• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Clinton lied, Bush didn't

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: AcidicFury
Jewish World Review!?!?!??! COME ON!!!
One more post to prove my point

Thanks!

That point being???

Your post in that thread was complaining of anti-war.com being used as a source. Anti-war.com is actually a conservative site. You should be right in line with their views, eh?


Oh wait...you're a neoconservative. My bad.

Yeah....I'm a neoconservative.....yep....my political hero Thomas Jefferson was sure a neoconservative. You guys on the left, and don't deny you are on the left conjur, are craking me up with the way you throw neoconservative around. You try to say anyone who is a conservative is a big scary neo conservative....ooooooooooohhhhhhhhh spooky......

I am a classic fiscal and social conservative. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for antiwar.com being conservative.....yeah it's about as in line with majority conservative thought as the Green Party is with majority liberal thought. Antiwar.com is conservative if you want to expand the current definition to include the style of conservative thought that was popular pre WWI. It has nothing to do with the definition of a conservative since WWII at all.

Of course you probably consider conservative thought based on the post WWII conservative ideals to be neo conservative.
 
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: AcidicFury
Jewish World Review!?!?!??! COME ON!!!
One more post to prove my point

Thanks!

That point being???

Your post in that thread was complaining of anti-war.com being used as a source. Anti-war.com is actually a conservative site. You should be right in line with their views, eh?


Oh wait...you're a neoconservative. My bad.

Yeah....I'm a neoconservative.....yep....my political hero Thomas Jefferson was sure a neoconservative. You guys on the left, and don't deny you are on the left conjur, are craking me up with the way you throw neoconservative around. You try to say anyone who is a conservative is a big scary neo conservative....ooooooooooohhhhhhhhh spooky......
Where do I say that? Point out one case.


I am a classic fiscal and social conservative. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you feel you are a classic conservative, then you would be against rapid change in the government. You would be against ideologically-driven policies. Therefore, you would be adamantly against this administration in its radical departure from the history of the U.S.'s foreign policy and with the ideological PNAC neocons running the administration.

Your social conservatism is readily apparently as is most of the other Bush supporters up here. Adhering to strict, and often fundamentalist, Christian views is glaringly apparent. That is really the only difference between myself and a conservative under this definition.

I'm for personal liberty and not ruling via the Bible.


As for antiwar.com being conservative.....yeah it's about as in line with majority conservative thought as the Green Party is with majority liberal thought. Antiwar.com is conservative if you want to expand the current definition to include the style of conservative thought that was popular pre WWI. It has nothing to do with the definition of a conservative since WWII at all.

Of course you probably consider conservative thought based on the post WWII conservative ideals to be neo conservative.
It's not my problem nor anti-war's problem that the "majority conservative thought" has moved more and more to the right, linking itself tighter and tighter with religious teachings, all while seeking to increase government size and intervention. You've given in to the propaganda of the neocons.
 
Originally posted by: AcidicFury
Jewish World Review!?!?!??! COME ON!!!

LMAO!!!!

i think ill post something from a militant islamic website

"American infidels raped an 12 year old boy and sacrificed a small goat for their bloodthirsty god"
 
conjur, conjur, conjur.

First off you tend to call any conservative on here a neo conservative. Look through the threads on here and that is easy to see. Though after reading this post I see why you think that way. The conservative movement changed after WWII. It became less isolationist and more aggressive in foreign policy. Remember the cold war and engaging the communists? You are still trying to define a conservative by it's pre WWII, really WWI, definition.

Secondly calling me a fundamentalist Christian who wants to rule from the Bible....man that is a laugh. I'm not even a Christian. Not to say I don't believe in a God, I just have my own beliefs that don't jive with most people.

Thirdly the majority of conservative thought has not moved farther and farther to the right. There are a minority of people who are conservatives who are far to the right, but they have always been there. It is just now that their voices are really being heard and thus I believe the reason for your perception. The same can be said for the far left. They have always been there, we are just now hearing more from them. Part of the whole news blitz that has happened since the 24 hour cable channels came along.
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't know about you but if I was busted letting a Pig like Moanica giving me a BJ I would deny it too!
I (personally) did NOT have sex with THAT < bites tongue to keep from laughing at next word > woman. 😛

Oinkers of the world, unite. You have nothing to lose but his cigar. :laugh:

I said it, before, and I'll say it again... Rip give it a fscking rest! Keep jacking everyone off with these incredibly lame sources, and nobody's going to bother clicking your rant threads, let alone believe a word you post.

