Civil War in Lebanon

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From RichardE-

Arabs have been funding war on Israel since its creation, this is not a recent thing. Its nice and easy to buy heaven with someone says give me a check for x amount of dollars for a holy cause, the people on Israels borders have no problem with funding. The wars been glamorized to the Arabs the same was Hollywood glamorizes war to the west.

And the Israelis have been funded by western govts and so-called charities, as well... not to mention glamorized in film and song... "Exodus" comes to mind.

And I'll have to disagree with your assertions regarding the basis of the civil war. In may respects, the presence of the Palestinians, people who can't go home, in Lebanese refugee camps for decades played a very large part, as did US and Israeli meddling wrt the Christian Phalangists.

You're right in the sense that the Lebanese have so much foreign intervention and intrigue going on in their country that it's near impossible for them to reach accord. So long as there are fools willing to take the money and listen to the promises, they'll have problems.

None of which excuses Israeli actions in the slightest. their recent attack on Lebanon wasn't aimed at Hezbollah, at all, but at Lebanon in general, simply because the Lebanese govt can't control the Hezbollah- group punishment on the scale of a whole nation. It certainly didn't increase the Lebanese govt's ability to do what the Israelis say they want, that's for sure. So the Israelis, and the US, must want something else entirely...

We will have to agree to disagree on these points regarding the war, but as I said, that clusterfuck is impossible to pin down one cause of what really happened. The result is alot of people who shouldn't have been involved did for agendas that should never have gone through and that was the result. All the major Middle East players were involved in that one though and honestly its impossible to determine exactly what was the biggest factor.

What else can Israel/US do? If they go after Hezbollah we get hundreds of photoshopped Reuters pictures and accusations we are targeting civilians, Lebannon Government won't do anything because they can't. So Is Israel again just suppose to sit there and take her punches because she "doesn't" belong there? How many decades of punches would she need to take to earn a spot among the arab countries?

 

[Lemon law]

The fundamental RichardE delusion is here---How many decades of punches would she need to take to earn a spot among the arab countries?

What drives a good part of this conflict is Israeli unfairness. Not only have they stolen Palestinian land, they have exiled
them to concentration camps, and then to add insult to injury, there is a huge land grab in the 1967 war.

And when that is the metric driving the conflict, no amount of punches earns Israel squat, the metric becomes you keep hitting and hitting and hitting until you either win or reach some compromise.

To be fair to Israel, they have their own set of wrongs done upon them, but when they are retaliating against Stateless
terrorists, whom Israel can fairly hit becomes a more complex problem. In terms of the 2006 Lebanese incursion, Israel had some right to retaliate. But since the missiles were coming only from a narrow band in extreme South Lebanon, going past that was overkill.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The fundamental RichardE delusion is here---How many decades of punches would she need to take to earn a spot among the arab countries?

What drives a good part of this conflict is Israeli unfairness. Not only have they stolen Palestinian land, they have exiled
them to concentration camps, and then to add insult to injury, there is a huge land grab in the 1967 war.

And when that is the metric driving the conflict, no amount of punches earns Israel squat, the metric becomes you keep hitting and hitting and hitting until you either win or reach some compromise.

To be fair to Israel, they have their own set of wrongs done upon them, but when they are retaliating against Stateless
terrorists, whom Israel can fairly hit becomes a more complex problem. In terms of the 2006 Lebanese incursion, Israel had some right to retaliate. But since the missiles were coming only from a narrow band in extreme South Lebanon, going past that was overkill.

You mean the 1967 war where they were attacked by every surrounding Arab country at once in an at of extermination? Yeah, I can see how they were wrong in getting a buffer zone. Israel will return land once peace agreements are reached and her right to exist is established, it has proven this already. (Returning land to Egypt after peace agreements were reached).
Sorry, but the issue is the fact that the rest of the Arab countries have been too busy using Israel as the big scapegoat and telling there people that all there problems are the results of Israel as they squander aid and oil money and ignore the fundamental issues at the heart of there countries problems. It is not Israels job to fix the countries her neighbors have become and have always been.

 

[Lemon law]

The RichardE answer is chock full of nuts with---You mean the 1967 war where they were attacked by every surrounding Arab country at once in an at of extermination? Yeah, I can see how they were wrong in getting a buffer zone. Israel will return land once peace agreements are reached and her right to exist is established, it has proven this already. (Returning land to Egypt after peace agreements were reached).
Sorry, but the issue is the fact that the rest of the Arab countries have been too busy using Israel as the big scapegoat and telling there people that all there problems are the results of Israel as they squander aid and oil money and ignore the fundamental issues at the heart of there countries problems. It is not Israels job to fix the countries her neighbors have become and have always been.

