Climate Change Deniers Using Same Methods as Tobacco Industry, Says Physicist

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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,693
15,946
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Well let's see:

NOAA funded by congress both parties and multiple administrations.
NASA funded by congress both parties and multiple administrations.
EPA funded by congress both parties and multiple administrations.

Was that what you were looking for?

Or did you mean there was a 60 year conspiracy among hundreds and thousands of scientists to dupe the masses into using green technology to usher in the new world order, that only libertarians can stop by rolling coal.
wierd-al-yankovic-foil-video-main.jpeg




Interesting articles. It says that globally the total mass of sea ice is shrinking. They also say that the Antarctic Ocean is warming and inductive of climate change.

The headline of course references the slight trend in increasing Antarctic sea ice extent or area. Of course increasing or decreasing area doesn't tell us anything about how much ice there is. That would require the volume or mass. It's hard to get accurate measurements of Antarctic ice mass. The last I saw showed significant decreases in ice mass back in 09. So it looks like the ice is spreading but thinning. Likely due to the aforementioned warming of the Antarctic Ocean.

Teslas have a larger Carbon footprint than some combustion-engine vehicles.
They still get their power from burning at the power plant.Then there's all the battery components..

I'd need to see a reference for how that it is. The Tesla pretty much has the same interior as any other luxury car. It may have more copper and less aluminum or steel due to the electric motors over a standard IC engine. There is also the lithium as you alluded to.

Here in Texas, since we have deregulated power, I could buy my electricity from an all green provider. So no it doesn't mean they have to produce emissions. Even if the electric power comes from a normal utility, coal and especially natural gas produce less CO2 per unit of energy than a gasoline IC engine does.


Hope this helps you out! ;)
 
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Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
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http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/06/prweb11949905.htm



With so many deceived people posting here I wonder what they will say about this. :colbert:

To help corroborate JulesMaximus' effort to relate climate change denialists with the tobacco lobby, I recalled this article:

The Manufactured Doubt industry and the hacked email controversy

By: Dr. Jeff Masters , 3:07 PM GMT on November 25, 2009



In 1954, the tobacco industry realized it had a serious problem. Thirteen scientific studies had been published over the preceding five years linking smoking to lung cancer. With the public growing increasingly alarmed about the health effects of smoking, the tobacco industry had to move quickly to protect profits and stem the tide of increasingly worrisome scientific news. Big Tobacco turned to one the world's five largest public relations firms, Hill and Knowlton, to help out. Hill and Knowlton designed a brilliant Public Relations (PR) campaign to convince the public that smoking is not dangerous. They encouraged the tobacco industry to set up their own research organization, the Council for Tobacco Research (CTR), which would produce science favorable to the industry, emphasize doubt in all the science linking smoking to lung cancer, and question all independent research unfavorable to the tobacco industry. The CTR did a masterful job at this for decades, significantly delaying and reducing regulation of tobacco products. George Washington University epidemiologist David Michaels, who is President Obama's nominee to head the Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA), wrote a meticulously researched 2008 book called, Doubt is Their Product: How Industry's Assault on Science Threatens Your Health. In the book, he wrote: "the industry understood that the public is in no position to distinguish good science from bad. Create doubt, uncertainty, and confusion. Throw mud at the anti-smoking research under the assumption that some of it is bound to stick. And buy time, lots of it, in the bargain". The title of Michaels' book comes from a 1969 memo from a tobacco company executive: "Doubt is our product since it is the best means of competing with the 'body of fact' that exists in the minds of the general public. It is also the means of establishing a controversy". Hill and Knowlton, on behalf of the tobacco industry, had founded the "Manufactured Doubt" industry.

The Manufactured Doubt industry grows up
As the success of Hill and Knowlton's brilliant Manufactured Doubt campaign became apparent, other industries manufacturing dangerous products hired the firm to design similar PR campaigns. In 1967, Hill and Knowlton helped asbestos industry giant Johns-Manville set up the Asbestos Information Association (AIA). The official-sounding AIA produced "sound science" that questioned the link between asbestos and lung diseases (asbestos currently kills 90,000 people per year, according to the World Health Organization). Manufacturers of lead, vinyl chloride, beryllium, and dioxin products also hired Hill and Knowlton to devise product defense strategies to combat the numerous scientific studies showing that their products were harmful to human health.