Clinton lied about failing to return his fly to its full upright position. For the record, George W. Bush is the worst liar to hold the office of President of the United States since Richard Nixon said, "I am not a crook." He lied for power. He lied for greed. He lied about the deficit. He lied about the cost of his lame medical bill. He lied about WMD's. He lied about Saddam's connections to 9/11 and Al qaeda, and it doesn't stop there. Hell! If Dumbyah said it was morning, I'd be sure it was evening. :|

I'm a lib, and you'd like to believe you're a "conservative," so I have to point out that true CONSERVATIVES are slow to make critical changes because they want to take the time to consider the ramifications of their actions, instead of barging ahead with ill conceived ideas. True CONSERVATIVES would not barge into an ELECTIVE war without planning what to do assuming the initial battle was successful. True CONSERVATIVES would not spend the nation into the worst deficit in history by prosecuting an ELECTIVE war while cutting taxes for just the very rich.

Now, let's really get down to it. True CONSERVATIVES would not abbrogate the Constitution of the United States of America by imprisoning U.S. citizens for years without even allowing them access to legal representation, nor would they would they abbrogate the Constitution of the United States of America by claiming they could do so with nothing more than a Presidential order. That is what happened in pre WW II Nazi Germany! :| If you don't come from a background that will remind you of this, I DO. I was born in to a Jewish family from Hungary and Lithuania two months before Pearl Harbor.

You don't have to ascribe Hitler and Mussolini's motives to the Bushies to be very frightened by what they are doing. It doesn't matter. Whatever they may really have in mind, these people are not CONSERVATIVE! They are, in fact, RADICALS! There agenda scares the living sh8 out of me. :|

Rip -- Exactly how truly CONSERVATIVE are you?

If you were younger and female, I'd marry you. :heart:

Cheers!
Nate
 
Originally posted by: Shuxclams
Riprorin
Diamond Member

Posts: 5055
Joined: 04/25/2000

Motion to ban.................. All in favor ...


SHUX
From your sig....

"Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." - Justice William O. Douglas


Hmmmm....don't seem to really believe in what your sig says do you?
 
Originally posted by: shinerburke
conjur, conjur, conjur.

First off you tend to call any conservative on here a neo conservative. Looks through the threads on here and that is easy to see. Though after reading this post I see why you think that way. The conservative movement changed after WWII. It became less isolationist and more aggressive in foreign policy. Remember the cold war and engaging the communists? You are still trying to define a conservative by it's pre WWII, really WWI, definition.
Oh? And what would that be?

Oh, btw, did Reagan ever engage the communists? How many countries did Reagan invade, occupy, and install new governments? Sure, there was the support of rebels through Central America but that's a far cry from what Bush did in Iraq. One thing I find interesting that no one seems to want to talk about is that Negroponte, involved heavily in supporting the death squads in Central America, is now our ambassador to Iraq.


Secondly calling me a fundamentalist Christian who wants to rule from the Bible....man that is a laugh. I'm not even a Christian. Not to say I don't believe in a God, I just have my own beliefs to don't jive with most people.
I never said you were a fundamentalist Christian and I never said you wanted to rule from the Bible. Go back and reread my response to you.


Thirdly the majority of conservative thought has not moved farther and farther to the right. There are a minority of people who are conservatives who are far to the right, but they have always been there. It is just now that their voices are really being heard and thus I believe the reason for your perception. The same can be said for the far left. They have always been there, we are just now hearing more from them. Part of the whole news blitz that has happened since the 24 hour cable channels came along.
That "minority" of people to the far right have been more vocal and more forceful in their drive to enact their policies thru this administration. As a result, the real conservatives are giving in to that and even falling for that propaganda in the name of party loyalty. It's a disgrace to see people ruining the GOP. The far left has been use to label anyone on the left since the Bush/Dukakis campaign. That's when liberal became the hated "L" word.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
conjur, conjur, conjur.

First off you tend to call any conservative on here a neo conservative. Looks through the threads on here and that is easy to see. Though after reading this post I see why you think that way. The conservative movement changed after WWII. It became less isolationist and more aggressive in foreign policy. Remember the cold war and engaging the communists? You are still trying to define a conservative by it's pre WWII, really WWI, definition.
Oh? And what would that be?