First, during the 1967, Israel attacked first. Granted the Arabs may have been preparing to attack, but Israel lost the moral high ground when it attacked first. But even then, under UN charter exactly 100% of the land Israel gained in the 1967 war MUST BE GIVEN BACK. Israel can claim none of it.

Giving back what amounts to the totally worthless Sinai desert is hardly a concession.

I will agree that Israel cannot fix other surrounding Arab nations who do use the plight of Palestinians to distract their own people from how backward their governments are, but Israel is desperately in need of a fix for themselves. They let
a small minority of some 10,000 in settlers parties to drive their agenda, extremists are firmly in charge, Israel will make no meaningful concessions to allow a reasonable compromise, and they keep ramping up the Arab hatreds as they have a totally segregated religious state in which only jews have rights.

In the other metric that drives the conflict, no number of punches thrown by Israel earns Israel anything either. That has been the one enduring lesson of the 60 year history of Israel. In 1948, Israel had two basic choices. They could accept the UN mandate and fairly grant equal rights to the indigenous mixed Jewish and Palestinian population of the former British mandate, or they could decide that only Jews had rights. Sadly they choose the latter and they will know no peace because of it. They have lasted 60 years thus far because of a much stronger military, but better terrorist technology is starting to tip that balance. And now Israel faces a new dilemma.

I seldom agree with palehorse74, but I can agree with this point he made---Yes, because Mahmoud Abbas is such an "extremist"... The man is one of the most moderate leaders to EVER lead the Palestinian people...

Seriously, where do you get this stuff!?

Abbas is nearly the last of the Palestinian moderates and GWB&Rice are brokering a ongoing mideast conference in Annapolis now. It has not collapsed already only because Abbas has been willing to table the issue of continued Israeli settlement on disputed land. And sadly, I can only predict that if nothing meaningful comes from this conference, Abbas
and Fatah will go the way of the dodo as the price of recognizing Israel. Abbas may be a moderate but Moderates get nothing done when Israeli extremists drive the agenda. As it is, Israel will make no meaningful concessions, Abbas now speaks for less than 50% of the Palestinian people, and Abbas inking any deal that is not fair will result in no Arab of Palestinian acceptance.

In terms of the future, I can only see the rockets being pegged at Israel now getting longer ranges and better guidance systems. And instead of being the minor annoyances they are now, they may start killing significant numbers of innocent
Israelis. And sooner or later terrorists will start using chemical and biological weapons instead of explosives in the warheads of these rockets.

That in my mind is where this is heading. Gone are the days when Israel can hide behind military hegemony and refuse to negotiate in good faith and fairness.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The RichardE answer is chock full of nuts with---You mean the 1967 war where they were attacked by every surrounding Arab country at once in an at of extermination? Yeah, I can see how they were wrong in getting a buffer zone. Israel will return land once peace agreements are reached and her right to exist is established, it has proven this already. (Returning land to Egypt after peace agreements were reached).
Sorry, but the issue is the fact that the rest of the Arab countries have been too busy using Israel as the big scapegoat and telling there people that all there problems are the results of Israel as they squander aid and oil money and ignore the fundamental issues at the heart of there countries problems. It is not Israels job to fix the countries her neighbors have become and have always been.

First, during the 1967, Israel attacked first. Granted the Arabs may have been preparing to attack, but Israel lost the moral high ground when it attacked first. But even then, under UN charter exactly 100% of the land Israel gained in the 1967 war MUST BE GIVEN BACK. Israel can claim none of it.

Giving back what amounts to the totally worthless Sinai desert is hardly a concession.

I will agree that Israel cannot fix other surrounding Arab nations who do use the plight of Palestinians to distract their own people from how backward their governments are, but Israel is desperately in need of a fix for themselves. They let
a small minority of some 10,000 in settlers parties to drive their agenda, extremists are firmly in charge, Israel will make no meaningful concessions to allow a reasonable compromise, and they keep ramping up the Arab hatreds as they have a totally segregated religious state in which only jews have rights.

In the other metric that drives the conflict, no number of punches thrown by Israel earns Israel anything either. That has been the one enduring lesson of the 60 year history of Israel. In 1948, Israel had two basic choices. They could accept the UN mandate and fairly grant equal rights to the indigenous mixed Jewish and Palestinian population of the former British mandate, or they could decide that only Jews had rights. Sadly they choose the latter and they will know no peace because of it. They have lasted 60 years thus far because of a much stronger military, but better terrorist technology is starting to tip that balance. And now Israel faces a new dilemma.

I seldom agree with palehorse74, but I can agree with this point he made---Yes, because Mahmoud Abbas is such an "extremist"... The man is one of the most moderate leaders to EVER lead the Palestinian people...

Seriously, where do you get this stuff!?

