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Clinton lied, Bush didn't

Riprorin

Banned
Kathleen Parker

Sex, lies and yellowcake
http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com |

"When Clinton lied, nobody died."

So goes the mantra of the Bush-lied crowd, who are loath to surrender their rhyming couplet even in the face of contrary evidence.

The sidewalk slogan refers, of course, to President Bill Clinton's lies under oath about whether he had sexual relations with "that woman" and President George W. Bush's alleged lies about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

Comparing the two, one could feel nearly nostalgic for the relatively charming denials of romantic dalliance. It appears, however, that one of the presidents, George W. Bush, didn't lie. Instead, Bush seems to have told the truth as he knew it. Surely there is a difference between repeating unreliable information and willfully lying.

Bush's "lies" were assertions provided in large part by the Central Intelligence Agency, which receives little charity in the recently released Senate Intelligence Committee report. Among the committee's conclusions, the CIA relied on flabby information provided by dubious sources.

But what American intelligence believed about Saddam's ability to produce WMD was widely believed by every other intelligence agency in the world. And let's not forget, Saddam did nothing to convince weapons inspectors otherwise. In fact, he did everything he could to make inspectors, and the world, believe he had what he wouldn't show.

In its report, the Senate committee directly addresses and refutes several of Bush's "lies," notably the infamous 16 words from the 2003 State of the Union address, in which Bush said: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

As everyone learned soon thereafter, retired diplomat and CIA consultant Joseph Wilson, who had gone to Niger in 2002 to investigate the uranium yellowcake connection, publicly denounced Bush's claim as bogus. Fast-forward to summer 2004, and it appears that the bogus report was Wilson's.

The Senate report says that Wilson in fact returned with no information that cast doubt on the 16 words. Meanwhile, the Financial Times recently reported European intelligence sources confirming that Iraq and four other countries did discuss the purchase of uranium yellowcake with smugglers in Niger.

These reports were widely linked and discussed on Internet blogs, but hardly mentioned by mainstream media for some reason. Perhaps because Bush lied?

The Times also subsequently wrote another story saying that a British commission investigating intelligence was expected to conclude, "Britain's spies were correct to say that Saddam Hussein's regime sought to buy uranium from Niger."

The Senate report put to rest at least two other Bush "lies," concluding there was no evidence that the Bush administration pressured intelligence analysts to link al-Qaida and Iraq. Or that Bush sought to "coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities."

Which is not to say the report is without criticism for the administration. In one particularly damning section highlighted by Newsweek's Michael Isikoff, an Iraqi defector nicknamed "Curve Ball" was apparently the source of information about mobile biological labs that Secretary of State Colin Powell cited in his 2003 address to the United Nations making a case for war.

Curve Ball, it seems, was a drunk Iraqi defector of dubious credibility, who met once (while tending a terrible hangover) with one Pentagon analyst, who determined that the man was useless as a source.

Of course, being occasionally overserved doesn't necessarily make one unreliable. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant was known to imbibe enthusiastically. When someone criticized him to President Lincoln, the president urged finding out what he drank and providing it to the other generals.

It nevertheless seems likely that a case could be made for some degree of willful ignorance within the Bush administration, a preference for information that fits a preconceived notion of how things ought to go. Even so, does selective cognizance constitute intentional deceit?

Another question worth considering is, what would we have had Bush do post-9/11 given the information he had?

With 3,000 dead on American soil and the world's best intelligence agencies suggesting that Saddam Hussein - a known mass murderer who previously had used WMD - had stockpiles of biological weapons and was trying to buy uranium for the possible production of nuclear weapons, would anyone wish that Bush had ignored the intelligence and merely prayed that it was wrong?

Given that some of it was right - and given Saddam's history of ill intent - such luxury of speculation might not have been ours.

Link
 
Can't people just give this a rest?

Oh yes, and sex in the oval office != attacking a foreign country.
 
With 3,000 dead on American soil and the world's best intelligence agencies suggesting that Saddam Hussein - a known mass murderer who previously had used WMD - had stockpiles of biological weapons and was trying to buy uranium for the possible production of nuclear weapons, would anyone wish that Bush had ignored the intelligence and merely prayed that it was wrong?

Perhaps not, but now that we know IT WAS WRONG he should be responsible. He should recognize that he and his administration GUESSED WRONG. No one has done that so far...
 
