for public office, birth announcements in the local papers, an official government issued birth certificate, government officials confirming it's a real birth certificate, none of that is enough for you despite no proof and no credible evidence to the contrary. There's no evidence that any of the proof provided is false.
Just to be clear, the last things you're clinging to are the facts that it's not the original document issued 40+ years ago and the state of Hawaii may handle birth certificates differently for some people?
OrByte
Diamond Member
- Jul 21, 2000
- 9,303
- 144
- 106
I dunno about you, but I need to see photo documentation of Barrack H Obama Jr. crowning from out of the womb while his mom is lying on her back, legs in stirrups, in front of the Washington Monument (Or Statue of Liberty) in order for me to believe that he was born in the USA.
I'm confused, when are allegations in a lawsuit evidence of any sort? Where are images of this supposed official Kenyan birth certificate? Where's the audio recording or transcripts even of these alleged claims by "Obama's relatives"? Where's the evidence his mother was ever in Kenya?
On one hand, you have hypothetical theories, mystery individuals, anonymous blog postings, and allegations in a lawsuit. On the other you have verifiable stories, names of real people, people commenting on the record, and physical government documents.
All I'm asking for is for some evidence for the theories you're pushing. It doesn't even have to be solid evidence. A blurry cell phone shot of this piece of Kenyan paper would work. The name of an actual person who supposedly went to Kenya and claims to have seen a birth certificate there. Berg has said he'd release the audio recording or even a transcript of this supposed grandmother's admission of Barack's Kenyan birth. In a couple days he said. How long ago was this? What does this do to his credibility?
That's the problem. Fern and others are applying some sort of moon logic standard of evidence to this. By any reasonable standard Obama has proved his citizenship time and again. The only way they can continue with their ridiculous conspiracy theory is to treat unverified accusations from a lawsuit filed by a single guy as equivalent to US government documents and the testimony of the agencies responsible for such things.
Sure it's ridiculous, but I guess if that's what they need, let them indulge in their fantasies. It does seem awfully funny now though, after attacking people for unfounded accusations on Bush for so many years, they would immediately leap on this sort of 'evidence' to hold it up to us.
I guess it tells you a lot about them, eh?
Pepsei
Lifer
- Dec 14, 2001
- 12,895
- 1
- 0
Obama's birth certificate sealed by Hawaii governor
link
so what does this mean?
1) there IS a birth certificate at the Hawaii Department of Health
2) A republican governor who's Palin's close friend (was even by her side when palin was in labor)
3) Palin and McCain is not touching this with a 10 foot pole, probably already know what's on that certificate
4) some people are arguing that if obama have nothing to hide, he should release it.... why should he when he can keep those people focusing on this? by doing this, they won't spend time trying to dig up other stuff. he's doing a good job at rope a dope.
link
so what does this mean?
1) there IS a birth certificate at the Hawaii Department of Health
2) A republican governor who's Palin's close friend (was even by her side when palin was in labor)
3) Palin and McCain is not touching this with a 10 foot pole, probably already know what's on that certificate
4) some people are arguing that if obama have nothing to hide, he should release it.... why should he when he can keep those people focusing on this? by doing this, they won't spend time trying to dig up other stuff. he's doing a good job at rope a dope.
Born2bwire
Diamond Member
- Oct 28, 2005
- 9,840
- 6
- 71
Hell, on one hand the Republicans would be interested in keeping this going as a way to further progress their notions that people cannot be sure of Obama and his past to be President. The Democrats would be interested in this since it's pretty much dismissed by most people and want to further such a harmless distraction. It wouldn't surprise me if both sides are dragging their feet about this.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Neither you or eskimospy seem familiar with court, law or legal terms etc
"Allegations" are different from "fact". You are confusing terms you are clearly unfamiliar with.
Facts asserted in court are done so in support of an "allegation". Whether or not the allegation is proven (by the facts) is up to the court.
To knowingly assert false claims as facts is purjury, a lawyer cannot lawfully particpate in this. See PA ethics for attorneys Link
And so forth^ (bounce around the site and make yourself happy. Only a idiot could possibly think you can *make up* false info and represent it as fact and not be guilty of perjury/lying to the court. Be aware that lawyers are sworn "Officers of the Court"; what kind of system allows them to lie as to statements of facts with impunity? That's preposterous.
Berg, an attorney in PA (and former Asst AG) is familiar with, and subject to, these rules.
While we in the *laymens world* may believe (and sometimes with good reason I will admit) think lawyers lie, they cannot (or are prohibited from) knowingly submit false info as "facts" to the court. Now, they may take these facts and twist them for their client's benefit, but they cannot outright lie to the courts; if they do so and are caught it's perjury (disbarment and/or jail time)
You guys are accusing this attorney (a former AG) of outright lying to the court. IDK, he may be, but I think you have some burden of proof if you wish to dismiss his professional claims out-of-hand and lable him worthy of disbarment/jail.
Read his court filing and the included claims of proof he's ready to submit to the court; he need not provide you the proof, but IMO the court(s) should examine it as we have no (so far) demonstrable and/or serious system for acertaining a candidates' qualifications for office.
Part of this may arise from my professional background as a CPA; this flimsy/lame crap would never fly in the accounting world where peoples' money is at stake. The burden of proof on us is far greater. That strikes me as wrong given the seriousness of such a high office.
Just because some gov dept says something doesn't make it so without verification. I have posted many times that my non-citizen wife was entered as a registered voter here in the US by the DMV despite her protestations to the contrary. And just earlier tonight I saw a segment on the news where others have been as well. They were found out through a *routine* voter fraud investigation when the voter roles were cross-checked and consequently they were discovered; they're getting deported because they actually voted etc. These things are not unusual, you're often talking about minimum wage, untrained people processing paperwork and inputting stuff in databases. When it becomes important, it needs to be verified ("audited" is the term in my *world*)
Like I said, we aren't allowed to rely on such flimsy *proof* (and dang I hate to use that word in this context) in my profession. I don't see why we should here when reasonable doubt exists (if his mother had never left the country this wouldn't even be a question, but no one disputes that she did, and was out-of-country while pregnant etc).
The burden of proof is upon the candidate, inspite of your desires to the contrary. What's the f'n problem with him producing an original? You guys wouldn't let this fly if it was a *GWB question*, but somehow it's OK here?
Fern
Fern, you don't know what you are talking about. You can allege 'on information and belief', and nothing more, which is what Berg did. If Berg has a copy of a Kenyan birth certificate he should have attached it to his pleadings; and if he's heard a recording he could have provided an authenticated copy of the transcript of the recording to his pleadings. He did neither because he's full of shit. Also, the guy had NO STANDING to sue. His horse didn't come out of the gate. LOL! He's an idiot....
I suspect Loopy is a lawyer, but I am a lawyer, and thought this lawsuit was bullshit when it was first brought to my attention by one of my right wing tennis buddies. But, don't take my word for it as the judge said the suit was 'frivolous'. Judges don't issue rulings like that except in the most blatant cases of abuse of the legal system.
-Robert
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