Climate Change Deniers Using Same Methods as Tobacco Industry, Says Physicist

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Nov 25, 2013
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There is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzEEgtOFFlM

georgia-guidestones-top-commandments.jpg


That is the end-game goal of global warming scientists/backers.

"Agenda 21 is a non-binding, voluntarily implemented action plan of the United Nations with regard to sustainable development.[1] "

Maybe try a new brand of tin foil. The brand you are using now doesn't seem to be working. Maybe check with Stewox to see what brand he uses.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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So one true believer says the deniers are engaging in the same kind of campaign of tobacco. And that's relevant how?

Again, what does belief have to do with it?

just because belief might be necessary for your sky fairy, such is not the case with science.

Please, first learn to separate the concept of belief from observable data, then you might prepare your mind for unfettered knowledge.

Just because you and your inbred knuckle-dragging cronies call science a "belief," does not make it so. This should be simple enough for you to understand.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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Longer growing seasons, increased CO2 leading to better crop yields, offset by some rise in sea levels, warmer temps.

lol.

that also allows arthropods--which included spiders--to grow to the size of a volkswagon.

GL with your spider-ruled Eden, Paco.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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At this point, its pretty clear that I respect you, so when I ask this, its not a veiled rhetorical insult.

We saw something happen, came up with ideas, tested the ideas, and everything fits the model for what is happening to coral. There is an inherent possibility that anything could be something else, but its usually very unlikely. So, what makes you believe that its not what the model is predicting, and something not measured?

It seems the faith is not on the side of science.
My point was that there is a LOT of such modeling going on within climate science. We have a model, it predicts X, we observe Y. Instead of admitting the model does not work, we then come up with a hypothetical excuse that we can tack onto our model to explain the observed reality while pretending that the model DOES work. Now admittedly this is part of the scientific method to a degree, but it is NOT settled science, and within climate science it has been taken to such an extreme as to make the basic theory unfalsifiable.

I liken it to measurements of the rate of the universe's expansion. We KNEW the expansion was slowing; the models all required it. Therefore every experimental measurement showed a deceleration. If one's observations showed a positive acceleration, one massaged the data until they showed a deceleration or else declared the experiment a failure. Then we got good equipment into space and found the models were completely wrong - but for decades the experiments' results all matched the model because otherwise they were not valid experimental results. That the universe's expansion was decelerating was settled science; we were only looking for the rate. Only problem was that the settled science was completely wrong in spite of many very smart people studying it.

To a large extent, science finds what it expects to find.

lol.

that also allows arthropods--which included spiders--to grow to the size of a volkswagon.

GL with your spider-ruled Eden, Paco.
Pretty sure it's not excess CO2 that makes VW-sized spiders, dude.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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Well to add more fuel to the fire, so to speak, apparently not all climate models are equal.

Climate models that accidentally got El Niño right also show warming slowdown
We've been stuck in cool, La Niña state for most of the past decade.


(This one's for you Jasklas! ;) )

Basically they took the most accurate models that could model El-Niño and the Southern Oscillation, seeded them with different initial conditions, forced historical data from 1880-2005 through them and then saw which ones correctly predicted the last 8 years. The ones that correctly predicted the current El-niño conditions also showed the observed slower rise in atmospheric temperature. The models included all the normal CO2 forcings.

Spend any amount of time reading climate arguments on the Internet, and you'll undoubtedly hear some version of the following argument: the Earth hasn't warmed in 17 years, and none of the climate models predicted that. Although there are a lot of problems with that statement (including the fact that it has warmed a bit), it's probably safe to say that the warming hasn't been as intense as many scientists expected.

Of course, to a scientist, unmet expectations are an opportunity, so a variety of papers have looked into why this has happened. They've found that, while volcanic eruptions seem to have contributed to the relatively slow rise in temperatures, a major player has been the El Niño/Southern Oscillation (ENSO), which has been stuck in a cool, La Niña state for most of the last decade. And, since climate models aren't expected to accurately forecast each El Niño, there would be no reason to expect that they would match the actual atmospheric record.

At least not intentionally. But some researchers have found that, simply by chance, a few of the models do produce an accurate ENSO pattern. And when those models are examined in detail, it turns out they match the existing temperature record pretty well.

The issue the new paper examines comes down to the difference between long-term climate trends and intermediate-term variations. In the long-term, the state of the climate is set by things like solar activity, orbital mechanics, and greenhouse gas levels, among other things. But on shorter time scales, things like volcanic activity and ocean cycles can have a profound effect on temperatures.

Coupled climate models that include both the atmosphere and the oceans accurately reproduce the behavior of the major ocean cycles, including the ENSO. But, since the onset of changes in the ocean is chaotic, the models generally don't get the timing right—the model may show an El Niño starting three years earlier than it does in reality.