By the 1980s, the Manufactured Doubt industry gradually began to be dominated by more specialized "product defense" firms and free enterprise "think tanks". Michaels wrote in Doubt is Their Product about the specialized "product defense" firms: "Having cut their teeth manufacturing uncertainty for Big Tobacco, scientists at ChemRisk, the Weinberg Group, Exponent, Inc., and other consulting firms now battle the regulatory agencies on behalf of the manufacturers of benzene, beryllium, chromium, MTBE, perchlorates, phthalates, and virtually every other toxic chemical in the news today....Public health interests are beside the point. This is science for hire, period, and it is extremely lucrative".

Joining the specialized "product defense" firms were the so-called "think tanks". These front groups received funding from manufacturers of dangerous products and produced "sound science" in support of their funders' products, in the name of free enterprise and free markets. Think tanks such as the George C. Marshall Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute, Heartland Institute, and Dr. Fred Singer's SEPP (Science and Environmental Policy Project) have all been active for decades in the Manufactured Doubt business, generating misleading science and false controversy to protect the profits of their clients who manufacture dangerous products.

The ozone hole battle
In 1975, the chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) industry realized it had a serious problem. The previous year, Sherry Rowland and Mario Molina, chemists at the University of California, Irvine, had published a scientific paper warning that human-generated CFCs could cause serious harm to Earth's protective ozone layer. They warned that the loss of ozone would significantly increase the amount of skin-damaging ultraviolet UV-B light reaching the surface, greatly increasing skin cancer and cataracts. The loss of stratospheric ozone could also significantly cool the stratosphere, potentially causing destructive climate change. Although no stratospheric ozone loss had been observed yet, CFCs should be banned, they said. The CFC industry hired Hill and Knowlton to fight back. As is essential in any Manufactured Doubt campaign, Hill and Knowlton found a respected scientist to lead the effort--noted British scientist Richard Scorer, a former editor of the International Journal of Air Pollution and author of several books on pollution. In 1975, Scorer went on a month-long PR tour, blasting Molina and Rowland, calling them "doomsayers", and remarking, "The only thing that has been accumulated so far is a number of theories." To complement Scorer's efforts, Hill and Knowlton unleashed their standard package of tricks learned from decades of serving the tobacco industry:

- Launch a public relations campaign disputing the evidence.

- Predict dire economic consequences, and ignore the cost benefits.

- Use non-peer reviewed scientific publications or industry-funded scientists who don't publish original peer-reviewed scientific work to support your point of view.

- Trumpet discredited scientific studies and myths supporting your point of view as scientific fact.

- Point to the substantial scientific uncertainty, and the certainty of economic loss if immediate action is taken.

- Use data from a local area to support your views, and ignore the global evidence.

- Disparage scientists, saying they are playing up uncertain predictions of doom in order to get research funding.

- Disparage environmentalists, claiming they are hyping environmental problems in order to further their ideological goals.

- Complain that it is unfair to require regulatory action in the U.S., as it would put the nation at an economic disadvantage compared to the rest of the world.

- Claim that more research is needed before action should be taken.

- Argue that it is less expensive to live with the effects.

The campaign worked, and CFC regulations were delayed many years, as Hill and Knowlton boasted in internal documents. The PR firm also took credit for keeping public opinion against buying CFC aerosols to a minimum, and helping change the editorial positions of many newspapers.

In the end, Hill and Knowlton's PR campaign casting doubt on the science of ozone depletion by CFCs turned out to have no merit. Molina and Rowland were awarded the Nobel Prize in 1995. The citation from the Nobel committee credited them with helping to deliver the Earth from a potential environmental disaster.