Abbas is nearly the last of the Palestinian moderates and GWB&Rice are brokering a ongoing mideast conference in Annapolis now. It has not collapsed already only because Abbas has been willing to table the issue of continued Israeli settlement on disputed land. And sadly, I can only predict that if nothing meaningful comes from this conference, Abbas
and Fatah will go the way of the dodo as the price of recognizing Israel. Abbas may be a moderate but Moderates get nothing done when Israeli extremists drive the agenda. As it is, Israel will make no meaningful concessions, Abbas now speaks for less than 50% of the Palestinian people, and Abbas inking any deal that is not fair will result in no Arab of Palestinian acceptance.

In terms of the future, I can only see the rockets being pegged at Israel now getting longer ranges and better guidance systems. And instead of being the minor annoyances they are now, they may start killing significant numbers of innocent
Israelis. And sooner or later terrorists will start using chemical and biological weapons instead of explosives in the warheads of these rockets.

That in my mind is where this is heading. Gone are the days when Israel can hide behind military hegemony and refuse to negotiate in good faith and fairness.

I would love to see where you get this stuff "Only jews have rights" and other crap. As well, it will not reach that point, because eventually Israel will snap and deal with the Arab issue if it continues to have civilians die for no reason and a world public who sits there smugly going "see, we were right" and not caring about dead Israel civilians, but crying every time a faked Reuters picture is streamed across CNN.

 

[Lemon law]

Self educate yourself on the right to return and you will see where I get this stuff. Three million Palestinians herded into concentration camps is hard to ignore.

And please don't think I am choosing sides here. I have my own standards of fairness and think there are a tremendous numbers of wrongs on all sides. But right now, all I am doing is telling you where I think this conflict is going if nothing changes. No amount of RichardE pro Israel cheer leading will change a damn thing. As if all the damage Israel did to Lebanon is
merely faked Reiters pictures.

 

[Jhhnn]

Please, RichardE, it's obvious that the Israelis weren't targetting Hezbollah, but rather all of Lebanon in their recent attacks. Your reference to photoshopped pics is extremely disingenuous and diversionary, as well. The truth is that the Israelis need to respond appropriately to Hezbollah provocations rather than prove to the Lebanese what the Hezbollah says about them is the truth...

 

[Genx87]

Anytime you have people thinking Syrians bring peace and Hezbollah are humanitarians the conversation will go downhill in a hurry.

And anybody who believes the 67 war was soley an act of Israeli agression is a fool. Egypt closed off the Suez and massed 100,000 troops in the Sinai while kicking out the UN.

 

[Lemon law]

As GenX points out---Anytime you have people thinking Syrians bring peace and Hezbollah are humanitarians the conversation will go downhill in a hurry.

And the conversation will go downhill at equal speed on the premise that Israel is the only good guy here. Lots of wrongs on all sides and the 60 year history of Israel is merely a heaping of wrongs on wrong on wrongs. And somehow the premise is that an infinite number of wrongs on all sides will some how add up to a right.

But if we want to compare the Israeli occupation of Lebanon with the Syrian one, thats no contest, the Syrians did a far better job and the Israeli occupation led to the formation of Hezbollah.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
As GenX points out---Anytime you have people thinking Syrians bring peace and Hezbollah are humanitarians the conversation will go downhill in a hurry.

And the conversation will go downhill at equal speed on the premise that Israel is the only good guy here. Lots of wrongs on all sides and the 60 year history of Israel is merely a heaping of wrongs on wrong on wrongs. And somehow the premise is that an infinite number of wrongs on all sides will some how add up to a right.

But if we want to compare the Israeli occupation of Lebanon with the Syrian one, thats no contest, the Syrians did a far better job and the Israeli occupation led to the formation of Hezbollah.

I dont see anybody in this thread claiming Israel is saintly nor have done no wrong. Only that Syria was good for lebanon becuase they supposedly brought peace(lmao) and Hezbollah isnt as bad as claimed because they have a humanitarian aid side.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Please, RichardE, it's obvious that the Israelis weren't targetting Hezbollah, but rather all of Lebanon in their recent attacks. Your reference to photoshopped pics is extremely disingenuous and diversionary, as well. The truth is that the Israelis need to respond appropriately to Hezbollah provocations rather than prove to the Lebanese what the Hezbollah says about them is the truth...

Yes, because they did a full invasion and not just going a few miles past the boarder. Sorry, but the Lebannon government sat on there ass when Hez launched rockets and had daily "border scrimmages" than sat back crying "we couldn't do anything to stop them". So Israel did. Rocket attacks have decreased significantly by the way since than. Israel attacked Hez strongholds, places where Hez were known to be in significant power. Its pathetic that Hezbollah chose to put many of there centers in the middle of civilian population, but again, when have the Arabs around Israel cared about civilians? They are all going to heaven anyway right?


This topic has been beaten to death by the way, and we have gone back and forth on it numerous times. Israel did not practice country punishment, or punishment of all, They were as precise as could be when not unnecessarily risking IDF lives. Either way, the result worked and Israel is safer today because of it with rocket attacks down since than.