If you're interested in how the models behave over a specific part of the historic record, that mismatch can be a problem, but there are several approaches to dealing with it. You can, for example, subtract out the influence of things like volcanoes and ocean circulation to see what the climate is doing without them. Or, rather than letting your model generate its own ENSO, you can force it to replay historic events in order to see what those do to the temperatures.

The new paper adds an additional approach to handling the problem: simply run a bunch of models and pick those that, by accident, accurately reproduced the ocean's chaotic behavior. The authors started with the CMIP5 collection of climate models and selected the 18 models that include an ocean simulation that's sophisticated enough to provide data on the state of ENSO and other ocean behavior. They started these 18 models in 1880 and used historical forcings (solar activity, greenhouse gas concentrations, etc.) up until 2005, then switched to a standard emission scenario until stopping the models in 2012.

If you look at the four models that were the worst at reproducing ENSO behavior, then you'd think climate modelers were incompetent, as these models all showed rapid warming from 1990 onward. But, if you picked the four that had the best match to real-world ENSO data, then you see exactly what reality produced: a relatively slow rate of warming starting at about the beginning of the century.

The match isn't perfect, as the models leave out other forcings, like volcanoes, and they don't get all the details of the ENSO exactly right. But it's certainly another piece of evidence that ENSO activity has been critical for the recent behavior of our climate system.

Ars talked to climate scientists Gavin Schmidt and Michael Mann, who both emphasized that the new paper is in keeping with a variety of other studies that have come out in the recent past, with Mann saying, "This looks like a thoughtful and careful analysis that adds further weight to other recent studies (including our own recent GRL ‘Frontier’ article) confirming that the temperature trends of the past decade do not, as some have claimed, contradict model-predicted global warming. The so-called 'speed bump' in global warming is consistent with the expected random fluctuations associated with natural, internal climate variability."

But if the paper's a solid bit of evidence that's in keeping with other results, it seems likely that it was meant to be a bit more than that: ammunition in the arguments that keep erupting on the Internet. In a rather unusual situation for a climate paper, one of the authors is a psychologist. And not just any psychologist, but Stephan Lewandowsky, best known for whipping climate contrarians (and journal editors) into a frenzy with his "Recursive Fury" paper. And the last author is Naomi Oreskes, a historian of science best known for her book Merchants of Doubt, which chronicles the role of think tanks in fostering doubt over the reality of climate change.

Regardless of why these two researchers decided to step into the realm of climate science, their paper clearly shows that some climate models have accurately predicted the recent slowdown in warming. But only because they accidentally got El Niño right.

So ENSO is important to make accurate short term climate models. And we're still warming.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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And what do these "accidental" models suggest the temp will do next?

I notice no prediction was given, that's useful if they wish to hide from verification.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Since it apparently has to be said:

Making models accurately predict what has already happened is not in and of itself science. It's mathematics. Any sufficiently complicated model can be made to grossly replicate (within a few years and a few degrees) observed climate.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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And what do these "accidental" models suggest the temp will do next?

I notice no prediction was given, that's useful if they wish to hide from verification.

As they said in the article long-term climate change is driven by orbital variations solar radiance output, greenhouse gases, and other things like that. El Niño and the Southern oscillation cannot change the long-term climate change impact. So there is no change from this analysis other than in the intermediate timeframe.

Since it apparently has to be said:

Making models accurately predict what has already happened is not in and of itself science. It's mathematics. Any sufficiently complicated model can be made to grossly replicate (within a few years and a few degrees) observed climate.

Except that's not what they did. The hypothesis was ENSO is very important to intermediate time frame predictions. The result was not that they match the 1880 to 2005 data. It was that they correctly predicted the so-called pause from 2005 to 2012 showing that El Niño is a major player in intermediate timeframe climate change. Something Jaskalas and Michael Mann both wholeheartedly agree.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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As they said in the article long-term climate change is driven by orbital variations solar radiance output, greenhouse gases, and other things like that. El Niño and the Southern oscillation cannot change the long-term climate change impact. So there is no change from this analysis other than in the intermediate timeframe.

Except that's not what they did. The hypothesis was ENSO is very important to intermediate time frame predictions. The result was not that they match the 1880 to 2005 data. It was that they correctly predicted the so-called pause from 2005 to 2012 showing that El Niño is a major player in intermediate timeframe climate change. Something Jaskalas and Michael Mann both wholeheartedly agree.
Okay, basic definition: You can't predict something that has already happened. You can only report it. That was kind of my point.

