"I did not have sexual relations with that woman!" , and "It depends on your definaition of sexual relations". Remember these two quotes? If not, how about "I can't recall", or "I didn't inhale." Maybe, the analyst is a frustratd disgruntled employee with an axe to grind. President after President have been liars. I can't think off the top of my head, but i am certain that given ten more minutes, most posters could come up with hundreds, from varyious Presidents.
The fact that other presidents have lied isn't in question. In fact, I don't remember anyone ever making the claim that any president has never lied. The point of this thread is that, in the opinion of a CIA analyst, Bush is the worst.
exactly, here in Iceland one of three bank managers of a leading bank here was accused of using bank's money for personal expenses, that was soon proven true. The weird part is that he thought there was nothing wrong with it at all because bank managers in the past had been doing the same, and that was his whole excuse. It just doesnt work well, or even at all.
There is something seriously flawed with your comparison that I don't think you will ever recognize:
One President lied about getting BJ, and perhaps about hitting the doobidge after being forced into the spotlight by those evidently not part of his fan club.
The other president deliberatley exploited the emotionality of post 9/11 America, forced the nation into a war it didn't want based on false pretenses (aka lies like WMD's, the relaitonship of Iraq to Osama,) heralded in a radicall new era of preemptive warfare, enriched his patrons through no-bid contracts at the expense of the Iraqi people who would benefit from the opportunity to rebbuild their own country that bush destroyed through the exploitation of the American military ("bring em' on"), is responsible for the deaths of 50000 Iraqi's, almost 500 US soldiers, and hundreds of "coalition" troops, and in doing all of this he created the largest spending deficit since the Reagan era. T
here's no need to even go into his nightmarish polciy making, it's plainly evident that there is an ENORMOUS discrepency between the two comparisons. If we impeached one President for a marital misconduct then we have got to be out of our @#$%ing minds not impeach the current one. Unfortunately, it all boils down to one thing for the YABA's; "he's good people."
I hate to resurrect the topic, but maybe I've been misunderstood. I don't use the emoticons, and sarcasm is my way of life. I don't favor Democrats, Republicans, or any politician. They all rank up there with snake oil salesman in my book. The fact is, that ALL politicians lie. It doesn't surprise me at all. I expect them to do so for the good of our country if need be. I believe he (Busch) mislead the populace as to his real motives, which had nothing to do with Iraqi liberation. I beleive the war was not about good faith so much as economics and military strategy. To quote Machiavelli "You must realize this: that a prince, and especially a new prince, cannot observe all those things that give a man reputation for virtue, because in order to maintain his state, he is often forced to act in defiance of good faith." "- he should not deviate from what is good, if that is possible, but he should know how to do evil, if that is necessary." A lie from our leaders so long as it is for the good of our country is pure Machiavellian standard. Saddam was not a good little boy, and did not play well with others. To have someone like that in charge of the Middle East would not be good for our economy. Saddam wasn't a good puppet, and could not be trusted as an enemy, so he was removed. Plain and simple.
So many like to quote the CIA on this forum. They are the ultimate in lying for their country. They do it every day. If they didn't, what use would they be to the country?
Now, for whatever the reasons, the problem is in our laps and it must be fixed. Squabbling over why and how it happened does nothing to end it. Let's get them (the Iraqis) a stable government, get out of Dodge and go back to business as usual.
So many like to quote the CIA on this forum. They are the ultimate in lying for their country. They do it every day. If they didn't, what use would they be to the country?
Now, for whatever the reasons, the problem is in our laps and it must be fixed. Squabbling over why and how it happened does nothing to end it. Let's get them (the Iraqis) a stable government, get out of Dodge and go back to business as usual.