Oh come on now, you really are grasping at every freaking straw you can. Again what does Clinton lying about a freakin blowjob have to due with 'certian' people saying Bush lied? Speaking for myself I have never said he lied, but in all probability probably mislead us, which is a far different thing, as was to quick to go to war. But then again, what in the hell does this have to do with Clinton? Funny how you constantly have to play the blame game. You're a pathetic troll.
 
I don't know about you but if I was busted letting a Pig like Moanica giving me a BJ I would deny it too!
 
Originally posted by: fwtong
Anyone who thinks any politician doesn't lie at all is delusional.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! :beer:😀:beer:

You get :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer: for that. 😀
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't know about you but if I was busted letting a Pig like Moanica giving me a BJ I would deny it too!
I (personally) did NOT have sex with THAT < bites tongue to keep from laughing at next word > woman. 😛

Oinkers of the world, unite. You have nothing to lose but his cigar. :laugh:

I said it, before, and I'll say it again... Rip give it a fscking rest! Keep jacking everyone off with these incredibly lame sources, and nobody's going to bother clicking your rant threads, let alone believe a word you post.

Clinton lied about failing to return his fly to its full upright position. For the record, George W. Bush is the worst liar to hold the office of President of the United States since Richard Nixon said, "I am not a crook." He lied for power. He lied for greed. He lied about the deficit. He lied about the cost of his lame medical bill. He lied about WMD's. He lied about Saddam's connections to 9/11 and Al qaeda, and it doesn't stop there. Hell! If Dumbyah said it was morning, I'd be sure it was evening. :|

I'm a lib, and you'd like to believe you're a "conservative," so I have to point out that true CONSERVATIVES are slow to make critical changes because they want to take the time to consider the ramifications of their actions, instead of barging ahead with ill conceived ideas. True CONSERVATIVES would not barge into an ELECTIVE war without planning what to do assuming the initial battle was successful. True CONSERVATIVES would not spend the nation into the worst deficit in history by prosecuting an ELECTIVE war while cutting taxes for just the very rich.

Now, let's really get down to it. True CONSERVATIVES would not abbrogate the Constitution of the United States of America by imprisoning U.S. citizens for years without even allowing them access to legal representation, nor would they would they abbrogate the Constitution of the United States of America by claiming they could do so with nothing more than a Presidential order. That is what happened in pre WW II Nazi Germany! :| If you don't come from a background that will remind you of this, I DO. I was born into a Jewish family from Hungary and Lithuania two months before Pearl Harbor.

You don't have to ascribe Hitler and Mussolini's motives to the Bushies to be very frightened by what they are doing. It doesn't matter. Whatever they may really have in mind, these people are not CONSERVATIVE! They are, in fact, RADICALS! Their agenda scares the living sh8 out of me. :|

Rip -- Exactly how truly CONSERVATIVE are you?
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't know about you but if I was busted letting a Pig like Moanica giving me a BJ I would deny it too!
I (personally) did NOT have sex with THAT < bites tongue to keep from laughing at next word > woman. 😛

Oinkers of the world, unite. You have nothing to lose but his cigar. :laugh:

I said it, before, and I'll say it again... Rip give it a fscking rest! Keep jacking everyone off with these incredibly lame sources, and nobody's going to bother clicking your rant threads, let alone believe a word you post.

Clinton lied about failing to return his fly to its full upright position. For the record, George W. Bush is the worst liar to hold the office of President of the United States since Richard Nixon said, "I am not a crook." He lied for power. He lied for greed. He lied about the deficit. He lied about the cost of his lame medical bill. He lied about WMD's. He lied about Saddam's connections to 9/11 and Al qaeda, and it doesn't stop there. Hell! If Dumbyah said it was morning, I'd be sure it was evening. :|

I'm a lib, and you'd like to believel you're a "conservative," so I have to point out that true CONSERVATIVES are slow to make critical changes because they want to take the time to consider the ramifications of their actions, instead of barging ahead with ill conceived ideas. True CONSERVATIVES would not barge into an ELECTIVE war without planning what to do assuming the initial battle was successful. True CONSERVATIVES would not spend the nation into the worst deficit in history by prosecuting an ELECTIVE war while cutting taxes for just the very rich.

Now, let's really get down to it. True CONSERVATIVES would not abbrogate the Constitution of the United States of America by imprisoning U.S. citizens for years without even allowing them access to legal representation. They would not abbrogate the Constitution of the United States of America by claiming they could do so with nothing more than a Presidential order. That is what happened in pre WW II Nazi Germany! :| If you don't come from a background that will remind you of this, I DO. I was born in to a Jewish family from Hungary and Lituania two months before Pearl Harbor.