From the story:
And, since climate models aren't expected to accurately forecast each El Niño, there would be no reason to expect that they would match the actual atmospheric record.
Does it not strike you as unscientific that climate models, being "settled science", cannot accurately predict La Nina/El Nino events, which everyone agrees are one of the strongest drivers of climate?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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El Nino is heavily influenced by the PDO, as demonstrated by its struggle to materialize since 2008. That's a 50-60 year Ocean Cycle of "intermediate" weather to overcome.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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As they said in the article long-term climate change is driven by orbital variations solar radiance output, greenhouse gases, and other things like that. El Niño and the Southern oscillation cannot change the long-term climate change impact. So there is no change from this analysis other than in the intermediate timeframe.



Except that's not what they did. The hypothesis was ENSO is very important to intermediate time frame predictions. The result was not that they match the 1880 to 2005 data. It was that they correctly predicted the so-called pause from 2005 to 2012 showing that El Niño is a major player in intermediate timeframe climate change. Something Jaskalas and Michael Mann both wholeheartedly agree.

Um..... when do the models predict that the global climate change will have negative impact on man? Not the imaginary hand-wringing bullshit that doesn't impact us in a tangible way but the real in your face catastrophe that involves millions if not billions of deaths?
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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Okay, basic definition: You can't predict something that has already happened. You can only report it. That was kind of my point.

From the story:

Does it not strike you as unscientific that climate models, being "settled science", cannot accurately predict La Nina/El Nino events, which everyone agrees are one of the strongest drivers of climate?

It is factually incorrect the you cannot predict something that has already happened. Whether the answer is already known has no bearing on the what the model predicts.

Long term, ENSO has no bearing on the final temperature. All models will converge because at its heart climate change is simply an energy balance problem driven by the sun on one side and the heat radiated by the Earth on the other.

If you don't believe conservation of energy is settled science I suggest you buy a perpetual motion machine.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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Um..... when do the models predict that the global climate change will have negative impact on man? Not the imaginary hand-wringing bullshit that doesn't impact us in a tangible way but the real in your face catastrophe that involves millions if not billions of deaths?

While we are adding an asteroids impact worth of energy to the Earth every couple of decades climate change isn't actually an asteroid. I can't say India gets wiped off the map on 11/14/2067 at 3:12 AM and you know that.


However here's some good places to start.
http://climate.nasa.gov/effects/

http://www.usda.gov/img/content/EffectsofClimateChangeonUSEcosystem.pdf

http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg2/mindex.shtml

But I'm glad you are coming around to looking at the impacts and what if anything should be done, instead of denying it's even happening or we are causing it. :thumbsup:
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Long term, ENSO has no bearing on the final temperature.

Defining long term is the problem. You want it to be short, 20-30 years and rush to solve the trend created by half an Ocean Cycle. The longer we wait, the more we diverge from the models. They're only programed to go up, not properly attributing the 80s and 90s to the Ocean.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
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Defining long term is the problem. You want it to be short, 20-30 years and rush to solve the trend created by half an Ocean Cycle. The longer we wait, the more we diverge from the models. They're only programed to go up, not properly attributing the 80s and 90s to the Ocean.

I'd love to see the models run for 5 million years, they'd probably go to over 9000C.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
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While we are adding an asteroids impact worth of energy to the Earth every couple of decades climate change isn't actually an asteroid. I can't say India gets wiped off the map on 11/14/2067 at 3:12 AM and you know that.


However here's some good places to start.
http://climate.nasa.gov/effects/

http://www.usda.gov/img/content/EffectsofClimateChangeonUSEcosystem.pdf

http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg2/mindex.shtml

But I'm glad you are coming around to looking at the impacts and what if anything should be done, instead of denying it's even happening or we are causing it. :thumbsup:

I don't careeee. The only models they know are accurate are the ones they hand picked using historical data, otherwise they are all over the place. Literally a monkey throwing darts at different temperature increases is about as accurate.

The models have precision, but not accuracy. So what use are they in predicting the future?

From the USDA link (first one I clicked on) look at figure 1.... I laughed.
 
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Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
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I believe that the earth is warming AND it's largely due to the changing composition of the atmosphere caused by industrialization. I don't give a shit and wouldn't spend a red cent to "fix" it, however. I would pay for more funding into climate research so I can figure out exactly which cheap land I need to buy now so my descendants can be sitting on some prime beach front real estate in 200 years.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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Pretty sure it's not excess CO2 that makes VW-sized spiders, dude.

not by any reasonably projected standards in the next whatever years of human destruction--but yes, it is that simple.

There is nothing biological in today's arthropods that won't prevent them from growing to bus sizes if they are subjected to the same, persistent, high oxygen climate of the carboniferous. it's a simple ass exoskeleton and a rudimentary respiratory system--all the same, and all of which is made inefficient only by the limits of today's climate.

fucking 9 foot long centipedes? is that what you want? we will all die!
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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I don't careeee. The only models they know are accurate are the ones they hand picked using historical data, otherwise they are all over the place. Literally a monkey throwing darts at different temperature increases is about as accurate.

The models have precision, but not accuracy. So what use are they in predicting the future?

