christopher hitchens

[buckshot24]

Actually, this isn't at all true. NO Christian believes God "poofed" anything into existence.

They think engineering is magic, which I find interesting.

 

[Retro Rob]

Did he poof the things to make the universe into existence? You know..the parts to put together the earth etc.

It doesn't say. Genesis 1:1 simply says: "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and Earth".

That's not "poofing", however.

 

[fskimospy]

Actually, this isn't at all true. NO Christian believes God "poofed" anything into existence.

In fact, the Bible repeatedly says as regards the creation narrative as it relates to biological organisms: "God created", or "let the earth bring forth". and "God began to make"...these are terms humans use to describe the process of making things...not "poofing" them into existence.

I just figured that I'd point this out to you because you're simply misrepresenting the narrative, and then criticizing your misrepresentation.

The poof part was not really the important part.

If it helps, feel free to substitute the following:

To believe something happened a certain way doesn't require certainty, it just requires meaningful evidence that points more towards that than anything else. He appears to think there is approximately equal evidence that self-replicating molecules could arise through natural processes and that a magical man in the sky who is omnipotent, omniscient, and personally interested in your sex life made them.

 

[buckshot24]

Instead of providing scientific evidence for his irrational belief Mr. Eskimo makes it clear that science has nothing to do with it.

 

[Retro Rob]

They think engineering is magic, which I find interesting.

Only when God does it, it "magic", when a human does it, its intelligence and ingenuity.

Not being able to "see" the engineer doesn't mean it wasn't engineered.

 

[MongGrel]

Did he poof the things to make the universe into existence? You know..the parts to put together the earth etc.

Sounds to me there was some poofing involved.

 

[soulcougher73]

Do you theists ever wonder who created your God or where God came from? I mean if he "just exists" then the same logic could apply to the universe without a God having created it. Its basically a non answer.

Or does God have a God that created him? But that just leads into a infinite loop.

I mean i have my rational/logical answer to it. But im curious what you guys believe and how you rationalize it.

 

[soulcougher73]

Only when God does it, it "magic", when a human does it, its intelligence and ingenuity.

Not being able to "see" the engineer doesn't mean it wasn't engineered.

Isnt that kind of a no duh statement? Unless humans have developed magical means of creating things recently im not aware of. I try to follow the news but sometimes im a bit behind and could have missed that part.

 

[MongGrel]

They think engineering is magic, which I find interesting.

News to me.

You seem to be in your own little world.

Or know no engineers/scientists personally.

 

[fskimospy]

Instead of providing scientific evidence for his irrational belief Mr. Eskimo makes it clear that science has nothing to do with it.

You don't understand what the word 'rational' means. Science has everything to do with it, but you're not capable of rationally evaluating evidence.

There is some evidence that indicates how life could have come to be from naturalistic causes. There is literally zero evidence that it was created by a supernatural being. Rational evaluation of the available evidence means that someone will consider naturalistic causes as being more probable than supernatural causes, as some evidence is greater than zero evidence. This is not complicated, you just have to be able to look past your own wishful thinking and rationally evaluate the evidence.

If you think a magical man in the sky who is deeply concerned with your genitalia making everything is more probable than naturalistic to you that's great. Don't pretend it's rational though.

 

[Retro Rob]

To believe something happened a certain way doesn't require certainty, it just requires meaningful evidence that points more towards that than anything else. He appears to think there is approximately equal evidence that self-replicating molecules could arise through natural processes and that a magical man in the sky who is omnipotent, omniscient, and personally interested in your sex life made them.

No, it doesn't require certainty, so I agree with that.

 

[fskimospy]

Only when God does it, it "magic", when a human does it, its intelligence and ingenuity.

Not being able to "see" the engineer doesn't mean it wasn't engineered.

Well considering that most Christian theology grants god supernatural, literally omnipotent powers that exist outside of space and time, how is that anything other than magic as we commonly define it?

From google:

the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

 

[buckshot24]

To believe something happened a certain way doesn't require certainty, it just requires meaningful evidence that points more towards that than anything else.

What evidence? There is none.

He appears to think there is approximately equal evidence that self-replicating molecules could arise through natural processes and that a magical man in the sky who is omnipotent, omniscient, and personally interested in your sex life made them.

Which confirms that you believe this ridiculous unevidenced illogical notion because you don't like the alternative. The most logical thing to do is believe in some sort of intelligence designing living things. Nothing that we know was designed is as complex but you think it is rational to believe a bunch of lucky copying errors accomplished this design? Get real.

 

[soulcougher73]

What evidence? There is none.

Show me yours and ill show you mine?

 

[jackstar7]

I was implying that if WE DID understand our origins AND they are completely unguided and just lucky; people have no real intrinsic value. We're just "meat machines" dancing to our genetic codes. We aren't any better and worth protecting more than pigs and goats. Any meaning we put on ourselves is an illusion.

Again, you're implying that there is an origin that creates inherent value. Why would that be the case? Again, you're implying that there is some value in where/how one is born, an idea that has no basis in rational thought.

 

[Retro Rob]

Well considering that most Christian theology grants god supernatural, literally omnipotent powers that exist outside of space and time, how is that anything other than magic as we commonly define it?

To a caveman, a cell phone would be "magic", but that's not actually "magic".

It's due to a lack of information, unless people simply wish to caricature the narrative.

 

[buckshot24]

Again, you're implying that there is an origin that creates inherent value. Why would that be the case? Again, you're implying that there is some value in where/how one is born, an idea that has no basis in rational thought.

Nope. If we're evolved bags of molecules there is no inherent value is an independent fact.

 

[fskimospy]

What evidence? There is none.

Of course there is, there just isn't conclusive evidence. We can generate the building blocks of life through lab experiments for example.

Which confirms that you believe this ridiculous unevidenced illogical notion because you don't like the alternative. The most logical thing to do is believe in some sort of intelligence designing living things. Nothing that we know was designed is as complex but you think it is rational to believe a bunch of lucky copying errors accomplished this design? Get real.

You are projecting again. I would actually greatly prefer there to be a god, as I find the prospect of death to be terrifying. That doesn't change the fact that there is literally not a single solitary shred of evidence for supernatural creation of life.

Literally zero.

Some evidence is greater than none, so that's game over until more evidence arises. If you are rational you will agree.

 

[buckshot24]

To a caveman, a cell phone would be "magic", but that's not actually "magic".

It's due to a lack of information, unless people simply wish to caricature the narrative.

They believe in magic but without a magician.

 

[soulcougher73]

To a caveman, a cell phone would be "magic", but that's not actually "magic".

It's due to a lack of information, unless people simply wish to caricature the narrative.

And to a biblical time person a volcano erupting, tidal wave, lightning storm would have been magic. We know now its not actually magic but mother nature. Hell we can even predict them coming/happening now.

Should say something about what you just said.

 

[fskimospy]

Nope. If we're evolved bags of molecules there is no inherent value is an independent fact.

You believe that inherent value can be assigned by a magical man in the sky but not by people. This is illogical.

 

[JD50]

I was implying that if WE DID understand our origins AND they are completely unguided and just lucky; people have no real intrinsic value. We're just "meat machines" dancing to our genetic codes. We aren't any better and worth protecting more than pigs and goats. Any meaning we put on ourselves is an illusion.

You're projecting.

I have plenty of meaning in my life, mainly my wife and children, and that has nothing to do with believing in a god.

 

[jackstar7]

Nope. If we're evolved bags of molecules there is no inherent value is an independent fact.

And again, you're implying that there is an origin where people are imbued with some inherent value: an idea that is unsupported by reason.

 

[soulcougher73]

They believe in magic but without a magician.

Negative. Do you even know what you are arguing against or about anymore? I think you've lost your marbles son.

 

[buckshot24]

And again, you're implying that there is an origin where people are imbued with some inherent value: an idea that is unsupported by reason.

No need for that assumption.