The battle over global warming
In 1988, the fossil fuel industry realized it had a serious problem. The summer of 1988 had shattered century-old records for heat and drought in the U.S., and NASA's Dr. James Hansen, one of the foremost climate scientists in the world, testified before Congress that human-caused global warming was partially to blame. A swelling number of scientific studies were warning of the threat posed by human-cause climate change, and that consumption of fossil fuels needed to slow down. Naturally, the fossil fuel industry fought back. They launched a massive PR campaign that continues to this day, led by the same think tanks that worked to discredit the ozone depletion theory. The George C. Marshall Institute, the Competitive Enterprise Institute, Heartland Institute, and Dr. Fred Singer's SEPP (Science and Environmental Policy Project) have all been key players in both fights, and there are numerous other think tanks involved. Many of the same experts who had worked hard to discredit the science of the well-established link between cigarette smoke and cancer, the danger the CFCs posed to the ozone layer, and the dangers to health posed by a whole host of toxic chemicals, were now hard at work to discredit the peer-reviewed science supporting human-caused climate change.

As is the case with any Manufactured Doubt campaign, a respected scientist was needed to lead the battle. One such scientist was Dr. Frederick Seitz, a physicist who in the 1960s chaired the organization many feel to be the most prestigious science organization in the world--the National Academy of Sciences. Seitz took a position as a paid consultant for R.J. Reynolds tobacco company beginning in 1978, so was well-versed in the art of Manufactured Doubt. According to the excellent new book, Climate Cover-up, written by desmogblog.com co-founder James Hoggan and Richard Littlemore, over a 10-year period Seitz was responsible for handing out $45 million in tobacco company money to researchers who overwhelmingly failed to link tobacco to anything the least bit negative. Seitz received over $900,000 in compensation for his efforts. He later became a founder of the George C. Marshall Institute, and used his old National Academy of Sciences affiliation to lend credibility to his attacks on global warming science until his death in 2008 at the age of ninety-six. It was Seitz who launched the "Oregon Petition", which contains the signatures of more than 34,000 scientists saying global warming is probably natural and not a crisis. The petition is a regular feature of the Manufactured Doubt campaign against human-caused global warming. The petition lists the "Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine" as its parent organization. According to Climate Cover-up, the Institute is a farm shed situated a couple of miles outside of Cave Junction, OR (population 17,000). The Institute lists seven faculty members, two of whom are dead, and has no ongoing research and no students. It publishes creationist-friendly homeschooler curriculums books on surviving nuclear war. The petition was sent to scientists and was accompanied by a 12-page review printed in exactly the same style used for the prestigious journal, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. A letter from Seitz, who is prominently identified as a former National Academy of Sciences president, accompanied the petition and review. Naturally, many recipients took this to be an official National Academy of Sciences communication, and signed the petition as a result. The National Academy issued a statement in April 2008, clarifying that it had not issued the petition, and that its position on global warming was the opposite. The petition contains no contact information for the signers, making it impossible to verify. In its August 2006 issue, Scientific American presented its attempt to verify the petition. They found that the scientists were almost all people with undergraduate degrees, with no record of research and no expertise in climatology. Scientific American contacted a random sample of 26 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to have a Ph.D. in a climate related science. Eleven said they agreed with the petition, six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember the petition, one had died, and five did not respond.

I could say much more about the Manufactured Doubt campaign being waged against the science of climate change and global warming, but it would fill an entire book. In fact, it has, and I recommend reading Climate Cover-up to learn more. The main author, James Hoggan, owns a Canadian public relations firm, and is intimately familiar with how public relations campaigns work. Suffice to say, the Manufactured Doubt campaign against global warming--funded by the richest corporations in world history--is probably the most extensive and expensive such effort ever. We don't really know how much money the fossil fuel industry has pumped into its Manufactured Doubt campaign, since they don't have to tell us. The website exxonsecrets.org estimates that ExxonMobil alone spent $20 million between 1998 - 2007 on the effort. An analysis done by Desmogblog's Kevin Grandia done in January 2009 found that skeptical global warming content on the web had doubled over the past year. Someone is paying for all that content.

Lobbyists, not skeptical scientists
The history of the Manufactured Doubt industry provides clear lessons in evaluating the validity of their attacks on the published peer-reviewed climate change science. One should trust that the think tanks and allied "skeptic" bloggers such as Steve McIntyre of Climate Audit and Anthony Watts of Watts Up With That will give information designed to protect the profits of the fossil fuel industry. Yes, there are respected scientists with impressive credentials that these think tanks use to voice their views, but these scientists have given up their objectivity and are now working as lobbyists. I don't like to call them skeptics, because all good scientists should be skeptics. Rather, the think tanks scientists are contrarians, bent on discrediting an accepted body of published scientific research for the benefit of the richest and most powerful corporations in history. Virtually none of the "sound science" they are pushing would ever get published in a serious peer-reviewed scientific journal, and indeed the contrarians are not scientific researchers. They are lobbyists. Many of them seem to believe their tactics are justified, since they are fighting a righteous war against eco-freaks determined to trash the economy.