Secondly calling me a fundamentalist Christian who wants to rule from the Bible....man that is a laugh. I'm not even a Christian. Not to say I don't believe in a God, I just have my own beliefs to don't jive with most people.
I never said you were a fundamentalist Christian and I never said you wanted to rule from the Bible. Go back and reread my response to you.


Thirdly the majority of conservative thought has not moved farther and farther to the right. There are a minority of people who are conservatives who are far to the right, but they have always been there. It is just now that their voices are really being heard and thus I believe the reason for your perception. The same can be said for the far left. They have always been there, we are just now hearing more from them. Part of the whole news blitz that has happened since the 24 hour cable channels came along.
That "minority" of people to the far right have been more vocal and more forceful in their drive to enact their policies thru this administration. As a result, the real conservatives are giving in to that and even falling for that propaganda in the name of party loyalty. It's a disgrace to see people ruining the GOP. The far left has been use to label anyone on the left since the Bush/Dukakis campaign. That's when liberal became the hated "L" word.
1. What would that definition be? In a word....Isolationist. More? Well the pre WWI conservatives were pretty much for maintaining the status quo, change for the better even be damned.

2. You didn't call me that? Hmmm...let's take another look at what you said...

"Your social conservatism is readily apparently as is most of the other Bush supporters up here. Adhering to strict, and often fundamentalist, Christian views is glaringly apparent."

Seems to me that is exactly what you called me.

3. Yes the minority is more vocal, but I don't really see them as being more mainstream in the current administration. Yes there have been some influences, specifically stem cell research comes to mind, but they have been no more successful in getting things passed than the far left was during Clinton's two terms.
 
Originally posted by: shinerburke
1. What would that definition be? In a word....Isolationist. More? Well the pre WWI conservatives were pretty much for maintaining the status quo, change for the better even be damned.
I am certainly not an isolationist, although, I do feel our borders are too porous and we treat illegal immigrants with kid gloves and often hand them the keys to the city.


2. You didn't call me that? Hmmm...let's take another look at what you said...

"Your social conservatism is readily apparently as is most of the other Bush supporters up here. Adhering to strict, and often fundamentalist, Christian views is glaringly apparent."

Seems to me that is exactly what you called me.
That's because your views are distorted. I was referring to the social conservatism expressed up here by the Bush supporters and was implying that your views seem to match theirs, which are often aligned with fundamentalist Christian views.


3. Yes the minority is more vocal, but I don't really see them as being more mainstream in the current administration. Yes there have been some influences, specifically stem cell research comes to mind, but they have been no more successful in getting things passed than the far left was during Clinton's two terms.

Uhhhh....PNAC:

Cheney
Rumsfeld
Wolfowitz
Feith
Armitage
Perle
Rove
Libby


Those names ring any bells?


How about Christian Reconstructionists like:

DeLay
Ashcroft
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
1. What would that definition be? In a word....Isolationist. More? Well the pre WWI conservatives were pretty much for maintaining the status quo, change for the better even be damned.
I am certainly not an isolationist, although, I do feel our borders are too porous and we treat illegal immigrants with kid gloves and often hand them the keys to the city.


2. You didn't call me that? Hmmm...let's take another look at what you said...

"Your social conservatism is readily apparently as is most of the other Bush supporters up here. Adhering to strict, and often fundamentalist, Christian views is glaringly apparent."

Seems to me that is exactly what you called me.
That's because your views are distorted. I was referring to the social conservatism expressed up here by the Bush supporters and was implying that your views seem to match theirs, which are often aligned with fundamentalist Christian views.


3. Yes the minority is more vocal, but I don't really see them as being more mainstream in the current administration. Yes there have been some influences, specifically stem cell research comes to mind, but they have been no more successful in getting things passed than the far left was during Clinton's two terms.

Uhhhh....PNAC:

Cheney
Rumsfeld
Wolfowitz
Feith
Armitage
Perle
Rove
Libby


Those names ring any bells?


How about Christian Reconstructionists like:

DeLay
Ashcroft
Of the folks on that list the only ones I would really classify as "neoconservatives" are Wolfowitz and Perle....the rest I think are just lumped in there.

As for DeLay &amp; Ashcroft? No big deal. So they are Christian, it's not like they are using their power or positions to make any religion other than the one they believe illegal. If Ashcroft were to suddenly start rouding up everyone who wasn't say....Baptist....then he would be abusing his power. Right now he's just doing the job of the AG.
 
