CIA Analyst: 'No President has lied so baldly and so often and so demonstrably'

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Here's a short interview with Ray McGovern, former Senior CIA Analyst who worked for Kissinger and Reagan. When last we heard from McGovern, he had just gone public with several other intelligence analysts to express their concern about the White House's manipulation of Iraqi intel. It doesn't sound like he's gotten over it.

From the U.K. Independent:
'No President has lied so baldly and so often and so demonstrably'
By Andrew Gumbel

09 November 2003


"The intelligence process is a bit like virginity," says Ray McGovern, who worked as a CIA analyst for 27 years. "Once you prostitute it, it's never the same. Your credibility never recovers.

"Watching what has happened with Iraq over the past several months has been like watching your daughter being raped."

Such is an indication of the extraordinary depth of feeling within the US intelligence community as the Bush administration's basis for the war in Iraq - the weapons of mass destruction, the dark hint of links between Saddam Hussein and al-Qa'ida - has been shown to have been built on air.

Mr McGovern worked near the very top of his profession, giving direct advice to Henry Kissinger during the Nixon era and preparing the President's daily security brief for Ronald Reagan. Now he is co-founder of a group of former CIA employees called Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, or Vips for short.

What the Bush White House has done, he believes, is far worse than the false premise that dragged the United States into the Vietnam War
- a reported second attack on a US destroyer in the Gulf of Tonkin which later turned out not to have taken place. "The Gulf of Tonkin was a spur-of-the-moment thing, and Lyndon Johnson seized on that. That's very different from the very calculated, 18-month, orchestrated, incredibly cynical campaign of lies that we've seen to justify a war. This is an order of magnitude different. It's so blatant."

Mr McGovern accuses Mr Bush of an extraordinary act of chutzpah - taking advantage of his authority as President of the United States to make people believe there must be something to his insistent allegations that Iraq possessed potentially devastating weaponry.

"Many of us felt there had to be something there ... If this had been another country, one would have written a convincing analysis that this guy is lying through his teeth, that there are no weapons in Iraq. But people thought, the President can't say he knows something if he doesn't. That was persuasive, in a way.

"Now we know that no other President of the United States has ever lied so baldly and so often and so demonstrably ... The presumption now has to be that he's lying any time that he's saying anything."

It will, Mr McGovern believes, take a change of president and a change of CIA director to even begin to repair the damage done by what he sees as an overt politicisation of the intelligence business. But even that may not be enough.

"Unless what has happened in the past year and a half is recognised as a scandal, in which the CIA has been badly abused, then there's no hope," he said. "I pin my hopes mostly on the press these days. Turns out, surprise surprise, that even the US press doesn't like to be lied to."

 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Waiting for YABA standard defense #125B: CIA Analyst has been out of the loop. Doesn't know what he's talking about. ;)

"Now we know that no other President of the United States has ever lied so baldly and so often and so demonstrably ... The presumption now has to be that he's lying any time that he's saying anything."

That's pretty much the assumption that I operate under.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Waiting for YABA standard defense #125B: CIA Analyst has been out of the loop. Doesn't know what he's talking about. ;)

"Now we know that no other President of the United States has ever lied so baldly and so often and so demonstrably ... The presumption now has to be that he's lying any time that he's saying anything."
That's pretty much the assumption that I operate under.
If nothing else, it saves time.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
" former Senior CIA Analyst "

His opinion holds as much water as Clark's before the war
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,302
0
76
I have to laugh. Every left-wing democratic organization has a piece published by these "Sanity" guys on their website. I am no conspiracy theorist, but it makes you go "hmm"....:p
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Nothing is true... everything is an illusion. The invasion ... an illusion... Iraq... it never existed.