...

Let's look at the amount of money being spent on lobbying efforts by the fossil fuel industry compared to environmental groups to see their relative influence. According to Center for Public Integrity, there are currently 2,663 climate change lobbyists working on Capitol Hill. That's five lobbyists for every member of Congress. Climate lobbyists working for major industries outnumber those working for environmental, health, and alternative energy groups by more than seven to one. For the second quarter of 2009, here is a list compiled by the Center for Public Integrity of all the oil, gas, and coal mining groups that spent more than $100,000 on lobbying (this includes all lobbying, not just climate change lobbying):

Chevron $6,485,000
Exxon Mobil $4,657,000
BP America $4,270,000
ConocoPhillips $3,300,000
American Petroleum Institute $2,120,000
Marathon Oil Corporation $2,110,000
Peabody Investments Corp $1,110,000
Bituminous Coal Operators Association $980,000
Shell Oil Company $950,000
Arch Coal, Inc $940,000
Williams Companies $920,000
Flint Hills Resources $820,000
Occidental Petroleum Corporation $794,000
National Mining Association $770,000
American Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity $714,000
Devon Energy $695,000
Sunoco $585,000
Independent Petroleum Association of America $434,000
Murphy Oil USA, Inc $430,000
Peabody Energy $420,000
Rio Tinto Services, Inc $394,000
America's Natural Gas Alliance $300,000
Interstate Natural Gas Association of America $290,000
El Paso Corporation $261,000
Spectra Energy $279,000
National Propane Gas Association $242,000
National Petrochemical & Refiners Association $240,000
Nexen, Inc $230,000
Denbury Resources $200,000
Nisource, Inc $180,000
Petroleum Marketers Association of America $170,000
Valero Energy Corporation $160,000
Bituminous Coal Operators Association $131,000
Natural Gas Supply Association $114,000
Tesoro Companies $119,000

Here are the environmental groups that spent more than $100,000:

Environmental Defense Action Fund $937,500
Nature Conservancy $650,000
Natural Resources Defense Council $277,000
Earthjustice Legal Defense Fund $243,000
National Parks and Conservation Association $175,000
Sierra Club $120,000
Defenders of Wildlife $120,000
Environmental Defense Fund $100,000

If you add it all up, the fossil fuel industry outspent the environmental groups by $36.8 million to $2.6 million in the second quarter, a factor of 14 to 1. To be fair, not all of that lobbying is climate change lobbying, but that affects both sets of numbers. The numbers don't even include lobbying money from other industries lobbying against climate change, such as the auto industry, U.S. Chamber of Commerce, etc.

Corporate profits vs. corporate social responsibility
I'm sure I've left the impression that I disapprove of what the Manufactured Doubt industry is doing. On the contrary, I believe that for the most part, the corporations involved have little choice under the law but to protect their profits by pursuing Manufactured Doubt campaigns, as long as they are legal. The law in all 50 U.S. states has a provision similar to Maine's section 716, "The directors and officers of a corporation shall exercise their powers and discharge their duties with a view to the interest of the corporation and of the shareholders". There is no clause at the end that adds, "...but not at the expense of the environment, human rights, the public safety, the communities in which the corporation operates, or the dignity of employees". The law makes a company's board of directors legally liable for "breach of fiduciary responsibility" if they knowingly manage a company in a way that reduces profits. Shareholders can and have sued companies for being overly socially responsible, and not paying enough attention to the bottom line. We can reward corporations that are managed in a socially responsible way with our business and give them incentives to act thusly, but there are limits to how far Corporate Socially Responsibility (CSR) can go. For example, car manufacturer Henry Ford was successfully sued by stockholders in 1919 for raising the minimum wage of his workers to $5 per day. The courts declared that, while Ford's humanitarian sentiments about his employees were nice, his business existed to make profits for its stockholders.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
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Could you try that again in English?

1: I already stand behind AGW. Our CO2 emissions will warm the planet.
2: I believe it is minimal, and observations from the 20th century are almost entirely influenced by the Ocean Cycles, specifically the PDO and AMO.
3: I believe man's contribution can be more accurately discerned while the PDO and AMO are negative and not pumping heat into the atmosphere.

If the warming continues it would be the first noticeable divergence from the Ocean Cycle in the history of our temperature record. THAT would be a significant development worthy of consideration.

I've already said these things multiple times.
Yes you continue to say this but I keep on explaining why the effects are the way they are. Why it won't increase quickly during the current cycle. Why global warming effects more than one part. Plus these different parts effect each other in different ways.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
That's how I see it too.
But I think the tide is turning. I see a lot of solar on the roofs, and costs are coming down. $35,000 Teslas. What people don't realize is that we are a battery advance away, either in terms of manufacturing cost or capacity, from electric car being superior to gasoline powered one for the majority of drivers.
On top of that, young people are just not that into cars, and a lot of them prefer higher density more energy efficient urban apartments to suburban sprawl where you have to drive everywhere.
If we could develop a cheap manufacturing process for 20-year solar panels of similar efficiency to what we now have, we'd be all solar, almost all the time. Most single family homes have sufficient roof room to meet all their energy needs at current efficiencies, meaning we'd have sufficient energy pumped into the grid to handle peak load periods and could run time shifting and storage to minimize our fossil fuel needs. We could easily shift to home design with shed roofs covered with solar panels in most areas, and the solar panels would protect roofing from direct solar gain and, not being broadly in contact with the roof, prevent direct transfer into attic space (Google Chinese roof.) Instead of replacing your roofing after twenty years, you'd just replace your solar panels with the latest model.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,827
6,782
126
If we could develop a cheap manufacturing process for 20-year solar panels of similar efficiency to what we now have, we'd be all solar, almost all the time. Most single family homes have sufficient roof room to meet all their energy needs at current efficiencies, meaning we'd have sufficient energy pumped into the grid to handle peak load periods and could run time shifting and storage to minimize our fossil fuel needs. We could easily shift to home design with shed roofs covered with solar panels in most areas, and the solar panels would protect roofing from direct solar gain and, not being broadly in contact with the roof, prevent direct transfer into attic space (Google Chinese roof.) Instead of replacing your roofing after twenty years, you'd just replace your solar panels with the latest model.

Did you google Chinese roof?
 

row

Senior member
May 28, 2013
314
0
71
A paper published today in Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics finds that only about 3.75% [15 ppm] of the CO2 in the lower atmosphere is man-made from the burning of fossil fuels, and thus, the vast remainder of the 400 ppm atmospheric CO2 is from land-use changes and natural sources such as ocean outgassing and plant respiration.

According to the authors,

We find that the average gradients of fossil fuel CO2 in the lower 1200 meters of the atmosphere are close to 15 ppm at a 12 km × 12 km horizontal resolution.

The findings are in stark contrast to alarmist claims that essentially all of the alleged 130 ppm increase in CO2 since pre-industrial times is of man-made origin from the burning of fossil fuels, finding instead that only 15 ppm or ~11.5% of the increase is of fossil fuel origin. The findings cast additional doubt upon the IPCC carbon-cycle Bern Model, previously falsified by the atomic bomb tests.

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2014/07/new-paper-finds-only-375-of-atmospheric.html?spref=tw
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
A paper published today in Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics finds that only about 3.75% [15 ppm] of the CO2 in the lower atmosphere is man-made from the burning of fossil fuels, and thus, the vast remainder of the 400 ppm atmospheric CO2 is from land-use changes and natural sources such as ocean outgassing and plant respiration.

According to the authors,

We find that the average gradients of fossil fuel CO2 in the lower 1200 meters of the atmosphere are close to 15 ppm at a 12 km × 12 km horizontal resolution.

The findings are in stark contrast to alarmist claims that essentially all of the alleged 130 ppm increase in CO2 since pre-industrial times is of man-made origin from the burning of fossil fuels, finding instead that only 15 ppm or ~11.5% of the increase is of fossil fuel origin. The findings cast additional doubt upon the IPCC carbon-cycle Bern Model, previously falsified by the atomic bomb tests.