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
1. What would that definition be? In a word....Isolationist. More? Well the pre WWI conservatives were pretty much for maintaining the status quo, change for the better even be damned.
I am certainly not an isolationist, although, I do feel our borders are too porous and we treat illegal immigrants with kid gloves and often hand them the keys to the city.


2. You didn't call me that? Hmmm...let's take another look at what you said...

"Your social conservatism is readily apparently as is most of the other Bush supporters up here. Adhering to strict, and often fundamentalist, Christian views is glaringly apparent."

Seems to me that is exactly what you called me.
That's because your views are distorted. I was referring to the social conservatism expressed up here by the Bush supporters and was implying that your views seem to match theirs, which are often aligned with fundamentalist Christian views.


3. Yes the minority is more vocal, but I don't really see them as being more mainstream in the current administration. Yes there have been some influences, specifically stem cell research comes to mind, but they have been no more successful in getting things passed than the far left was during Clinton's two terms.

Uhhhh....PNAC:

Cheney
Rumsfeld
Wolfowitz
Feith
Armitage
Perle
Rove
Libby


Those names ring any bells?


How about Christian Reconstructionists like:

DeLay
Ashcroft
Of the folks on that list the only ones I would really classify as "neoconservatives" are Wolfowitz and Perle....the rest I think are just lumped in there.
No, all of those names are either actual members of the PNAC or have close ties with those in the PNAC. It doesn't get any more neoconservative than that group.


As for DeLay &amp; Ashcroft? No big deal. So they are Christian, it's not like they are using their power or positions to make any religion other than the one they believe illegal. If Ashcroft were to suddenly start rouding up everyone who wasn't say....Baptist....then he would be abusing his power. Right now he's just doing the job of the AG.
No big deal?

Do you know what the ideology of the Christian Reconstructionists is?? Apparently not.
 
As for DeLay &amp; Ashcroft? No big deal. So they are Christian, it's not like they are using their power or positions to make any religion other than the one they believe illegal. If Ashcroft were to suddenly start rouding up everyone who wasn't say....Baptist....then he would be abusing his power. Right now he's just doing the job of the AG.

Funniest thing I've read all week.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
1. What would that definition be? In a word....Isolationist. More? Well the pre WWI conservatives were pretty much for maintaining the status quo, change for the better even be damned.
I am certainly not an isolationist, although, I do feel our borders are too porous and we treat illegal immigrants with kid gloves and often hand them the keys to the city.


2. You didn't call me that? Hmmm...let's take another look at what you said...

"Your social conservatism is readily apparently as is most of the other Bush supporters up here. Adhering to strict, and often fundamentalist, Christian views is glaringly apparent."

Seems to me that is exactly what you called me.
That's because your views are distorted. I was referring to the social conservatism expressed up here by the Bush supporters and was implying that your views seem to match theirs, which are often aligned with fundamentalist Christian views.


3. Yes the minority is more vocal, but I don't really see them as being more mainstream in the current administration. Yes there have been some influences, specifically stem cell research comes to mind, but they have been no more successful in getting things passed than the far left was during Clinton's two terms.

Uhhhh....PNAC:

Cheney
Rumsfeld
Wolfowitz
Feith
Armitage
Perle
Rove
Libby


Those names ring any bells?


How about Christian Reconstructionists like:

DeLay
Ashcroft
Of the folks on that list the only ones I would really classify as "neoconservatives" are Wolfowitz and Perle....the rest I think are just lumped in there.
No, all of those names are either actual members of the PNAC or have close ties with those in the PNAC. It doesn't get any more neoconservative than that group.


As for DeLay &amp; Ashcroft? No big deal. So they are Christian, it's not like they are using their power or positions to make any religion other than the one they believe illegal. If Ashcroft were to suddenly start rouding up everyone who wasn't say....Baptist....then he would be abusing his power. Right now he's just doing the job of the AG.
No big deal?

Do you know what the ideology of the Christian Reconstructionists is?? Apparently not.
Good grief....so someone belongs to a political group....big deal. I belong to several that I don't agree 100% with. Most of the time you join them for schmoozing purposes....I know I did when I ran for office.

As for Ashcroft and being a Christian Reconstructionist.....what has he done while in office to further that so called agenda? He is doing the job of AG and I haven't seen him push some radical Christian agenda bent on taking over the Govt. I would be bothered if I did, see my earlier post about not being a Christian, but he has not.
 