No one wants their team to lose. Ever notice when the umpire calls the runner safe it's only the defensive team that argues. You are taught to only accept as true what you believe in. But, those who see the instant replay and say he was out know that it don't really matter cuz he is deemed safe and that is all that really counts. The President counts on this attitude. I remember when Nixon was being impeached... So many folks said he was not guilty.. a fine president even after the tapes came out.
It is so human.. :D
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: rbloedow
" former Senior CIA Analyst "

His opinion holds as much water as Clark's before the war

Since, of course, we know that you've served in the CIA and can offer relevent conjecture?
 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
3,038
0
76
Originally posted by: Jmman
I have to laugh. Every left-wing democratic organization has a piece published by these "Sanity" guys on their website. I am no conspiracy theorist, but it makes you go "hmm"....:p

no need to flirt with conspiracy. leave those demons with the partisans who know how to tame them.

dr. kay's preliminary report proved what the administration long suspected, that saddam hussein continued to hide wmd
capabilities, possessed wmd materiel, and, not too surprisingly, had begun to explore the potential of wonderful new poisons.
brilliant as usual, saddam.

read the report, the very preliminary report. if you want a chuckle, assuming you're not already aware of this, read the report
and then compare the text with the liberal's interpretation. you'll quickly discover under just what psychological circumstances
a person's reading comprehension abilities turn on them.
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
0
0
Originally posted by: syzygy
Originally posted by: Jmman
I have to laugh. Every left-wing democratic organization has a piece published by these "Sanity" guys on their website. I am no conspiracy theorist, but it makes you go "hmm"....:p

no need to flirt with conspiracy. leave those demons with the partisans who know how to tame them.

dr. kay's preliminary report proved what the administration long suspected, that saddam hussein continued to hide wmd
capabilities, possessed wmd materiel, and, not too surprisingly, had begun to explore the potential of wonderful new poisons.
brilliant as usual, saddam.

read the report, the very preliminary report. if you want a chuckle, assuming you're not already aware of this, read the report
and then compare the text with the liberal's interpretation. you'll quickly discover under just what psychological circumstances
a person's reading comprehension abilities turn on them.



read the Report. Talks alot of "Possible duel Use Technology"


Do you know how much duel use technology actually exists. The Bottom line is the Kay report talks only about the iraqi government owning Plans to build WMD and how to build them. The YABA now say that this is why we needed to Invade Iraq. To Prevent Terrorists from Getting PLANS to Build WMD. when in truth we were told of Mushroom clouds and artillery shells and radio controled airplanes that could afly thousands of Miles.
Our allies talking of attacks in 45 minutes. Mobile biological labs actually used to fill Hot air Ballons. Aint that the truth, we were chasing HOT AIR.

The politication of Intelligence Should be the greatest sin in this country. In Inner Circles of the Cia which is filled with DE-Fence minded Republicans want Bush's head on a platter

Yaba
Yaba
Yaba
Yaba
Yaba
Yaba
Yaba
Yaba
Yaba
Yaba

The only violation of Un security council resolution saddam appered to have commited are the fact that his al samoud missles traveled 9 more miles than what was allowed by the Un.

WE were told Iraq was an imminent threat, hence the pre-emptive doctrine.

Now wwe are told we went in before they became a imminent threat. I guess that means we were pre emting a Pre emtive measure.

I guess terrorists cant get the sceintific materials off of the Internet to mfg Anthrax. All you need is some dead goats and sheep.




I thought conservatives, True Conservatives want to LIMIT the power of the federal government. Well This is plain and simple an ABUSE of EXECUTIVE power and a failure of Checks and balances. Get off your partisan Soapbox and vote for your Beliefs. If you are a REAL conservative, Their is no Justification for Voting for President Bush in 2004. If you do, you are a partisan Sheep following the masters Whim.

 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
Does it really matter why the thug was removed? Do the three hundreds of thousands of civilians in mass, unmarked graves care? I don't. Any excuse would have been enough. Hell! If he was seen jaywalking, It should have been enough! To have a thug like that in control of the Middle East isn't in the interests of the United States. He isn't now, nor never was a useful puppet, or a trustworty foe, so what use was he? Sure, the U.S. President relied on possibly faulty intel, and didn't have to beleive it, but he was looking for an excuse, and got one. All is said and done, Saddam is gone, and the people will be free free to muck up their own country as soon as they set up a legitimate government. If they elect an idiot, then it's on them, much as it is on us every time we elect one. So long as the new government isn't a threat to the U.S. or it's interests it will be free to kill as many people as it wishes, just like in Africa. Won't that make many on this forum chortle with glee.