Is it your contention that the American public should just shrug their collective shoulders and say "Eh, who cares if our president lied to us. It was for the good of our country"? (BTW, who decides if it's for the good of the country?)Do you have a problem with people who have a problem with our leaders misleading the American people to garner support for the war? I was right all along, wasn't I? You are a member of the 'Good came of the war so no questions should be asked' crowd. Do you understand that if we, as a country, not only accept, but expect, lies from our leaders we deserve whatever we get shoveled at us (not only this war but everything else), and we don't have the right to b!tch about it.
Gaard, You may not have read the classic literature of Machiavelli, that all the Western world used to form it's foreign policy. To lie for your country is expected; To lie for yourself is inexcusable. That pretty much sums up Machiavelli's writings in Cliff's Notes fashion, as far as honesty goes.
To say that you were right, about a preconceived notion that I accept anything that comes my way, is a very black and white view of the world. You don't have to like the president. I don't. You don't have to respect him either. You have to realize that our leader is privy to more information than will ever be released, and I trust that a sound economic (war is the ultimate economic tool) decision was made in this case. If you don't trust in his motives to protect the U.S., and it's interests, even at the expense of others, then vote him out. That's what separates this nation from many out there.
I look at both sides of political decisions, and the politicians themselves. It's up to me to sort through the s**t shoveled my way. I don't rely on a particular political party, or news agency for my views. That way, I can get a clearer picture. Many people around the world do the same.
So, if you expect someone to lie, then fall for their lies anyways, then shame on you!
To say that you were right, about a preconceived notion that I accept anything that comes my way, is a very black and white view of the world. You don't have to like the president. I don't. You don't have to respect him either. You have to realize that our leader is privy to more information than will ever be released, and I trust that a sound economic (war is the ultimate economic tool) decision was made in this case. If you don't trust in his motives to protect the U.S., and it's interests, even at the expense of others, then vote him out. That's what separates this nation from many out there.
I look at both sides of political decisions, and the politicians themselves. It's up to me to sort through the s**t shoveled my way. I don't rely on a particular political party, or news agency for my views. That way, I can get a clearer picture. Many people around the world do the same.
So, if you expect someone to lie, then fall for their lies anyways, then shame on you!
I have seeen ZERO information corroborating ANYTHING put out by
the White House, State Dept., or the Pentagon about Saddam and WMD,
Saddam and Al-Quaeda, Saddam and anti-American terrorists , etc.
It it the greatest lie in American history, and there have been some big ones.
That's what we get for having an ignorant Xian zealot in power who listens
to no one outside his chosen circle of thieves and liars.
the White House, State Dept., or the Pentagon about Saddam and WMD,
Saddam and Al-Quaeda, Saddam and anti-American terrorists , etc.
It it the greatest lie in American history, and there have been some big ones.
That's what we get for having an ignorant Xian zealot in power who listens
to no one outside his chosen circle of thieves and liars.
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Waiting for YABA standard defense #125B: CIA Analyst has been out of the loop. Doesn't know what he's talking about.
That's pretty much the assumption that I operate under.
he he he...
Maybe not Machiavelli but how about Lenin who popularized this slogan: "He who is not with us is against us." Or Mao maybe: "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."
Bowfinger, I too would like to beleive in the goodness of our leaders, and humanity as a whole. However, history has shown us that our leaders tend to follw the observations and counsel of Machiavelli far more often than those Ghandi, the Christian Messiah, or Buddah (sp?). As long as that is the case, then nobody should be shocked to hea that a career politician lied. It would be news to me if someone could find a leader that never lied. It's part of humanity. I just try to weigh the good versus bad that results from their lies.
It's a shame, but so long as there are bad people in the world, all leaders must be prepared to do what is necessary, even if that be distasteful. I expect it from my leaders. Sad, but true.......
It's a shame, but so long as there are bad people in the world, all leaders must be prepared to do what is necessary, even if that be distasteful. I expect it from my leaders. Sad, but true.......
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To observe that this behavior is common does NOT make it right. I think this is a fundamental problem with the American electorate today. They not only expect politicians to be scoundrels, they have become so complacent that they accept it as OK.
I do not share this apathy. It is wrong when a politician deceives Americans to advance his political agenda. I know it happens, I expect it, but it is still wrong. It becomes totally unacceptable, however, when the lies raze national interests. In my opinion, George W. Bush lacks the integrity to represent the people of this country.
You misunderstood my statement. I do care about character in a leader. I also realized that cunning, and the use of it is nothing more than a fancy way to lie and deceive. It is truly nice to show virtue, and be of good intentions. It is always the moral highground.
History shows that "princes who have acheived great things have been those who have given their word lightly, who have been known to trick men through cunning, and who, in the end, have overcome those abiding by honest principles" Machiavelli, The Prince
These are musings, (with no links, just what I learned in school, and see on The History Channel) that come to mind when I think of leaders.........
If Kennedy hadn't decieved the the public about the quantities and quality of Russian Nukes (Poor quality, and precious few Russian ones worldwide), would there be Nukes in Cuba? What about if he admitted to being an amphetamine junkie? Would the Cold War still be on had Reagan told the truth, that his administration wanted to bankrupt the Soviets by spending ungodly amounts of money on SDI?. Would Julius Caesar ever have been declared Dictator for Life had he not concealed his intentions, until it was too late (a lie of omission)?. Would Clinton had been President had he admitted to frequent drug use, philandering, and shady busibness associates? Would George W. Busch be President if he came clean about his business dealings, and his former drug use? What about Queen elizabeth I? Would she have been able to launch England into their Golden age without murdering her chief rival? There has not in my opinion, ever been an effective leader that has NOT lied for his country. Jimmy Carter was the closest that we ever had in the U.S. to a virtuous leader, and you see how effective he was. Thrown into the den of snakes that is Congress, he was rendered virtually impotent.
While on this earth, I want goodness and tranquility, but I see the liars for what they are, and their collective name is politician. To say that I am apathetic insinuates that I don't care. That is far from the truth. I just see that it is not likely to happen, and adjust my life accordingly. I do what I can, I vote when candidates are put before me, and I teach my children to seek the truth behind the actions that our leaders take.
History shows that "princes who have acheived great things have been those who have given their word lightly, who have been known to trick men through cunning, and who, in the end, have overcome those abiding by honest principles" Machiavelli, The Prince
These are musings, (with no links, just what I learned in school, and see on The History Channel) that come to mind when I think of leaders.........
If Kennedy hadn't decieved the the public about the quantities and quality of Russian Nukes (Poor quality, and precious few Russian ones worldwide), would there be Nukes in Cuba? What about if he admitted to being an amphetamine junkie? Would the Cold War still be on had Reagan told the truth, that his administration wanted to bankrupt the Soviets by spending ungodly amounts of money on SDI?. Would Julius Caesar ever have been declared Dictator for Life had he not concealed his intentions, until it was too late (a lie of omission)?. Would Clinton had been President had he admitted to frequent drug use, philandering, and shady busibness associates? Would George W. Busch be President if he came clean about his business dealings, and his former drug use? What about Queen elizabeth I? Would she have been able to launch England into their Golden age without murdering her chief rival? There has not in my opinion, ever been an effective leader that has NOT lied for his country. Jimmy Carter was the closest that we ever had in the U.S. to a virtuous leader, and you see how effective he was. Thrown into the den of snakes that is Congress, he was rendered virtually impotent.
While on this earth, I want goodness and tranquility, but I see the liars for what they are, and their collective name is politician. To say that I am apathetic insinuates that I don't care. That is far from the truth. I just see that it is not likely to happen, and adjust my life accordingly. I do what I can, I vote when candidates are put before me, and I teach my children to seek the truth behind the actions that our leaders take.
You seem to be in the wrong universe for that. Here we are unfortunately constrained by the fact that moving finite objects at infinite speeds is impossible. Competition is natural and necessary in our universe.