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Of the folks on that list the only ones I would really classify as "neoconservatives" are Wolfowitz and Perle....the rest I think are just lumped in there.
No, all of those names are either actual members of the PNAC or have close ties with those in the PNAC. It doesn't get any more neoconservative than that group.


As for DeLay &amp; Ashcroft? No big deal. So they are Christian, it's not like they are using their power or positions to make any religion other than the one they believe illegal. If Ashcroft were to suddenly start rouding up everyone who wasn't say....Baptist....then he would be abusing his power. Right now he's just doing the job of the AG.
No big deal?

Do you know what the ideology of the Christian Reconstructionists is?? Apparently not.
Good grief....so someone belongs to a political group....big deal. I belong to several that I don't agree 100% with. Most of the time you join them for schmoozing purposes....I know I did when I ran for office.
Again you fall into the typical neocon response (Big deal. So what?)

It's an incredibly huge deal. This is a group of people who have been encouraging, almost demanding, the U.S. government to spread democracy, by force if necessary. They are the most egregious of ideologues, the type of people you should be adamantly critical of, being a conservative and all (yeah...you're a conservative. You're as far right of a conservative as I am of a leftist.)


As for Ashcroft and being a Christian Reconstructionist.....what has he done while in office to further that so called agenda? He is doing the job of AG and I haven't seen him push some radical Christian agenda bent on taking over the Govt. I would be bothered if I did, see my earlier post about not being a Christian, but he has not.
If you cannot see what he's done to push pro-life, pro-religious views into legislation and selective enforcement of laws then you are beyond hope.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Of the folks on that list the only ones I would really classify as "neoconservatives" are Wolfowitz and Perle....the rest I think are just lumped in there.
No, all of those names are either actual members of the PNAC or have close ties with those in the PNAC. It doesn't get any more neoconservative than that group.


As for DeLay &amp; Ashcroft? No big deal. So they are Christian, it's not like they are using their power or positions to make any religion other than the one they believe illegal. If Ashcroft were to suddenly start rouding up everyone who wasn't say....Baptist....then he would be abusing his power. Right now he's just doing the job of the AG.
No big deal?

Do you know what the ideology of the Christian Reconstructionists is?? Apparently not.
Good grief....so someone belongs to a political group....big deal. I belong to several that I don't agree 100% with. Most of the time you join them for schmoozing purposes....I know I did when I ran for office.
Again you fall into the typical neocon response (Big deal. So what?)

It's an incredibly huge deal. This is a group of people who have been encouraging, almost demanding, the U.S. government to spread democracy, by force if necessary. They are the most egregious of ideologues, the type of people you should be adamantly critical of, being a conservative and all (yeah...you're a conservative. You're as far right of a conservative as I am of a leftist.)


As for Ashcroft and being a Christian Reconstructionist.....what has he done while in office to further that so called agenda? He is doing the job of AG and I haven't seen him push some radical Christian agenda bent on taking over the Govt. I would be bothered if I did, see my earlier post about not being a Christian, but he has not.
If you cannot see what he's done to push pro-life, pro-religious views into legislation and selective enforcement of laws then you are beyond hope.
Your hatred is clouding your views. Membership in a group does not mean 100% agreement with that group. There are exceptions, the KKK, Nazi Party(excluding the normal citizens who had to join or die of course) but for the most part group memberships mean nothing. You're really trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Back to Ashcroft. Give me some examples of legislation he has "pushed" thru.
 
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Of the folks on that list the only ones I would really classify as "neoconservatives" are Wolfowitz and Perle....the rest I think are just lumped in there.
No, all of those names are either actual members of the PNAC or have close ties with those in the PNAC. It doesn't get any more neoconservative than that group.


As for DeLay &amp; Ashcroft? No big deal. So they are Christian, it's not like they are using their power or positions to make any religion other than the one they believe illegal. If Ashcroft were to suddenly start rouding up everyone who wasn't say....Baptist....then he would be abusing his power. Right now he's just doing the job of the AG.
No big deal?

Do you know what the ideology of the Christian Reconstructionists is?? Apparently not.
Good grief....so someone belongs to a political group....big deal. I belong to several that I don't agree 100% with. Most of the time you join them for schmoozing purposes....I know I did when I ran for office.
Again you fall into the typical neocon response (Big deal. So what?)