You don't have to ascribe Hitler and Mussolini's motives to the Bushies to be very frightened by what they are doing. It doesn't matter. Whatever they may really have in mind, these people are not CONSERVATIVE! They are, in fact, RADICALS! There agenda scares the living sh8 out of me. :|

Rip -- Exactly how truly CONSERVATIVE are you?
Rip fully understands that if the Dub loses his Fund A Mental Case Movement will be regualted to the position it fully deserves..that of being inconsequential.
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't know about you but if I was busted letting a Pig like Moanica giving me a BJ I would deny it too!
I (personally) did NOT have sex with THAT < bites tongue to keep from laughing at next word > woman. 😛

Oinkers of the world, unite. You have nothing to lose but his cigar. :laugh:

I said it, before, and I'll say it again... Rip give it a fscking rest! Keep jacking everyone off with these incredibly lame sources, and nobody's going to bother clicking your rant threads, let alone believe a word you post.

Clinton lied about failing to return his fly to its full upright position. For the record, George W. Bush is the worst liar to hold the office of President of the United States since Richard Nixon said, "I am not a crook." He lied for power. He lied for greed. He lied about the deficit. He lied about the cost of his lame medical bill. He lied about WMD's. He lied about Saddam's connections to 9/11 and Al qaeda, and it doesn't stop there. Hell! If Dumbyah said it was morning, I'd be sure it was evening. :|

I'm a lib, and you'd like to believe you're a "conservative," so I have to point out that true CONSERVATIVES are slow to make critical changes because they want to take the time to consider the ramifications of their actions, instead of barging ahead with ill conceived ideas. True CONSERVATIVES would not barge into an ELECTIVE war without planning what to do assuming the initial battle was successful. True CONSERVATIVES would not spend the nation into the worst deficit in history by prosecuting an ELECTIVE war while cutting taxes for just the very rich.

Now, let's really get down to it. True CONSERVATIVES would not abbrogate the Constitution of the United States of America by imprisoning U.S. citizens for years without even allowing them access to legal representation, nor would they would they abbrogate the Constitution of the United States of America by claiming they could do so with nothing more than a Presidential order. That is what happened in pre WW II Nazi Germany! :| If you don't come from a background that will remind you of this, I DO. I was born in to a Jewish family from Hungary and Lithuania two months before Pearl Harbor.

You don't have to ascribe Hitler and Mussolini's motives to the Bushies to be very frightened by what they are doing. It doesn't matter. Whatever they may really have in mind, these people are not CONSERVATIVE! They are, in fact, RADICALS! There agenda scares the living sh8 out of me. :|

Rip -- Exactly how truly CONSERVATIVE are you?

Good points, maybe I'll vote Libertarian.

Harvey, as a Jew doesn't it bother you a bit that Kerry refered to Yasser Arafat as "role model"?

If I were Jewish, that would scare the heck out of me!

Monday, March 8, 2004
Kerry Praises Terrorist Leader Arafat as 'Role Model'

John Kerry called terrorist leader Yasser Arafat a "role model" and a "statesman" in a 1997 book "that Kerry cites as proof of his own foresight about foreign policy," the New York Post's Deborah Orin revealed today.

Kerry's latest flip-flop: He "expressed the opposite view eight days ago, when he told Jewish leaders in New York that he shares President Bush's belief that Arafat must be isolated because he's not a 'partner for peace' - much less a statesman."

In his book "The New War," which like his scandalous 1971 book, "The New Soldier," is out of print, Kerry claimed: "Terrorist organizations with specific political agendas may be encouraged and emboldened by Yasser Arafat's transformation from outlaw to statesman."

He added that terrorists "whose only object is to disrupt society require no such 'role models'" as Arafat.

The Post noted, "Kerry's remarks came as he was dismissing noted historian Paul Johnson as out of date for saying the Palestinian Liberation Organization is 'the quintessential terrorist movement' but has achieved nothing for its people."

What a novel way to secure the Democrats' all-important Jewish bloc of voters and donors. Too bad he didn't learn from Hillary Clinton's disastrous embrace of Mrs. Arafat.

Yet another flip-flop: Kerry told Arab American Institute in July that Israel's security fence was "provocative" and a barrier to peace. But he told Jewish leaders last week that the fence was "necessary to the security of Israel."

And still another waffle to add to Kerry's supersized stack: Jim Zogby, a member of Democratic National Committee who backs Kerry, says Kerry's aides told him the Massachusetts Democrat objected to the location of the fence.
 