 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
"Now we know that no other President of the United States has ever lied so baldly and so often and so demonstrably ... The presumption now has to be that he's lying any time that he's saying anything."

Where was he when Clinton was lying he little head off? No pres ever lied so baldly? LOL 'I did not have sexual relations' is WAY more bald than anything bush did. This guy's credibility went down the toilet with that one statement.
 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
0
0
Mr McGovern accuses Mr Bush of an extraordinary act of chutzpah - taking advantage of his authority as President of the United States to make people believe there must be something to his insistent allegations that Iraq possessed potentially devastating weaponry.

right, i see "accuses" in there, but i dont see any proof about his lying. give me proof, no some idiots constant bantering because he hates bush.
 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
3,038
0
76
Originally posted by: smashp
Originally posted by: syzygy
Originally posted by: Jmman
I have to laugh. Every left-wing democratic organization has a piece published by these "Sanity" guys on their website. I am no conspiracy theorist, but it makes you go "hmm"....:p

no need to flirt with conspiracy. leave those demons with the partisans who know how to tame them.

dr. kay's preliminary report proved what the administration long suspected, that saddam hussein continued to hide wmd
capabilities, possessed wmd materiel, and, not too surprisingly, had begun to explore the potential of wonderful new poisons.
brilliant as usual, saddam.

read the report, the very preliminary report. if you want a chuckle, assuming you're not already aware of this, read the report
and then compare the text with the liberal's interpretation. you'll quickly discover under just what psychological circumstances
a person's reading comprehension abilities turn on them.

read the Report. Talks alot of "Possible duel Use Technology"

Do you know how much duel use technology actually exists. The Bottom line is the Kay report talks only about the iraqi government owning Plans to build WMD and how to build them. The YABA now say that this is why we needed to Invade Iraq. To Prevent Terrorists from Getting PLANS to Build WMD. when in truth we were told of Mushroom clouds and artillery shells and radio controled airplanes that could afly thousands of Miles.
Our allies talking of attacks in 45 minutes. Mobile biological labs actually used to fill Hot air Ballons. Aint that the truth, we were chasing HOT AIR.

I thought conservatives, True Conservatives want to LIMIT the power of the federal government. Well This is plain and simple an ABUSE of EXECUTIVE power and a failure of Checks and balances. Get off your partisan Soapbox and vote for your Beliefs. If you are a REAL conservative, Their is no Justification for Voting for President Bush in 2004. If you do, you are a partisan Sheep following the masters Whim.


the usual gibberish, very predictable, and i think i should apologize for goading someone as vulnerable as you. this undoubtedly contitutes some
form of child abuse.

as if this will do you any good, here anyway is a listing of wmd facilities, weapons, and on-going programs dr. david kay discovered:
* A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.

* A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.

* Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.

* New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.

* Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).

* A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of  500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.

* Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the UN.

* Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km - well beyond the 150 km range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.

* Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.

these findings clearly prove saddam was in violation of resolution 1441, and managed - yet again - to deceive u.n. weapons inpsectors.
but more important than his violation of yet another paper resolution is that the evidence shows that saddam continued to harbor a desire to
build and expand his wmd program in a number of different ways. this is clear evidence that far from dissuading him, u.n. and int'l pressure
only emboldened him to ratchet up his nefarious activities to levels that many had not even fathomed. ofcourse, saddam, complied with the
u.n. simplistic demands that he 'dis-arm' so he destroyed as many of the actual wmd as feasible while preparing for the inevitable day
when the inspectors would leave, the u.n. would be appeased, and he would re-enter the good graces of his gutless defenders.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: syzygy
Originally posted by: Jmman
I have to laugh. Every left-wing democratic organization has a piece published by these "Sanity" guys on their website. I am no conspiracy theorist, but it makes you go "hmm"....:p

no need to flirt with conspiracy. leave those demons with the partisans who know how to tame them.

dr. kay's preliminary report proved what the administration long suspected, that saddam hussein continued to hide wmd
capabilities, possessed wmd materiel, and, not too surprisingly, had begun to explore the potential of wonderful new poisons.
brilliant as usual, saddam.

read the report, the very preliminary report. if you want a chuckle, assuming you're not already aware of this, read the report
and then compare the text with the liberal's interpretation. you'll quickly discover under just what psychological circumstances
a person's reading comprehension abilities turn on them.

