Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)

[soccerballtux]

No faith is not how you reach conclusions.

1 + 1 = 2.

Logic. I don't have faith the answer is two, i have just proved logically that it is two. Remove observation and all you have is logic.

You haven't proved your reliance on logic as a universal.
For all you know, somewhere in the universe, 1+1 might equal 3.

 

[HAL9000]

You're saying... logic is unnatural?

If it is natural, then how does it take something to utilize it? Humans utilize things. If we didn't I imagine we'd have been hunted to extinction a long time ago, as animals find us to be delicious.

I'm saying logic is natural, it is innate, We are born with the capacity to reason.

 

[soccerballtux]

You're saying... logic is unnatural?

If it is natural, then how does it take something to utilize it? Humans utilize things. If we didn't I imagine we'd have been hunted to extinction a long time ago, as animals find us to be delicious.

as an attribute of God's character, no it is not unnatural.
But to use it as a universal law? That is unnatural.

 

[soccerballtux]

I'm saying logic is natural, it is innate, We are born with the capacity to reason.

what does that mean? It's just a chemical reaction. Nothing more.

 

[HAL9000]

You haven't proved your reliance on logic as a universal.
For all you know, somewhere in the universe, 1+1 might equal 3.

No it's a fact. It is the only infallible fact that we can completely rely on it's one of the laws of the universe. Logic.

as an attribute of God's character, no it is not unnatural.
But to use it as a universal law? That is unnatural.

Logic has nothing to do with god, it's the opposite. Every person uses it is a law to live by.

 

[soccerballtux]

I don't believe you have that correct.

Is it ironic to say the devil is in the details?

Puns are fun 🙂

 

[HAL9000]

what does that mean? It's just a chemical reaction. Nothing more.

It's a concept.

 

[soccerballtux]

No it's a fact. It is the only infallible fact that we can completely rely on it's one of the laws of the universe. Logic.

So you've been to the other end of the universe to make sure? What if it's different over there? How do you know?

 

[soccerballtux]

It's a concept.

Right. Not a universal law.

 

[jackstar7]

Not so, atheists have logic. With absolute answers. No faith blurring things.

Which absolute answers do you have?

My point was that being curious and questioning is not only found in atheists, but is found in them more so (in my experience).

The notion of an absolute outside of mathematics just comes off as absurd.

 

[HAL9000]

So you've been to the other end of the universe to make sure? What if it's different over there? How do you know?

I don't need to. if you take away everything the only thing you are left with is the ability to question. I think therefore I am, questioning based on reason is all we can truly rely on.

 

[jackstar7]

as an attribute of God's character, no it is not unnatural.
But to use it as a universal law? That is unnatural.

Can you elaborate on the wrongness of logic in this context?

 

[HAL9000]

Which absolute answers do you have?

My point was that being curious and questioning is not only found in atheists, but is found in them more so (in my experience).

The notion of an absolute outside of mathematics just comes off as absurd.

1 + 1 = 2.

The basics of logic are absolute.

a premise + a valid argument = a conclusion. This is absolute. The perfect argument is absolute.

 

[soccerballtux]

I don't need to.

You do if you want to rely on it as a universal law.

 

[HAL9000]

Right. Not a universal law.

Universal laws are concepts.

 

[soccerballtux]

Can you elaborate on the wrongness of logic in this context?

if, at the end of the day, we die and that's it, then it's a meaningless chemical reaction, and someone has no more reason to listen to it than they do to murder someone they don't like.

 

[HAL9000]

You do if you want to rely on it as a universal law.

No I don't, it's absolute. In any place or time the concept of what 1 is cannot change.

 

[zsdersw]

Where did I say it was without consequence? I said it doesn't matter. As in, you die, cease to exist, does not matter to that being any more.

You said "absolutely no consequence whatsoever" to you answering "yes" to the question 'do people need god as a crutch' if god doesn't exist.

Well the bible is inspired by his existence, so if you want to know about him a good place to start is there.
Past that, regarding listening to him, I would ask him for help, and keep asking. Sometimes we don't get help or answers immediately. I find he does this to give us a greater desire for him. Why does he do this? One reason, not the only, is because he knows at the end of the day we'll be more satisfied because of it. There's a "kick" he gets out of it, similar to the "kick" you get when you spend time with your child and watch him turn into a young man. Such is how he views us. Such is why he is our Father.

How do you distinguish and separate all of that from a construct that exists only in your mind?

There are two answers, they contradict each other somewhat, but because God is God and thus infinite, it's not exactly a problem: In no particular order:
1. Because he's God.
2. He doesn't. He does it for our benefit. It's up to us whether we are interested in what is best for us. The fall came when Adam & Eve doubted God and believed he was holding something back from us. This was the first lapse of Faith in God as observed in humanity.

Some of us need #1 at a particular time in our life, then need #2, then back to #1. Only you and God know which you need at any moment.

Yes, I can see the analog to a father/son relationship; a father is at times an authority figure and at others a mentor and guide. See the question I asked in my previous paragraph.

 

[HAL9000]

if, at the end of the day, we die and that's it, then it's a meaningless chemical reaction, and someone has no more reason to listen to it than they do to murder someone they don't like.

Yes they do, it's called Ethics. Morality. Empathy these things exist without religion.

 

[soccerballtux]

Universal laws are concepts.

for a different definition of concept yes, but, not the one I was talking about.

 

[soccerballtux]

Yes they do, it's called Ethics. Morality. Empathy

But why should they listen to the morality over the urge to kill?

 

[HAL9000]

for a different definition of concept yes, but, not the one I was talking about.

What are you talking about?

Logic is a absolute absolute.

Ethics is a relative absolute.

That is to say one persons pure logic does not differ from anothers.

However one persons ethics do differ from anothers.

 

[HAL9000]

But why should they listen to the morality over the urge to kill?

Empathy.

 

[zsdersw]

But why should they listen to the morality over the urge to kill?

Consequences to one's freedom and happiness. We're social beings; we don't do well in isolation, which is what one would soon have if the "urge to kill" was acted upon.

 

[HAL9000]

Consequences to one's freedom and happiness. We're social beings; we don't do well in isolation, which is what one would soon have if the "urge to kill" was acted upon.

Exactly it's our ability to empathise the fact that the victim you have the urge to kill will lose freedom and happiness. A conscience is just empathy for people suffering.