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't know about you but if I was busted letting a Pig like Moanica giving me a BJ I would deny it too!
I (personally) did NOT have sex with THAT < bites tongue to keep from laughing at next word > woman. 😛

Oinkers of the world, unite. You have nothing to lose but his cigar. :laugh:

I said it, before, and I'll say it again... Rip give it a fscking rest! Keep jacking everyone off with these incredibly lame sources, and nobody's going to bother clicking your rant threads, let alone believe a word you post.

Clinton lied about failing to return his fly to its full upright position. For the record, George W. Bush is the worst liar to hold the office of President of the United States since Richard Nixon said, "I am not a crook." He lied for power. He lied for greed. He lied about the deficit. He lied about the cost of his lame medical bill. He lied about WMD's. He lied about Saddam's connections to 9/11 and Al qaeda, and it doesn't stop there. Hell! If Dumbyah said it was morning, I'd be sure it was evening. :|

I'm a lib, and you'd like to believe you're a "conservative," so I have to point out that true CONSERVATIVES are slow to make critical changes because they want to take the time to consider the ramifications of their actions, instead of barging ahead with ill conceived ideas. True CONSERVATIVES would not barge into an ELECTIVE war without planning what to do assuming the initial battle was successful. True CONSERVATIVES would not spend the nation into the worst deficit in history by prosecuting an ELECTIVE war while cutting taxes for just the very rich.

Now, let's really get down to it. True CONSERVATIVES would not abbrogate the Constitution of the United States of America by imprisoning U.S. citizens for years without even allowing them access to legal representation, nor would they would they abbrogate the Constitution of the United States of America by claiming they could do so with nothing more than a Presidential order. That is what happened in pre WW II Nazi Germany! :| If you don't come from a background that will remind you of this, I DO. I was born in to a Jewish family from Hungary and Lithuania two months before Pearl Harbor.

You don't have to ascribe Hitler and Mussolini's motives to the Bushies to be very frightened by what they are doing. It doesn't matter. Whatever they may really have in mind, these people are not CONSERVATIVE! They are, in fact, RADICALS! There agenda scares the living sh8 out of me. :|

Rip -- Exactly how truly CONSERVATIVE are you?

Good points, maybe I'll vote Libertarian.

Harvey, as a Jew doesn't it bother you a bit that Kerry refered to Yasser Arafat as "role model"?

If I were Jewish, that would scare the heck out of me!

Monday, March 8, 2004
Kerry Praises Terrorist Leader Arafat as 'Role Model'

John Kerry called terrorist leader Yasser Arafat a "role model" and a "statesman" in a 1997 book "that Kerry cites as proof of his own foresight about foreign policy," the New York Post's Deborah Orin revealed today.

Kerry's latest flip-flop: He "expressed the opposite view eight days ago, when he told Jewish leaders in New York that he shares President Bush's belief that Arafat must be isolated because he's not a 'partner for peace' - much less a statesman."

In his book "The New War," which like his scandalous 1971 book, "The New Soldier," is out of print, Kerry claimed: "Terrorist organizations with specific political agendas may be encouraged and emboldened by Yasser Arafat's transformation from outlaw to statesman."

He added that terrorists "whose only object is to disrupt society require no such 'role models'" as Arafat.

The Post noted, "Kerry's remarks came as he was dismissing noted historian Paul Johnson as out of date for saying the Palestinian Liberation Organization is 'the quintessential terrorist movement' but has achieved nothing for its people."

What a novel way to secure the Democrats' all-important Jewish bloc of voters and donors. Too bad he didn't learn from Hillary Clinton's disastrous embrace of Mrs. Arafat.

Yet another flip-flop: Kerry told Arab American Institute in July that Israel's security fence was "provocative" and a barrier to peace. But he told Jewish leaders last week that the fence was "necessary to the security of Israel."

And still another waffle to add to Kerry's supersized stack: Jim Zogby, a member of Democratic National Committee who backs Kerry, says Kerry's aides told him the Massachusetts Democrat objected to the location of the fence.
Harvey's not a Zionist Rip!
 
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Huh, I didn't know that Arafat had a lot Jewish supporters.
I don't know if he supports him or not. From what I gather he thinks both Arafat and Sharon suck hard but I could be mistaken.
 
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Harvey, as a Jew doesn't it bother you a bit that Kerry refered to Yasser Arafat as "role model"?