From the USDA link (first one I clicked on) look at figure 1.... I laughed.

Cool that you got to share that. I'll let the guys at NASA and NOAA know.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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I believe that the earth is warming AND it's largely due to the changing composition of the atmosphere caused by industrialization. I don't give a shit and wouldn't spend a red cent to "fix" it, however. I would pay for more funding into climate research so I can figure out exactly which cheap land I need to buy now so my descendants can be sitting on some prime beach front real estate in 200 years.

Well the cool thing is you get to pay regardless what you believe!

You'll pay more for food, water, and insurance. Plus, if those liberal tree huggers at the pentagon are right you'll get to pay more for the military.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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Well the cool thing is you get to pay regardless what you believe!

You'll pay more for food, water, and insurance. Plus, if those liberal tree huggers at the pentagon are right you'll get to pay more for the military.

Yea... we will at some nebulous date in the future. Its just around the corner, we gotta a model that proves it! In the meantime try to ignore the century long uninterrupted yearly increases in crop yields, they have absolutely NOTHING to do with global warming.......


From your link.....
Below are some of the regional impacts of global change forecast by the IPCC:

  • North America: Decreasing snowpack in the western mountains; 5-20 percent increase in yields of rain-fed agriculture in some regions; increased frequency, intensity and duration of heat waves in cities that currently experience them.2
Egads, we must avoid that 5-20% INCREASE in yields at ALL costs. ROFLMFAO!!!! REEEEFUCKINGGGGGDICULOUS!!!
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Here's a simple test for these "accidental" models.

How long does this atmospheric temperature pause last?
 

dbozhinova

Junior Member
Jul 23, 2014
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What a crap blog, written by idiots who don't even understand the paper they are completely misconstruing. Talk about intellectual dishonesty. This is exactly why non-scientists should not try to attempt to interpret and then explain results of a paper to other non-scientific people.

What the authors of the paper were doing was trying to determine whether the concentration of an isotope of CO2 (14CO2) was being impacted by emissions from a nuclear power plant, and if it could be used as a surrogate marker of fossil fuel release (since fossil fuels don't yield 14CO2). They found in their work that in an area without significant influence from nuclear reactors (near Germany) was not significantly impacted by nuclear emissions, thus the primary source of CO2 there was fossil fuels.

They found in a 6 month period there was an change of 15 ppm of the isotope of CO2 (14CO2).

How the f--k that moronic blog gets the idea that a change in 15 ppm in 6 months suddenly represents ALL man-made CO2 produced in the past 200 years, I have no freaking clue. If anything, that result is frightening, that a single area in only 6 months can change the CO2 by 15 ppm...

I suggest you delete the links to that dishonest blog, they are exactly reason why people don't understand the science, people like them completely f--k it up.


I am the lead author of the cited article, which is "reviewed" in that blog. This review and the misinterpretation of the results came to my knowledge approximately 24 hours ago by a stranger who just contacted the email listed in the article details. Since then I wrote a reply to the blog authors, who took the review and comments down really fast and wrote me an email with apology and further questions. However for the week in which the review has been up it is linked, cited, copy/pasted and discussed on so many websites/blogs/forums that it is probably impossible to visit and correct all. Yet, I decided to try and I have been roaming the internet for the past maybe 5 hours.

This post is the first place where I have seen someone that has actually made the efford to read the article and understand what we did and the limitations we have in our study. Thank you!
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
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I am the lead author of the cited article, which is "reviewed" in that blog. This review and the misinterpretation of the results came to my knowledge approximately 24 hours ago by a stranger who just contacted the email listed in the article details. Since then I wrote a reply to the blog authors, who took the review and comments down really fast and wrote me an email with apology and further questions. However for the week in which the review has been up it is linked, cited, copy/pasted and discussed on so many websites/blogs/forums that it is probably impossible to visit and correct all. Yet, I decided to try and I have been roaming the internet for the past maybe 5 hours.

This post is the first place where I have seen someone that has actually made the efford to read the article and understand what we did and the limitations we have in our study. Thank you!

Thank you, it's always good to see the author fighting back against the misinformation that's spread about what their work means.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,904
31,433
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I am the lead author of the cited article, which is "reviewed" in that blog. This review and the misinterpretation of the results came to my knowledge approximately 24 hours ago by a stranger who just contacted the email listed in the article details. Since then I wrote a reply to the blog authors, who took the review and comments down really fast and wrote me an email with apology and further questions. However for the week in which the review has been up it is linked, cited, copy/pasted and discussed on so many websites/blogs/forums that it is probably impossible to visit and correct all. Yet, I decided to try and I have been roaming the internet for the past maybe 5 hours.

This post is the first place where I have seen someone that has actually made the efford to read the article and understand what we did and the limitations we have in our study. Thank you!

:thumbsup: