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Civil War coming in Iran

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Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Aimster
A military option has never been in place for Iran. Anyone who has been thinking so all these years is wrong and will continue to be wrong.
U.S will never engage Iran militarily. All the U.S will do is what it has done for the last 30 years. Sanctions.

Well, it does really bother me that these people want freedom and they can't seem to get it. Part of me wants the US or other countries to do something. That said, it's really up to the people of Iran to sort out their own destiny. Historically, the populace has revolted (and won) when conditions got bad enough.


The young people in Iran are intelligent and many want to change Iran. The problem is that most of them hate the US. That's not my main reason for suggesting that the US should stay out of there; it just solidifies my argument.

They do not all hate the US and in fact the vast majority of young people in Iran would love nothing more then to embrace western culture despite living in a socially religious, conservative and repressive nation. What they in fact really dislike are the stupid assholes who paint all Iranians with a broad brush.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in your own statement? You just described the "vast majority" of them. :roll:

/facepalm

Hypocrisy? Believing that all young Iranians are all out to kill Americans is stupid and unfounded. Especially when its been cited over and over again in US news outlets (even in conservative news outlets) that there is a large and growing discontent amongst Iranian youth toward their oppressive authoritarian government as well as a desire to embrace a more liberal and modern western life style.
 
Revolution on the march?

The Huffington Post has posted some (supposed) demands from the protesters:

1. Dismissal of Khamenei for not being a fair leader
2. Dismissal of Ahmadinejad for his illegal acts
3. Temporary appointment of Ayatollah Montazeri as the Supreme Leader
4. Recognition of Mousavi as the President
5. Forming the Cabinet by Mousavi to prepare for revising the Constitution
6. unconditional and immediate release of all political prisoners
7. Dissolution of all organs of repression, public or secret


I don't think this is going to settle down like some (CNN...) are suggesting. Revolutionary Guards are also rumored to be joining the protesters. If the youth movement can keep this up, perhaps Iran can be a true democracy in the future.
 
Originally posted by: tvarad
How much of this is attributable to Obama's election as POTUS? My feeling is that it knocked the anti-Bush wind out of the sails of leaders like Ahmedinijad, Dear Leader, Chavez etc. and now they have to deal with their substantial internal problems.

I think people are under-estimating the effect of the U.S. electing an African-American President with Muslim ancestry is having on the rest of the world. It may not be immediately noticeable but leaders like Ahmedinijad will have a tough time convincing their people that big bad USA is out to get poor little Iran because of it.

It's greatly helping the US build relationships with the countries of the future. Obama realizes this and is slowly shifting our alliances from dying, decrepit European societies to the countries which will be relevant in the future. Relations with Europe (especially the UK) are declining with Obama's election, but relations elsewhere will take over.
 
After watching a video of the motorcycle cops I am surprised that the protesters don't have an answer for dealing with them.

It was the cops on bikes and with sticks that doomed the last uprising. Just when it looked like something was going to happen they sent out the goons and the 'revolution' crashed big time.

Let's ship them a few million marbles to throw on the ground in front of the bikes or something.

Also... keep an eye out for reports that the Iranian leadership is brining in troops from outside of the cities to deal with the protesters. When the Chinese leaders got tired of Tiananmen square they brought in military troops from other parts of the country and troops who were from a different ethnic group too.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
After watching a video of the motorcycle cops I am surprised that the protesters don't have an answer for dealing with them.

It was the cops on bikes and with sticks that doomed the last uprising. Just when it looked like something was going to happen they sent out the goons and the 'revolution' crashed big time.

Let's ship them a few million marbles to throw on the ground in front of the bikes or something.

Also... keep an eye out for reports that the Iranian leadership is brining in troops from outside of the cities to deal with the protesters. When the Chinese leaders got tired of Tiananmen square they brought in military troops from other parts of the country and troops who were from a different ethnic group too.

I know you're a neocon so violence is good in your world but they are trying to do this as peacefully as possible. Telling them to fight the motorcycle cops would just bring more pain down on them. It's amazing how the "conservative" mind works.
 
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
After watching a video of the motorcycle cops I am surprised that the protesters don't have an answer for dealing with them.

It was the cops on bikes and with sticks that doomed the last uprising. Just when it looked like something was going to happen they sent out the goons and the 'revolution' crashed big time.

Let's ship them a few million marbles to throw on the ground in front of the bikes or something.

Also... keep an eye out for reports that the Iranian leadership is brining in troops from outside of the cities to deal with the protesters. When the Chinese leaders got tired of Tiananmen square they brought in military troops from other parts of the country and troops who were from a different ethnic group too.

I know you're a neocon so violence is good in your world but they are trying to do this as peacefully as possible. Telling them to fight the motorcycle cops would just bring more pain down on them. It's amazing how the "conservative" mind works.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. But this will only work for so long. When Iranian police, or the Basiji, or whoever, start opening fire on people, the Iranian people will have to defend themselves or just decide to go home. This has already begun in some situations.


This is raw video from a Basiji HQ I assume...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh9bP9HUa_s
 
Originally posted by: bamacre
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. But this will only work for so long. When Iranian police, or the Basiji, or whoever, start opening fire on people, the Iranian people will have to defend themselves or just decide to go home. This has already begun in some situations.

But the point is they can do this without violence. Look at the images of protesters protecting police men, washing their wounds and helping them. I see people helping each other when its the power, the ugly men, the Cheneys of Iran that are putting them both in this situation. Peace can be more powerful then anything. I will never forget that image of the Tiananmen square protester stopping the tanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-nXT8lSnPQ

Look at that man. Will your life have as much impact?
 
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: bamacre
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. But this will only work for so long. When Iranian police, or the Basiji, or whoever, start opening fire on people, the Iranian people will have to defend themselves or just decide to go home. This has already begun in some situations.

But the point is they can do this without violence. Look at the images of protesters protecting police men, washing their wounds and helping them. I see people helping each other when its the power, the ugly men, the Cheneys of Iran that are putting them both in this situation. Peace can be more powerful then anything. I will never forget that image of the Tiananmen square protester stopping the tanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-nXT8lSnPQ

Look at that man. Will your life has as much impact?

Like I said, I agree with you. But this only works if the other side will have sympathy for those being killed. I don't want to see this becoming more violent than it has to. Honestly, I think it's been amazingly peaceful so far.
 
From the Fark Thread a recount of what is happening by Tatsuma:

important: The Iranian government is looking for dissident twitterers, so if you have an account, change your location and timezone to tehran!

This seems to be helping quite a few people, so I'll go ahead and repost it in every threads with some adjustments. Sorry, this has reached the level of TL;DR but I really am trying to cram the most relevant information and speculation only. Everything is updated as events unfold, especially the timeline and what will happen in the future.

Suppression of Dissent - The Players

Currently, there are either two or three groups who are suppressing the students on the ground that you'll read about throughout this thread:

1. The Basij
2. Ansar Hizbullah (which I will refer to as Ansar)
3. Lebanese Hizbullah (Unconfirmed but highly probable. Der Spiegel, based on a Voice of America report, says that 5,000 Hizbullah fighters are currently in Iran masquerading as riot police, confirming the independent reports. Many different independent reports and video point that way. Even in the last hours other independent twitter feeds have declared witnessing thugs beating on people while shouting in Arabic; I will refer to them as Hizbullah)

- The Basij are your regular paramilitary organization. They are the armed hand of the clerics. The Basij are a legal group, officially a student union, and are legally under direct orders of the Revolutionary Guard. Their main raison d'être is to quell dissent. They are the ones who go and crack skulls, force people to participate in pro-regime demonstrations, and generally try to stop any demonstrations from even starting. They are located throughout the country, in every mosque, every university, every social club you can think of. They function in a way very similar to the brownshirts.

They were the ones who first started the crackdown after the election, but it wasn't enough. While they are violent and repressive, they are still Persian and attacking fellow citizens. A beating is one thing, mass killings another.

- Another group was working with them, whose members are even more extreme, is Ansar. There is a lot of cross-membership between the Basij and Ansar, though not all are members of the other group and vice-versa. The vast majority of Ansar are Persians (either Basij or ex-military), though a lot of Arab recruits come from Lebanon and train with them under supervision of the Revolutionary Guard. They are not functioning under a legal umbrella, they are considered a vigilante group, but they pledge loyalty directly to the Supreme Leader and most people believe that they are under his control. They are currently helping the Basij to control the riots, but due to the fact that they are Persians and in lower numbers than the Basij, they are not that active.

- The Lebanese Hizbullah is a direct offshoot (and under direct control) of the Iranian Hizbullah (itself under direct control of the Supreme Leader) and cooperates closely with Ansar though Ansar occupies itself only with Iran's domestic policies, while Hizbullah occupies itself only with Iran's foreign policy unless there is a crisis like right now. However, Hizbullah has been called to stop violent riots in Iran in the past.

(the following paragraph includes some speculation based on reports from ground zero) Hizbullah flew in a lot of their members in Iran, most likely a good deal even before the elections in case there were trouble. They are the ones who speak Arabs and are unleashing the biggest level of violence on the Persians so far. Another wave arrived recently and there is chatter that yet another wave of Hizbullah reinforcements are coming in from Lebanon as we speak. According to Iranians on the ground, they are the ones riding motorcycles, beating men women and children indiscriminately and firing live ammunitions at students.

What will happen

Unless the army decides to intervene in the favor of the Council and to stop the early beginnings of the new Revolution, Ansar & Hizbullah members will be the ones doing the brunt of the killing and repression with Basij as a support while also protecting government buildings and try to do crowd control. The police seems to have for the most part disbanded in centers like Tehran according to all reports, including international media. If the police decides to come back, they will focus less on protection and crowd control, so the Basij will start to crack more skulls).

Currently, this is what is happening.


Timeline
note: I built this through both articles and twitter feeds, so I do not claim that this is a 100% factually correct representation of reality, but this is the general narrative.

- When the first spontaneous riots erupted, the first wave the Iranian Riot Police was called in, and short after the Basij also took the scene. The RP concentrated mostly around public buildings and streets while the Basij took position around student groups, especiallly universities.

- As things got more out of hand, more and more Basij troops were called in, as the police started dispersing. The riot police are less inclined (or, rather I should say the Basij are more inclined) to use violence so they retreated and leaving the place to the Basij.

- With the second wave of Basij also came Ansar Hizbullah members. This is the point where firearms started being used. There are reports of a few murders but it was mostly fired in the air or on walls in order to scare away protesters in University dorms.

- It's around the time of the second wave that the first reports and videos of an important number of non-Persian thugs shouting in Arabic and violently beating people with chains, clubs and electric batons (similar to cattle prods). The end of the second wave came right before the beginning of the current manifestation. Things were getting quieter with only sporadic reports of dissenters being assaulted. Important to note: at this time. the Supreme Leader has authorized these militias to use live ammunition against the crowd if things get out of hand (source: BBC)

- This brings us to the third wave, which just began around 12:30PM for those of us on the East Coast. According to all reports, plainclothes militia have opened fire on civilians protesting peacefully. Chaos erupted in the streets, with reports of fighting all over Tehran and spreading over Iran. Pictures of people shot, some to death, surfaced and were published in the mainstream media. Things very are ugly and this is spreading in other cities as well. Violent and murderous repression has started. At least a twenty people have been killed so far. Things will spiral down fast, and very soon.

There is a major crackdown on students, especially those with connections to the outside world going on right now. Some people report that the students are fighting back in some areas. Telephones are being bugged and everyone twittering and sending videos outside of Iran are being rounded up. ISPs were shut down, government hackers are threatening people who twitter, and some of them have vanished in the last 24 hours.

Later, the people started to fight back. First, they took over and burned down a Basij base, killing its commander. Later, a Basij shot a young man in the face in front of their HQ, at which point a policeman went to confront them. The Basij beat the policeman, at which point students stormed the compound, throwing molotov cocktails, burning it to the ground. This is very big.

Tomorrow (or today as of the 16th of June)

Supporters of Moussavi have a manifestation planned for 5pm, Tehran time. Roughly the same number or more is expected to attend. Plenty of twitter chat about dressing in black.

The pro-Ahmadinejad crowd however are planning a counter-demonstration at the very same place the supporters are supposed to gather at 3pm. Most agree that basically they are simply going to gather for a confrontation. Basij from all over the country are moving to Tehran and supporters are being bused from all over the country.

A major showdown is expected to unfold

The Supreme Leader has also called for a 10-day inquiry into the claims of fraud, but it has been widely dismissed as cosmetic. The Revolution lives on.

Demands from the protesters

1. Dismissal of Khamenei for not being a fair leader
2. Dismissal of Ahmadinejad for his illegal acts
3. Temporary appointment of Ayatollah Montazeri as the Supreme Leader
4. Recognition of Mousavi as the President
5. Forming the Cabinet by Mousavi to prepare for revising the Constitution
6. unconditional and immediate release of all political prisoners
7. Dissolution of all organs of repression, public or secret.

Who is Grand Ayatollah Montazeri?

Ayatollah Montazeri is a pro-Democracy, pro-Human Rights Ayatollah who was at one point on the short list of possible successors of Khomeini, but became marginalized as he adopted what was seen as a too pro-Western, pro-Democracy stance.

Since the beginning of the Revolution, he has been one of the fiercest critics of the Regime, and one of the biggest proponents of women and civil rights for ALL Iranians, including much-maligned minorities like the Baha'is. In fact he goes further than the protections afforded to them under Sharia.

He is also a big critic of Ahmadinejad and has been seen for years as the best hope for Iran if he ever was to come to power, something that was unthinkable a mere week ago.

Links

For further information on the Basij, Global Security has a good article about the history of the Basij.

CNN has a good article where eyewitnesses describe the type of violence usually unleashed by the Basij.

Here is another good article from GS again giving more background information on the ruthless Ansar thugs.

BBC profile of Grand Ayatollah Montazeri
 
Really interesting, thanks for posting this. I honestly thought any rebellion would be crushed pretty quickly, but it seems like this movement is really building up some steam.
 
I am surprised this is still going so strong. Gov has offered to do some recounts but opposition wants new elections. That would be a tacit admission of guilt, though by the gov, so it doesn't seem likely. I wish the protesters the best of luck, though. If the gov was wholly fraudulent in the elections it doesn't deserve to exist.
 
Originally posted by: KMFJD
From the Fark Thread a recount of what is happening by Tatsuma:

important: The Iranian government is looking for dissident twitterers, so if you have an account, change your location and timezone to tehran!

This seems to be helping quite a few people, so I'll go ahead and repost it in every threads with some adjustments. Sorry, this has reached the level of TL;DR but I really am trying to cram the most relevant information and speculation only. Everything is updated as events unfold, especially the timeline and what will happen in the future.

Suppression of Dissent - The Players

Currently, there are either two or three groups who are suppressing the students on the ground that you'll read about throughout this thread:

1. The Basij
2. Ansar Hizbullah (which I will refer to as Ansar)
3. Lebanese Hizbullah (Unconfirmed but highly probable. Der Spiegel, based on a Voice of America report, says that 5,000 Hizbullah fighters are currently in Iran masquerading as riot police, confirming the independent reports. Many different independent reports and video point that way. Even in the last hours other independent twitter feeds have declared witnessing thugs beating on people while shouting in Arabic; I will refer to them as Hizbullah)

- The Basij are your regular paramilitary organization. They are the armed hand of the clerics. The Basij are a legal group, officially a student union, and are legally under direct orders of the Revolutionary Guard. Their main raison d'être is to quell dissent. They are the ones who go and crack skulls, force people to participate in pro-regime demonstrations, and generally try to stop any demonstrations from even starting. They are located throughout the country, in every mosque, every university, every social club you can think of. They function in a way very similar to the brownshirts.

They were the ones who first started the crackdown after the election, but it wasn't enough. While they are violent and repressive, they are still Persian and attacking fellow citizens. A beating is one thing, mass killings another.

- Another group was working with them, whose members are even more extreme, is Ansar. There is a lot of cross-membership between the Basij and Ansar, though not all are members of the other group and vice-versa. The vast majority of Ansar are Persians (either Basij or ex-military), though a lot of Arab recruits come from Lebanon and train with them under supervision of the Revolutionary Guard. They are not functioning under a legal umbrella, they are considered a vigilante group, but they pledge loyalty directly to the Supreme Leader and most people believe that they are under his control. They are currently helping the Basij to control the riots, but due to the fact that they are Persians and in lower numbers than the Basij, they are not that active.

- The Lebanese Hizbullah is a direct offshoot (and under direct control) of the Iranian Hizbullah (itself under direct control of the Supreme Leader) and cooperates closely with Ansar though Ansar occupies itself only with Iran's domestic policies, while Hizbullah occupies itself only with Iran's foreign policy unless there is a crisis like right now. However, Hizbullah has been called to stop violent riots in Iran in the past.

(the following paragraph includes some speculation based on reports from ground zero) Hizbullah flew in a lot of their members in Iran, most likely a good deal even before the elections in case there were trouble. They are the ones who speak Arabs and are unleashing the biggest level of violence on the Persians so far. Another wave arrived recently and there is chatter that yet another wave of Hizbullah reinforcements are coming in from Lebanon as we speak. According to Iranians on the ground, they are the ones riding motorcycles, beating men women and children indiscriminately and firing live ammunitions at students.

What will happen

Unless the army decides to intervene in the favor of the Council and to stop the early beginnings of the new Revolution, Ansar & Hizbullah members will be the ones doing the brunt of the killing and repression with Basij as a support while also protecting government buildings and try to do crowd control. The police seems to have for the most part disbanded in centers like Tehran according to all reports, including international media. If the police decides to come back, they will focus less on protection and crowd control, so the Basij will start to crack more skulls).

Currently, this is what is happening.


Timeline
note: I built this through both articles and twitter feeds, so I do not claim that this is a 100% factually correct representation of reality, but this is the general narrative.

- When the first spontaneous riots erupted, the first wave the Iranian Riot Police was called in, and short after the Basij also took the scene. The RP concentrated mostly around public buildings and streets while the Basij took position around student groups, especiallly universities.

- As things got more out of hand, more and more Basij troops were called in, as the police started dispersing. The riot police are less inclined (or, rather I should say the Basij are more inclined) to use violence so they retreated and leaving the place to the Basij.

- With the second wave of Basij also came Ansar Hizbullah members. This is the point where firearms started being used. There are reports of a few murders but it was mostly fired in the air or on walls in order to scare away protesters in University dorms.

- It's around the time of the second wave that the first reports and videos of an important number of non-Persian thugs shouting in Arabic and violently beating people with chains, clubs and electric batons (similar to cattle prods). The end of the second wave came right before the beginning of the current manifestation. Things were getting quieter with only sporadic reports of dissenters being assaulted. Important to note: at this time. the Supreme Leader has authorized these militias to use live ammunition against the crowd if things get out of hand (source: BBC)

- This brings us to the third wave, which just began around 12:30PM for those of us on the East Coast. According to all reports, plainclothes militia have opened fire on civilians protesting peacefully. Chaos erupted in the streets, with reports of fighting all over Tehran and spreading over Iran. Pictures of people shot, some to death, surfaced and were published in the mainstream media. Things very are ugly and this is spreading in other cities as well. Violent and murderous repression has started. At least a twenty people have been killed so far. Things will spiral down fast, and very soon.

There is a major crackdown on students, especially those with connections to the outside world going on right now. Some people report that the students are fighting back in some areas. Telephones are being bugged and everyone twittering and sending videos outside of Iran are being rounded up. ISPs were shut down, government hackers are threatening people who twitter, and some of them have vanished in the last 24 hours.

Later, the people started to fight back. First, they took over and burned down a Basij base, killing its commander. Later, a Basij shot a young man in the face in front of their HQ, at which point a policeman went to confront them. The Basij beat the policeman, at which point students stormed the compound, throwing molotov cocktails, burning it to the ground. This is very big.

Tomorrow (or today as of the 16th of June)

Supporters of Moussavi have a manifestation planned for 5pm, Tehran time. Roughly the same number or more is expected to attend. Plenty of twitter chat about dressing in black.

The pro-Ahmadinejad crowd however are planning a counter-demonstration at the very same place the supporters are supposed to gather at 3pm. Most agree that basically they are simply going to gather for a confrontation. Basij from all over the country are moving to Tehran and supporters are being bused from all over the country.

A major showdown is expected to unfold

The Supreme Leader has also called for a 10-day inquiry into the claims of fraud, but it has been widely dismissed as cosmetic. The Revolution lives on.

Demands from the protesters

1. Dismissal of Khamenei for not being a fair leader
2. Dismissal of Ahmadinejad for his illegal acts
3. Temporary appointment of Ayatollah Montazeri as the Supreme Leader
4. Recognition of Mousavi as the President
5. Forming the Cabinet by Mousavi to prepare for revising the Constitution
6. unconditional and immediate release of all political prisoners
7. Dissolution of all organs of repression, public or secret.

Who is Grand Ayatollah Montazeri?

Ayatollah Montazeri is a pro-Democracy, pro-Human Rights Ayatollah who was at one point on the short list of possible successors of Khomeini, but became marginalized as he adopted what was seen as a too pro-Western, pro-Democracy stance.

Since the beginning of the Revolution, he has been one of the fiercest critics of the Regime, and one of the biggest proponents of women and civil rights for ALL Iranians, including much-maligned minorities like the Baha'is. In fact he goes further than the protections afforded to them under Sharia.

He is also a big critic of Ahmadinejad and has been seen for years as the best hope for Iran if he ever was to come to power, something that was unthinkable a mere week ago.

Links

For further information on the Basij, Global Security has a good article about the history of the Basij.

CNN has a good article where eyewitnesses describe the type of violence usually unleashed by the Basij.

Here is another good article from GS again giving more background information on the ruthless Ansar thugs.

BBC profile of Grand Ayatollah Montazeri

The ironic thing is that Ahmadinejad and the people behind the Basij are the teenagers and young people 30 years ago when our embassy was taken over and the country went to shit and they had the last revolution.
 
Bush's main negotiator with Iran, Nick Burns, praising Obama's handling of the Iran situation. John McCain is a fucking idiot, it's counter productive for Obama to put himself in the middle of the Iranian elections. It gives ammo for Ahmadinejad.

John McCain and other Republicans and conservatives have been hammering away at Obama?s handling of the Iran crisis, saying that it has been insufficiently aggressive. This morning, McCain demanded that Obama ?condemn the sham, corrupt election,? in order to ?make sure that the world knows that America leads.?

But guess who is praising Obama?s approach and saying Obama?s right to refrain from McCainian chest-thumping: George W. Bush?s top negotiator with Iran, Ambassador Nicholas Burns.

In an interview today with NPR, Burns praised Obama?s handling of the crisis, and said that a more aggressive response would actually play into the hands of President Ahmadinejad.

?President Ahmadinejad would like nothing better than to see a very aggressive series of statements by the United States that would try to put the U.S. in the center of this,? Burns said. ?And I think President Obama is avoiding that quite rightly.?

?This is not a dispute for the U.S. to be the center of,? Burns said at another point. ?It?s up to Iranians to decide who Iran?s future leaders will be. He said he respects Iran?s sovereignty. I think it was important to do that.?

Burns said that Obama was right to refrain from throwing the U.S.?s weight around while giving props to reformers. He praised Obama for being ?low-key? while saying he?s concerned about the plight of reformers and inspired by them, which Burns called a ?balancing act.? Audio here.

 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I am surprised this is still going so strong. Gov has offered to do some recounts but opposition wants new elections. That would be a tacit admission of guilt, though by the gov, so it doesn't seem likely. I wish the protesters the best of luck, though. If the gov was wholly fraudulent in the elections it doesn't deserve to exist.

Perhaps the Iranian leadership understands one simple truth, soon these people will be hungry and they'll have to go back to work.
 
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I am surprised this is still going so strong. Gov has offered to do some recounts but opposition wants new elections. That would be a tacit admission of guilt, though by the gov, so it doesn't seem likely. I wish the protesters the best of luck, though. If the gov was wholly fraudulent in the elections it doesn't deserve to exist.

Perhaps the Iranian leadership understands one simple truth, soon these people will be hungry and they'll have to go back to work.

What work? It's a bunch of young people on the street throwing a big party.
 
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I am surprised this is still going so strong. Gov has offered to do some recounts but opposition wants new elections. That would be a tacit admission of guilt, though by the gov, so it doesn't seem likely. I wish the protesters the best of luck, though. If the gov was wholly fraudulent in the elections it doesn't deserve to exist.

Perhaps the Iranian leadership understands one simple truth, soon these people will be hungry and they'll have to go back to work.

What work? It's a bunch of young people on the street throwing a big party.

You bring the champagne and I'll bring the bullets.
 
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Delusional you are. There will be no civil war. Iran has voted. And voted to keep being the enemy of the free world.

That's the issue if you haven't been paying attention, the election results are very suspect of having been rigged.
 
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I am surprised this is still going so strong. Gov has offered to do some recounts but opposition wants new elections. That would be a tacit admission of guilt, though by the gov, so it doesn't seem likely. I wish the protesters the best of luck, though. If the gov was wholly fraudulent in the elections it doesn't deserve to exist.

Perhaps the Iranian leadership understands one simple truth, soon these people will be hungry and they'll have to go back to work.

What work? It's a bunch of young people on the street throwing a big party.

It's not just the young people out in the streets, it's people of all ages coming together protesting.

from one headline today 'Grand Ayatollah Husayn Ali Montazeri tells the Iranian army and police that "I was just following orders" will not cut it with Allah.'
 
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Delusional you are. There will be no civil war. Iran has voted. And voted to keep being the enemy of the free world.

That's the issue if you haven't been paying attention, the election results are very suspect of having been rigged.
ummm the people with the 'real' power got to pick who could and couldn't run in this election therefore it was rigged before they even voted.

I think what we are seeing now has gone beyond that though. I think they might have been happy if their candidate had run and did some small reforms, but the clerics said no, so now they are going for the whole thing.
 
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
After watching a video of the motorcycle cops I am surprised that the protesters don't have an answer for dealing with them.

It was the cops on bikes and with sticks that doomed the last uprising. Just when it looked like something was going to happen they sent out the goons and the 'revolution' crashed big time.

Let's ship them a few million marbles to throw on the ground in front of the bikes or something.

Also... keep an eye out for reports that the Iranian leadership is brining in troops from outside of the cities to deal with the protesters. When the Chinese leaders got tired of Tiananmen square they brought in military troops from other parts of the country and troops who were from a different ethnic group too.
I know you're a neocon so violence is good in your world but they are trying to do this as peacefully as possible. Telling them to fight the motorcycle cops would just bring more pain down on them. It's amazing how the "conservative" mind works.
I don't think you understand how things work in a country like Iran.

This isn't a country that can be guilt tripped into doing the right thing. Like China they will kick out all the worlds media and then they will crack down and kill as many people as they need to until things are back in hand.

Read up on the 1999 uprising link

Also, watch one of the videos in this thread that show how effective the biker cops are at disrupting these protests. If the protesters had a way to counter acting the bikers then they would be able to continue their protests in a more productive manor.
 
BTW how many 'peaceful' revolutions have their been in the past 50 or so years??

Sure they have been people who have given up power peacefully, but most of those only did so under the threat of violence.

It is very unlikely that the clerics will just give up their power to the people.

This will either require a mess and bloody battle or some kind, or the military coming out and deciding that it is going to side with the students and young people and demand that the clerics give up their power.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
BTW how many 'peaceful' revolutions have their been in the past 50 or so years??

Sure they have been people who have given up power peacefully, but most of those only did so under the threat of violence.

It is very unlikely that the clerics will just give up their power to the people.

This will either require a mess and bloody battle or some kind, or the military coming out and deciding that it is going to side with the students and young people and demand that the clerics give up their power.
yeltsin/russia.

Not exactly a revolution, but pretty big changes.
 
Originally posted by: shiner
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: shiner
Originally posted by: yllus
Will not happen. The Western fantasy in which the young of Iran rise up and demand full unfettered access to democracy and satellite TV is just that - fantasy.

Don't forget the cupcakes and porn

Or Walmart, and the interesting customers that one finds when in possession of brined cucumbers (obscure reference)

I don't know why Sully doesn't think that the Iranians won't do what they did a generation ago. They are still just as proud and resistant to being told they have to accept a fraud.

I don't think that this is THE moment, but it may be the pebble that starts the avalanche.

We're at least 10 to 15 years away from a reasonable expectation that the people of Iran will rise up and overthrow the current system of government.
How do you know that? Things can change fast. The news I've been seeing suggests a pretty chaotic situation.

 
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