It's an incredibly huge deal. This is a group of people who have been encouraging, almost demanding, the U.S. government to spread democracy, by force if necessary. They are the most egregious of ideologues, the type of people you should be adamantly critical of, being a conservative and all (yeah...you're a conservative. You're as far right of a conservative as I am of a leftist.)


As for Ashcroft and being a Christian Reconstructionist.....what has he done while in office to further that so called agenda? He is doing the job of AG and I haven't seen him push some radical Christian agenda bent on taking over the Govt. I would be bothered if I did, see my earlier post about not being a Christian, but he has not.
If you cannot see what he's done to push pro-life, pro-religious views into legislation and selective enforcement of laws then you are beyond hope.
Your hatred is clouding your views. Membership in a group does not mean 100% agreement with that group. There are exceptions, the KKK, Nazi Party(excluding the normal citizens who had to join or die of course) but for the most part group memberships mean nothing. You're really trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
A pre-emptive invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation is making "a mountaing out of a mole hill"??? WTF?? *I* have clouded views? Yours are completely obstructed! All but a couple of the names I listed earlier were signees to various letters to the Clinton administration as far back as 1997. They are most certainly in 100% agreement of the PNAC vision. They ARE the PNAC.


Back to Ashcroft. Give me some examples of legislation he has "pushed" thru.
http://www.mainefamilyplanning.org/docs/press_room/ashcroft.php
 
Originally posted by: conjur
A pre-emptive invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation is making "a mountaing out of a mole hill"??? WTF?? *I* have clouded views? Yours are completely obstructed! All but a couple of the names I listed earlier were signees to various letters to the Clinton administration as far back as 1997. They are most certainly in 100% agreement of the PNAC vision. They ARE the PNAC.

Back to Ashcroft. Give me some examples of legislation he has "pushed" thru.
http://www.mainefamilyplanning.org/docs/press_room/ashcroft.php

Funny....that link about Ashcroft covers his career as a Governor and in the Senate, not his time as AG. You do know the difference right. Governors and Senators can write, push for, and adopt new laws. The Attorney General enforces the law. So what has he done since becoming AG to push the Christian Reconstructions agenda?

Ahhh yes....the whole illegal war rant. Interesting...I seem to recall you supporting the war in the beginning. You were even using that as one of your so called credentials to show you are a "real" conservative in another recent thread here. Hmmmmmmm.........interesting little flip flop you got going on. So you supported it before you were against it. Hmmmmm.....who does that sound like? SO conjur. Which is it? Did you support a "pre-emptive invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation" or did you not? If you did you must be a neocon by using the very logic you have been arguing with in this thread..
 
WTF? Bush didn't lie?

How those who continue to support Bush and his crimes can look in the mirror every morning without puking I will never know. It took a lot of looking in the mirror, soul searching, and coming to terms with truths for me finally to drop the bullshit ideal of 'My country, right or wrong' and open my eyes to what's going on.

A huge F*ck you to every one of you whose continued blind faith in government and/or Bush is destroying this country. When in the hell did government stop being accountable to the public? 🙁

I am tired of being lied to on a continual basis...
 
Originally posted by: conjur
A pre-emptive invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation is making "a mountaing out of a mole hill"??? WTF?? *I* have clouded views? Yours are completely obstructed! All but a couple of the names I listed earlier were signees to various letters to the Clinton administration as far back as 1997. They are most certainly in 100% agreement of the PNAC vision. They ARE the PNAC.

January 26, 1998



The Honorable William J. Clinton
President of the United States
Washington, DC


Dear Mr. President:

We are writing you because we are convinced that current American policy toward Iraq is not succeeding, and that we may soon face a threat in the Middle East more serious than any we have known since the end of the Cold War. In your upcoming State of the Union Address, you have an opportunity to chart a clear and determined course for meeting this threat. We urge you to seize that opportunity, and to enunciate a new strategy that would secure the interests of the U.S. and our friends and allies around the world. That strategy should aim, above all, at the removal of Saddam Hussein?s regime from power. We stand ready to offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor.

The policy of ?containment? of Saddam Hussein has been steadily eroding over the past several months. As recent events have demonstrated, we can no longer depend on our partners in the Gulf War coalition to continue to uphold the sanctions or to punish Saddam when he blocks or evades UN inspections. Our ability to ensure that Saddam Hussein is not producing weapons of mass destruction, therefore, has substantially diminished. Even if full inspections were eventually to resume, which now seems highly unlikely, experience has shown that it is difficult if not impossible to monitor Iraq?s chemical and biological weapons production. The lengthy period during which the inspectors will have been unable to enter many Iraqi facilities has made it even less likely that they will be able to uncover all of Saddam?s secrets. As a result, in the not-too-distant future we will be unable to determine with any reasonable level of confidence whether Iraq does or does not possess such weapons.


Such uncertainty will, by itself, have a seriously destabilizing effect on the entire Middle East. It hardly needs to be added that if Saddam does acquire the capability to deliver weapons of mass destruction, as he is almost certain to do if we continue along the present course, the safety of American troops in the region, of our friends and allies like Israel and the moderate Arab states, and a significant portion of the world?s supply of oil will all be put at hazard. As you have rightly declared, Mr. President, the security of the world in the first part of the 21st century will be determined largely by how we handle this threat.


Given the magnitude of the threat, the current policy, which depends for its success upon the steadfastness of our coalition partners and upon the cooperation of Saddam Hussein, is dangerously inadequate. The only acceptable strategy is one that eliminates the possibility that Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass destruction. In the near term, this means a willingness to undertake military action as diplomacy is clearly failing. In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy.

We urge you to articulate this aim, and to turn your Administration's attention to implementing a strategy for removing Saddam's regime from power. This will require a full complement of diplomatic, political and military efforts. Although we are fully aware of the dangers and difficulties in implementing this policy, we believe the dangers of failing to do so are far greater. We believe the U.S. has the authority under existing UN resolutions to take the necessary steps, including military steps, to protect our vital interests in the Gulf. In any case, American policy cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on unanimity in the UN Security Council.

We urge you to act decisively. If you act now to end the threat of weapons of mass destruction against the U.S. or its allies, you will be acting in the most fundamental national security interests of the country. If we accept a course of weakness and drift, we put our interests and our future at risk.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clinton for the most part agreed with the Pnac vision. He did act (in words but not in action).

Perhaps, if the Pnac had not been so focused upon Iraq, they along with others could have seen the gathering threat that hit us on 9/11.

Now, Iraq can no longer cloud the vision.....
 
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: conjur
A pre-emptive invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation is making "a mountaing out of a mole hill"??? WTF?? *I* have clouded views? Yours are completely obstructed! All but a couple of the names I listed earlier were signees to various letters to the Clinton administration as far back as 1997. They are most certainly in 100% agreement of the PNAC vision. They ARE the PNAC.

January 26, 1998



The Honorable William J. Clinton
President of the United States
Washington, DC


Dear Mr. President:

We are writing you because we are convinced that current American policy toward Iraq is not succeeding, and that we may soon face a threat in the Middle East more serious than any we have known since the end of the Cold War. In your upcoming State of the Union Address, you have an opportunity to chart a clear and determined course for meeting this threat. We urge you to seize that opportunity, and to enunciate a new strategy that would secure the interests of the U.S. and our friends and allies around the world. That strategy should aim, above all, at the removal of Saddam Hussein?s regime from power. We stand ready to offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor.

The policy of ?containment? of Saddam Hussein has been steadily eroding over the past several months. As recent events have demonstrated, we can no longer depend on our partners in the Gulf War coalition to continue to uphold the sanctions or to punish Saddam when he blocks or evades UN inspections. Our ability to ensure that Saddam Hussein is not producing weapons of mass destruction, therefore, has substantially diminished. Even if full inspections were eventually to resume, which now seems highly unlikely, experience has shown that it is difficult if not impossible to monitor Iraq?s chemical and biological weapons production. The lengthy period during which the inspectors will have been unable to enter many Iraqi facilities has made it even less likely that they will be able to uncover all of Saddam?s secrets. As a result, in the not-too-distant future we will be unable to determine with any reasonable level of confidence whether Iraq does or does not possess such weapons.


Such uncertainty will, by itself, have a seriously destabilizing effect on the entire Middle East. It hardly needs to be added that if Saddam does acquire the capability to deliver weapons of mass destruction, as he is almost certain to do if we continue along the present course, the safety of American troops in the region, of our friends and allies like Israel and the moderate Arab states, and a significant portion of the world?s supply of oil will all be put at hazard. As you have rightly declared, Mr. President, the security of the world in the first part of the 21st century will be determined largely by how we handle this threat.


Given the magnitude of the threat, the current policy, which depends for its success upon the steadfastness of our coalition partners and upon the cooperation of Saddam Hussein, is dangerously inadequate. The only acceptable strategy is one that eliminates the possibility that Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass destruction. In the near term, this means a willingness to undertake military action as diplomacy is clearly failing. In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy.

We urge you to articulate this aim, and to turn your Administration's attention to implementing a strategy for removing Saddam's regime from power. This will require a full complement of diplomatic, political and military efforts. Although we are fully aware of the dangers and difficulties in implementing this policy, we believe the dangers of failing to do so are far greater. We believe the U.S. has the authority under existing UN resolutions to take the necessary steps, including military steps, to protect our vital interests in the Gulf. In any case, American policy cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on unanimity in the UN Security Council.

We urge you to act decisively. If you act now to end the threat of weapons of mass destruction against the U.S. or its allies, you will be acting in the most fundamental national security interests of the country. If we accept a course of weakness and drift, we put our interests and our future at risk.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clinton for the most part agreed with the Pnac vision. He did act (in words but not in action).

Perhaps, if the Pnac had not been so focused upon Iraq, they along with others could have seen the gathering threat that hit us on 9/11.

Now, Iraq can no longer cloud the vision.....

Oh, Iraq has more than clouded the vision. It has shattered the crystal ball.

And, btw, if you've ever read or seen any interviews with Clinton, he did not agree with the aggressive tendencies of those in the PNAC to willingly use our military to effect change.

Clinton was for diplomacy and inspections first.
 
Originally posted by: conjur

Oh, Iraq has more than clouded the vision. It has shattered the crystal ball.

And, btw, if you've ever read or seen any interviews with Clinton, he did not agree with the aggressive tendencies of those in the PNAC to willingly use our military to effect change.

Clinton was for diplomacy and inspections first.[/quote]
Maybe that was because Clinton "loathed" the military. Of course he never seemed to have a problem lobbing cruise missiles around in a so called show of force. That is one of the core problems that led to our not being taken seriously by our enemies. You do something to us and maybe, just maybe we will lob a Tomahawk your way. It should be...you do something to us and we are going to use every means available to make sure you can't do it again. Half ass is no way to fight a war or use the military. That is what got us into trouble in Vietnam, Somalia, and Bosnia. If you are going to use the military against an enemy then use them. Unleash the full fury of the forces you have available. That is my one problem with the way things were handled in Iraq. We should have had more ground troops available from day 1. Of course Turkey F'ing us over was a large contributor to us missing a large portion of the forces we intended to use. Inspections? Come on man....what a tired old line. 12 years was long enough to let inspections work.
 
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: conjur
Oh, Iraq has more than clouded the vision. It has shattered the crystal ball.

And, btw, if you've ever read or seen any interviews with Clinton, he did not agree with the aggressive tendencies of those in the PNAC to willingly use our military to effect change.

Clinton was for diplomacy and inspections first.
Maybe that was because Clinton "loathed" the military. Of course he never seemed to have a problem lobbing cruise missiles around in a so called show of force. That is one of the core problems that led to our not being taken seriously by our enemies. You do something to us and maybe, just maybe we will lob a Tomahawk your way. It should be...you do something to us and we are going to use every means available to make sure you can't do it again. Half ass is no way to fight a war or use the military. That is what got us into trouble in Vietnam, Somalia, and Bosnia. If you are going to use the military against an enemy then use them. Unleash the full fury of the forces you have available. That is my one problem with the way things were handled in Iraq. We should have had more ground troops available from day 1. Of course Turkey F'ing us over was a large contributor to us missing a large portion of the forces we intended to use. Inspections? Come on man....what a tired old line. 12 years was long enough to let inspections work.
Remember...it was a Republican-controlled Congress from 1995-2000. You want to put the blame on Clinton? Who was sending him budget bills to sign? And, Rumsfeld has had plans to lessen the number of troops even more but is now putting those on hold due to the aggressive military policies of this administration.

As for inspections, yes, they were working. David Kay has stated that many, many weapons and components were destroyed during the inspection process of the 1990s. Many more than were destroyed during the 1991 Gulf War.

When inspections had been restarted before the Bush invasion, inspectors were not finding anything despite being told where to go by US intelligence. They did uncover some missiles that slightly exceeded distance limits and Iraq began to destroy those but Bush pulled the inspectors out before his scam could be exposed.
 
Back
Top