 

[Lemon law]

The RichardE contention is----Either way, the result worked and Israel is safer today because of it with rocket attacks down since than.

But will they stay down for very long? As Lebanon is now on the verge of another civil war. And when the rocket ranges get longer, Southern Lebanon will not be the only needed launch site.

As for the Israeli armor incursion going only 20 miles in two weeks, that shocked the hell out of Israel because irregular
Hezbollah militias caused the attack to bog down and there is no sugar coating that fact. Two years before a pair of Israeli tanks could have driven all the way through Lebanon unmolested to the Syrian Border.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The RichardE contention is----Either way, the result worked and Israel is safer today because of it with rocket attacks down since than.

But will they stay down for very long? As Lebanon is now on the verge of another civil war. And when the rocket ranges get longer, Southern Lebanon will not be the only needed launch site.

As for the Israeli armor incursion going only 20 miles in two weeks, that shocked the hell out of Israel because irregular
Hezbollah militias caused the attack to bog down and there is no sugar coating that fact. Two years before a pair of Israeli tanks could have driven all the way through Lebanon unmolested to the Syrian Border.

The war was only suppose to go into Southern Lebannon. That is the problem with all the "they were going to punish everyone!" It was never meant to be a full scale invasion (you can see this by the amount of troops dedicated to the attack).


Does it matter how long they stay down? The fact is the rockets are not flying, hezbollah is making a power grab. When they have power chances are they will not want more war (as they will risk there own power if they do). As despicable as Hez is and can be they are still looking for for the civilians of Lebanon for the most part (Though, hiding rockets ect among civilians defeats this purpose.). I'm torn because I would like nothing better than to see every Hez member killed for the crimes against Israel, but in the end them in power in Lebanon will be better for peace than the current Lebanon arrangement.

Will be interesting to see where this leads, hopefully once Hez gains control of the government Israel can have peace on 2 of her borders.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Lemon Law--- who says, i am a Muslim look at me, tee hee hee--- says

Meine nahme ist Lemon Lahwl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dispute your name and your religion.

 

[Lemon law]

Wrong again JOS, but your German accent is faked.

For the record, I am an American, and certainly not a Muslim. And evaluating the chessboard this has become, is best done without any religious bias at all.

What we have here is two or more sides that want it all, and neither will have anything until they can learn to share. As you Brits have learned in the 20'th century, having is not holding.

 

[manowar821]

Keep waging the jihad, pisabird.

 

[Aimster]

According to Human Rights Watch Israel targeted civilians... and attacked places where Hezbollah never was.

in fact the leader of HRW said most of Hezbollah's figthers were out in the field. Which makes sense because who the hell mounts a rocket launcher on top of a skyscraper or next to it. Nobody and there are zero pictures to show that such a thing was being done

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Aimster
According to Human Rights Watch Israel targeted civilians... and attacked places where Hezbollah never was.

in fact the leader of HRW said most of Hezbollah's figthers were out in the field. Which makes sense because who the hell mounts a rocket launcher on top of a skyscraper or next to it. Nobody and there are zero pictures to show that such a thing was being done

Well if HRW says it, it must be true!

 

[Kuzi]

Originally posted by: Aimster
According to Human Rights Watch Israel targeted civilians... and attacked places where Hezbollah never was.

in fact the leader of HRW said most of Hezbollah's figthers were out in the field. Which makes sense because who the hell mounts a rocket launcher on top of a skyscraper or next to it. Nobody and there are zero pictures to show that such a thing was being done

Agreed. Israel abuses and kills palestinian civilians on a daily basis, would they care about Lebanese civilians? Of course not. A simple google search will show you the Israeli atrocities and voilations against humanity. Too bad the majority of the nice people in U.S are brainwashed because CNN only shows them one side of the story.

Basically what happened is this, the U.S government/Israel ordered it?s two puppets in Lebanon (Fouad Siniora and Saad Hariri) to shut down Hezbollah's telecoms network. This network was always there and was very important for Hezbollah to defeat Israel in 2006.

Hezbollah did not like that obviously (Israel must be planning something), so they decided to take parts of the capital Beirut and forced the closure of pro-government media (as payback). The Lebanese Army stood there doing nothing because they know Hezbollah has a point, and they view them as heroes anyway. There were a few armed Hariri followers in Beirut that he paid to be there, but once they saw Hezbollah fighters they threw away their weapons and ran away. They had nowhere to go though, they were lost in Beirut, because Hariri brought them from north Lebanon. Hezbollah fighters being the coolheaded guys that they are, gathered Hariri?s fighters and sent them in buses back home.

Hariri said it was all a misunderstanding, and wants to have talks with Hezbollah. I?m sure he will not make this mistake again 🙂

This is just the start of the Shia tide.