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2014/07/new-paper-finds-only-375-of-atmospheric.html?spref=tw

It was already known that the CO2 in the atmosphere only has a very small amount of CO2 from burning fossil fuels. But that is simply due to it's life time in the atmosphere. But most of it is simply swapped with CO2 from the ocean. So you have a large increase in CO2 in the atmosphere due to man. It's just not the exact same particles that were put into the atmosphere.

If people would stop reading these misinformation blogs and instead looked at the actual science they would get a better idea of what is going on. All these sites do is troll the internet
 
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xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
It was already known that the CO2 in the atmosphere only has a very small amount of CO2 from burning fossil fuels. But that is simply due to it's life time in the atmosphere. But most of it is simply swapped with CO2 from the ocean. So you have a large increase in CO2 in the atmosphere due to man. It's just not the exact same particles that were put into the atmosphere.

You need to explain the bolded again. The train of thought you were trying to outline doesn't seem to follow that. If CO2 in the atmosphere is swapped with CO2 in the ocean then there is no net change to CO2 in the atmosphere, regardless of the source, right?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You need to explain the bolded again. The train of thought you were trying to outline doesn't seem to follow that. If CO2 in the atmosphere is swapped with CO2 in the ocean then there is no net change to CO2 in the atmosphere, regardless of the source, right?
Mother Earth knows which CO2 comes from evil Republicans. Therefore she hides that CO2 in the oceans where no one can find it and swaps it for fresh, natural CO2 from the oceans. It goes something like this:

1. Hide man-made CO2.
2. ?
3. Big Earth profit!

I suspect #2 will eventually be proved to be science. That's only fair as so much of science has been proven to be #2.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
You need to explain the bolded again. The train of thought you were trying to outline doesn't seem to follow that. If CO2 in the atmosphere is swapped with CO2 in the ocean then there is no net change to CO2 in the atmosphere, regardless of the source, right?

Lets say I start with 90 units of CO2 in the atmosphere, I then put 10 unit's into the atmosphere. we are up to 100 units of CO2 in the atmosphere. 10 unit's of mine, 90 of stuff already there. These units exchange with 100 units in the ocean. Now if I measure the atmosphere I will simply get 100 units of stuff already there and you won't see the 10 that I added. If I keep on adding 10 units and these keep on getting exchanged. It will only look like I have added 10 units at any point in time. So if I add another 10 units, we get to 110 still only 10 from me, and 100 background. Then exchanged and 110 stuff already there, then I can add another 10, get to 120,...

The amount of measured CO2 in the atmosphere from fossil fuel is only from the previous few years. After that it will have been exchanged with other CO2.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Mother Earth knows which CO2 comes from evil Republicans. Therefore she hides that CO2 in the oceans where no one can find it and swaps it for fresh, natural CO2 from the oceans. It goes something like this:

1. Hide man-made CO2.
2. ?
3. Big Earth profit!

I suspect #2 will eventually be proved to be science. That's only fair as so much of science has been proven to be #2.

I think there is pretty clear evidence that CO2 levels in the ocean are rising. You cant really track a single molecule so it may go into the ocean, air, plant or many other places. The net effect of CO2 is still there though.

This is a pretty good idea of what is going on here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmpzDfrqliU



The increase in CO2 in our oceans is changing where calcium carbonate can no longer be sustained and things like coral and creature shells start to break down. We are in fact seeing this now with reefs around the world. Its possible that they could be unrelated, but then you are getting into faith and not science.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I think there is pretty clear evidence that CO2 levels in the ocean are rising. You cant really track a single molecule so it may go into the ocean, air, plant or many other places. The net effect of CO2 is still there though.

This is a pretty good idea of what is going on here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmpzDfrqliU

The increase in CO2 in our oceans is changing where calcium carbonate can no longer be sustained and things like coral and creature shells start to break down. We are in fact seeing this now with reefs around the world. Its possible that they could be unrelated, but then you are getting into faith and not science.
Understood, and ocean CO2 definitely tracks with temperature and atmospheric concentration. My issue isn't with that but rather with the mindset that makes wild leaps of faith to keep the dream alive.