Sure, just don't sugercoat your fight for more resouce and power as fight for freedom and justice. That just insults people's intelligence
If it's for the good of the country, why on Earth does the president have to make up reasons? Why not just say that it's for the good of the country, and explain why if need be?
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Perhaps so, but there are a whole spectrum of behaviors that fall under the heading of "competition". One doesn't have to be Machiavellian to be competitive. It is possible to be both competitive and moral. One reason the United States has become overrun with two-bit political scoundrels like Bush's minions is that Americans have become too jaded and apathetic. They don't expect their leaders to show integrity, and they don't care when their leaders fail to meet even their low expectations.
So where are the "moral candidates"? You know, the ones with no personal agenda. If you would like to post their names, I'm sure that many would like to see if they are truly selfless and moral as you suggest.
Douglas Adams had a novel idea in his "Hitchiker" series. He wrote that anybody truly wanting to be President of the Galaxy was by definition, unworthy, and that only a person that didn't want the job, could truly be without hidden agendas.
It would take someone falling from the sky, then elected without their own will to run, to find untarnished goods. Even Ghandi theatened the British to make his point, when he told them (I paraphrase) That the thousands of British could not truly do anything to stay in India if the millions of Indians did not wih them there.
Apathy is not the same as acceptance and understanding of human nature. Man has lied since history began. It's a fact. The extent of the lies varies, as does the motivations, but lies they are. A totally black and white view of humanity as right or wrong, is an overly simplistic view of reality and fully fails to encompass true human nature. Man lies, cheats, kills, steals, and a vareity of other behaviors. Some are common in the animal kingdom, while others are unique to man. To realize that no man is without his own agenda, and no man is without sin, is the first step.
Douglas Adams had a novel idea in his "Hitchiker" series. He wrote that anybody truly wanting to be President of the Galaxy was by definition, unworthy, and that only a person that didn't want the job, could truly be without hidden agendas.
It would take someone falling from the sky, then elected without their own will to run, to find untarnished goods. Even Ghandi theatened the British to make his point, when he told them (I paraphrase) That the thousands of British could not truly do anything to stay in India if the millions of Indians did not wih them there.
Apathy is not the same as acceptance and understanding of human nature. Man has lied since history began. It's a fact. The extent of the lies varies, as does the motivations, but lies they are. A totally black and white view of humanity as right or wrong, is an overly simplistic view of reality and fully fails to encompass true human nature. Man lies, cheats, kills, steals, and a vareity of other behaviors. Some are common in the animal kingdom, while others are unique to man. To realize that no man is without his own agenda, and no man is without sin, is the first step.
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You're starting to sound like a Bush apologist. Either that, or you learned reading comprehension from Sir Cad.
As I said before, "there are a whole spectrum of behaviors that fall under the heading of 'competition'. One doesn't have to be Machiavellian to be competitive. It is possible to be both competitive and moral."
It is ridiculous to assert that being a "moral" candidate requires having no personal agenda. Yes, people look out for their self-interests, but that's not the end of the story. In most people, self-interests are tempered by a sense of right and wrong. Most people balance self-interests against their responsibilities. People can and do sacrifice their self-interests for the greater good of others.
Small children place self-interest above everything else. As one matures, most people learn they must co-exist with others. They learn to resist temptation. They learn that altruistic concepts like sharing and taking turns and not hurting others are a necessary part of society. They learn that other people have rights too. Civilization cannot exist without self-control.
There is a difference between understanding human behavior and excusing it. In my opinion, you are the one striking a black and white view of the world. You are saying since all politicians lie, all politician's lies are equal. You are trying to excuse Bush-lite's blatant contempt for the truth, his flagrant disregard for what is right, by claiming other politicians lie too. I find this position deplorable.
All lies are NOT created equal. Some lies can be dismissed as political rhetoric. Other lies represent a complete breach of the public trust. Bush's lies to invade another country, at a cost of thousands of innocent lives and hundreds of billions of dollars, are a clear example of breaching the public trust.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
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