Oh crap! I didn't know this. If I had...
Because I distinctly remember our president addressing the nation and stating "We are going to war because we have solid evidence that Iraq continues to hide WMD capabilities, possessed WMD material, and had begun to explore the potential of wonderful new poisons." (OK, I have no clue what you're saying with that last one)

 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: maluckey
Does it really matter why the thug was removed? Do the three hundreds of thousands of civilians in mass, unmarked graves care? I don't. Any excuse would have been enough. Hell! If he was seen jaywalking, It should have been enough! To have a thug like that in control of the Middle East isn't in the interests of the United States. He isn't now, nor never was a useful puppet, or a trustworty foe, so what use was he? Sure, the U.S. President relied on possibly faulty intel, and didn't have to beleive it, but he was looking for an excuse, and got one. All is said and done, Saddam is gone, and the people will be free free to muck up their own country as soon as they set up a legitimate government. If they elect an idiot, then it's on them, much as it is on us every time we elect one. So long as the new government isn't a threat to the U.S. or it's interests it will be free to kill as many people as it wishes, just like in Africa. Won't that make many on this forum chortle with glee.

Tell me maluckey, do you care if we were mislead/ lied to by our president? Saddam is gone. Yes, that's a good thing. But, in your mind, do you consider waging war for reasons that were untrue bad? I may be wrong, but from reading your first sentence I think you probably belong to the 'Good came of the war so no questions should be asked' people.

 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Waiting for YABA standard defense #125B: CIA Analyst has been out of the loop. Doesn't know what he's talking about. ;)
If nothing else, it saves time.

I called it! It only took some jackhole less than 40 minutes to do so... :)
 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
5,755
0
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Waiting for YABA standard defense #125B: CIA Analyst has been out of the loop. Doesn't know what he's talking about. ;)
If nothing else, it saves time.

I called it! It only took some jackhole less than 40 minutes to do so... :)

Which is eight times longer than it took for you to come in the thread and start jacking off Bowfinger.
 

DT4K

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2002
6,944
3
81
If Bush is so dishonest, why didn't he just have a CIA team plant some Sarin or something. Seems like it would have been an easy thing to do.


 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Ultra Quiet
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Waiting for YABA standard defense #125B: CIA Analyst has been out of the loop. Doesn't know what he's talking about. ;)
If nothing else, it saves time.

I called it! It only took some jackhole less than 40 minutes to do so... :)

Which is eight times longer than it took for you to come in the thread and start jacking off Bowfinger.

So predictable...
rolleye.gif
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Ultra Quiet
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Waiting for YABA standard defense #125B: CIA Analyst has been out of the loop. Doesn't know what he's talking about. ;)
If nothing else, it saves time.

I called it! It only took some jackhole less than 40 minutes to do so... :)

Which is eight times longer than it took for you to come in the thread and start jacking off Bowfinger.

So predictable...
rolleye.gif

As was your little "prediction" ;)

CkG
 

rjain

Golden Member
May 1, 2003
1,475
0
0
Originally posted by: Shanti
If Bush is so dishonest, why didn't he just have a CIA team plant some Sarin or something. Seems like it would have been an easy thing to do.
Because he didn't inherit his daddy's respect in the organization.
 

DT4K

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2002
6,944
3
81
Originally posted by: rjain
Originally posted by: Shanti
If Bush is so dishonest, why didn't he just have a CIA team plant some Sarin or something. Seems like it would have been an easy thing to do.
Because he didn't inherit his daddy's respect in the organization.

He could have them do whatever he wanted.