GAIAHunter put my mind to ease on ocean acidification. Reefs may be a special circumstance though; being inherently shallow water, they are more subject to freshwater runoff and even rain. Reefs tend to be ancient and have undoubtedly seen high CO2 concentrations, but not necessarily in conjunction with uniquely human stressors.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Its just computer models, you guys know that right? The climate models have a history of exaggerating how much warming we will see. I'm not a big fan of climate scientists, its not very good science.

I'm not saying we aren't warming, because we are. I just don't think the climate scientists can explain it with their little computer models any better than anyone else. History is the best guide but they seem to ignore that and use models. Such bad science.

http://nature.nps.gov/geology/nationalfossilday/climate_change_earth_history.cfm

That is good science... got it?

http://nature.nps.gov/geology/nationalfossilday/climate_change_modern.cfm

Except the conclusion is a bit wrong you can't really do jack shit except move to the right spot :awe:
 
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abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
A paper published today in Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics finds that only about 3.75% [15 ppm] of the CO2 in the lower atmosphere is man-made from the burning of fossil fuels, and thus, the vast remainder of the 400 ppm atmospheric CO2 is from land-use changes and natural sources such as ocean outgassing and plant respiration.

According to the authors,

We find that the average gradients of fossil fuel CO2 in the lower 1200 meters of the atmosphere are close to 15 ppm at a 12 km × 12 km horizontal resolution.

The findings are in stark contrast to alarmist claims that essentially all of the alleged 130 ppm increase in CO2 since pre-industrial times is of man-made origin from the burning of fossil fuels, finding instead that only 15 ppm or ~11.5% of the increase is of fossil fuel origin. The findings cast additional doubt upon the IPCC carbon-cycle Bern Model, previously falsified by the atomic bomb tests.

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2014/07/new-paper-finds-only-375-of-atmospheric.html?spref=tw

What a crap blog, written by idiots who don't even understand the paper they are completely misconstruing. Talk about intellectual dishonesty. This is exactly why non-scientists should not try to attempt to interpret and then explain results of a paper to other non-scientific people.

What the authors of the paper were doing was trying to determine whether the concentration of an isotope of CO2 (14CO2) was being impacted by emissions from a nuclear power plant, and if it could be used as a surrogate marker of fossil fuel release (since fossil fuels don't yield 14CO2). They found in their work that in an area without significant influence from nuclear reactors (near Germany) was not significantly impacted by nuclear emissions, thus the primary source of CO2 there was fossil fuels.

They found in a 6 month period there was an change of 15 ppm of the isotope of CO2 (14CO2).

How the f--k that moronic blog gets the idea that a change in 15 ppm in 6 months suddenly represents ALL man-made CO2 produced in the past 200 years, I have no freaking clue. If anything, that result is frightening, that a single area in only 6 months can change the CO2 by 15 ppm...

I suggest you delete the links to that dishonest blog, they are exactly reason why people don't understand the science, people like them completely f--k it up.
 
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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,693
15,946
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Not all carbon is equal.

Most of it is C12. Some of it is C13 or C14 which are mostly formed in the atmosphere due to cosmic rays. (Big spikes of C14 were caused by atmospheric nuclear testing back in the 50's.)

Natural CO2 has varying levels of C13/14. Fossil fuels are basically all C12 and don't have the same ratio. So if we are adding CO2 to the atmosphere we would expect to see the ratios of C13/14 drop compared to C12. Which is what we see.

Not to mention the stock prices of fossil fuel companies are partly based on how many barrels or barrel equivalents they reportedly sell. And it's not like we don't understand the process of combustion.

When people say the CO2 doesn't come from man made sources or ocean currents will globally raise or lower the Earths temperature that means something. It means your hypothesis better not violate conservation of mass and energy. That's science that is settled.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
These units exchange with 100 units in the ocean. Now if I measure the atmosphere I will simply get 100 units of stuff already there and you won't see the 10 that I added.

If you measured 100 instead of 90 then absolutely you saw the 10 that you added. If you then add 10 more and they are exchanged, you still are going to measure 110, not 100 like you said. How can you add something, exchange it or swap it, and then end up with less than you started with?