If I were Jewish, that would scare the heck out of me!
I don't know what I would think if I were Jewish in a relgious sense. I'm not. I was born to Jewish family, and I'm ethnically Jewish, but I'm a born again atheist.

Religious fundies are another reason the Bushwhackos scare me. Their entire belief system is built on myth, regardless of any later factual information, and they are so intolerant of any other views that they're willing to kill anything that doesn't look, talk and smell like they do. The Islamic religious morons scare me just as much for exactly the same reasons. So do the ultra orthodox Jewish crowd, both in Isreal and here, and if you want to know what I think about Ariel Sharon, read my post in this thread. The good news is, most of them aren't here. The bad news is, the Christian idiots are. :frown:

If I'm going to believe in any god at all, it's science... trying to find and VERIFY the truth about the universe we live in and always keeping an open mind to what we may learn in the future.

True conservatives would embrace conservation (note the same source of the words) because it conservatively plans for worst case possiblities arising from issues like global warming, rainforest devastation and epidemics like AIDS. True conservatives would promote sex education and birth control to stem the social chaos caused by the inability of today's societies to provide for a continually upwardly spiraling world population. Ignoring such issues is not conservative; it's blind, willing stupidity! :frown:

True conservatives would worry more, and spend more resources, fighting ethnic cleansing in Sudan, instead of going off half cocked on a war of choice, based on LIES (yay - we're back to the subject that started this thread).

A true conservative would go to war because it a was a true necessity, and if they were lucky, their conservative preparedness would mean they had the resources to pursue and defeat the demonstrated enemy. ANYONE GOT OSAMA, YET? :Q Are we spending enough money and attention to finish the job we should have been doing in Afghanistan? HELL NO! :|

It is also NOT a liberal or conservative issue to despise being lied to, especially when it leads our entire nation into a major self destruct mode, both internally and with respect to the rest of the planet.

And I'm dead ass serious about the similarity of the Bushwhacko's actions to Hitler's known history. :|
 
Just a quick note since the topic isn't really worthy of discussion...

I love it when people think they know how "true Conservatives" should think/act when they aren't, nor ever have been one.😛 But hey - it's the intarweb - anyone can claim to know what "true Conservatives" should do/say.

:roll:

CkG
 
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Just a quick note since the topic isn't really worthy of discussion...

I love it when people think they know how "true Conservatives" should think/act when they aren't, nor ever have been one.😛 But hey - it's the intarweb - anyone can claim to know what "true Conservatives" should do/say.

:roll:

CkG
CkG -- Please don't take my word for it. Just direct the antenna on your aluminum foil beany to any competent dictionary for a definition of the word, conservative. :roll:
 
It's not the fact that Clinton lied about a blowjob that is the problem.

It's the fact that he lied, under oath, about a blowjob.

Hell, even Kobe Bryant got that part right. 😛
 
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
It's not the fact that Clinton lied about a blowjob that is the problem.

It's the fact that he lied, under oath, about a blowjob.
The fact that Clinton lied is not relevant. Everyone knows that, and Clinton even admitted it. The problem with Rip's original post is the second half of the title claiming that Bush didn't lie. That simply is not true.

I think it's funny that NOW, the Bushwhackies dribble in to say this thread is not worthy of discussion. It's so clear that Bush has lied about so many things of far more national and international importance than Clinton's sexual misconduct. So NOW, when some of those lies are listed, they try to minimize the relevance of the facts and the value of the thread. :roll: < shakes head in amazement >
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
It's not the fact that Clinton lied about a blowjob that is the problem.

It's the fact that he lied, under oath, about a blowjob.
The fact that Clinton lied is not relevant. Everyone knows that, and Clinton even admitted it. The problem with Rip's original post is the second half of the title claiming that Bush didn't lie. That simply is not true.

I think it's funny that NOW, the Bushwhackies dribble in to say this thread is not worthy of discussion. It's so clear that Bush has lied about so many things of far more national and international importance than Clinton's sexual misconduct. So NOW, when some of those lies are listed, they try to minimize the relevance of the facts and the value of the thread. :roll: < shakes head in amazement >

<neocon response>
So what?

Saddam's gone. That's all that matters.

</neocon response>
 
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Originally posted by: AcidicFury
Jewish World Review!?!?!??! COME ON!!!
One more post to prove my point

Thanks!

That point being???

Your post in that thread was complaining of anti-war.com being used as a source. Anti-war.com is actually a conservative site. You should be right in line with their views, eh?






Oh wait...you're a neoconservative. My bad.
 
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