Your whole premise is flawed. You are acting as if though the exchange is creating or destroying matter, which doesn't sound like a swap or exchange as you say.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
If you measured 100 instead of 90 then absolutely you saw the 10 that you added. If you then add 10 more and they are exchanged, you still are going to measure 110, not 100 like you said. How can you add something, exchange it or swap it, and then end up with less than you started with?

Your whole premise is flawed. You are acting as if though the exchange is creating or destroying matter, which doesn't sound like a swap or exchange as you say.

I will try to explain it again later, you can look up the carbon cycle in the meantime. Basically it moves from place to place so the CO2 you add won't be the same as what is in the atmosphere. The amount of CO2 you added will still be there it will just be different CO2 than what you added.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,693
15,946
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I will try to explain it again later, you can look up the carbon cycle in the meantime. Basically it moves from place to place so the CO2 you add won't be the same as what is in the atmosphere. The amount of CO2 you added will still be there it will just be different CO2 than what you added.

NASA just got it's Orbiting Carbon Observatory (2) into orbit. It will map global CO2 concentrations. So we should get some pretty detailed maps of the carbon cycle.

OCO 1 was supposed to go up in 09 but it didn't reach it's orbit after a fairing failed to separate if I remember correctly.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
How the f--k that moronic blog gets the idea that a change in 15 ppm in 6 months suddenly represents ALL man-made CO2 produced in the past 200 years, I have no freaking clue. If anything, that result is frightening, that a single area in only 6 months can change the CO2 by 15 ppm...

I think that is a bit over hyped but in general your point is good. This study was a simulation and we can't really draw much more out of it other than they are attempting to validate a model. The blog really overreaches the conclusions of this small study.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Understood, and ocean CO2 definitely tracks with temperature and atmospheric concentration. My issue isn't with that but rather with the mindset that makes wild leaps of faith to keep the dream alive.

GAIAHunter put my mind to ease on ocean acidification. Reefs may be a special circumstance though; being inherently shallow water, they are more subject to freshwater runoff and even rain. Reefs tend to be ancient and have undoubtedly seen high CO2 concentrations, but not necessarily in conjunction with uniquely human stressors.

At this point, its pretty clear that I respect you, so when I ask this, its not a veiled rhetorical insult.

We saw something happen, came up with ideas, tested the ideas, and everything fits the model for what is happening to coral. There is an inherent possibility that anything could be something else, but its usually very unlikely. So, what makes you believe that its not what the model is predicting, and something not measured?

It seems the faith is not on the side of science.
 

schmuckley

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2011
2,335
1
0
It's official; climate change deniers won't shut up, until people start bursting into flames in front of their eyes,.. or, they themselves start to suffer.

Of course, fixing this won't just involve quitting smoking. In fact, you probably won't be after to fix this, when it gets bad,...

I just wish there was a way to slow down and fix this, before things get terribly out of hand....

There is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzEEgtOFFlM

georgia-guidestones-top-commandments.jpg


That is the end-game goal of global warming scientists/backers.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
There is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzEEgtOFFlM

georgia-guidestones-top-commandments.jpg


That is the end-game goal of global warming scientists/backers.

I'm a backer, and I think a global population of 500 mill is stupid. I do think however, that unless we become more efficient, we will start running out of resources, and people will die. So I do think there will be a population reduction, but removing 6.1 billion people is not what I think will happen.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,954
10,298
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What a crap blog, written by idiots who don't even understand the paper they are completely misconstruing. Talk about intellectual dishonesty. This is exactly why non-scientists should not try to attempt to interpret and then explain results of a paper to other non-scientific people.

You get public opinion the moment you desire action from public policy.

You gentlemen have done a fantastic job of explaining the fallacy of the blog's interpretation. Anyone that takes the time to examine it will find your arguments a solid rebuttal, which elevates your opinion and standing over that blog.

Don't be afraid of open discussion, embrace it. The truth will win in the end, whatever it may be.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,940
8,525
136
You get public opinion the moment you desire action from public policy.

You gentlemen have done a fantastic job of explaining the fallacy of the blog's interpretation. Anyone that takes the time to examine it will find your arguments a solid rebuttal, which elevates your opinion and standing over that blog.

Don't be afraid of open discussion, embrace it. The truth will win in the end, whatever it may be.

Excellent post overall, especially the bolded. :thumbsup::thumbsup: