Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)

[soccerballtux]

There are plenty of explanations, only a few of which contain creator gods. The rest are mathematical theories.

and they remain theories for a reason.

Which is why they must be believed by faith if one is going to believe them.
At which point, you might as well believe in God.
Unless you don't like him.

 

[HAL9000]

Coming from you ... there's logic fail.


If you are the spokesperson for atheism ... then all atheists should board the Titanic.

And if you're the spooks person for all of American then someone should bomb the country, but your not and I'm not so fuck off.

Indeed.
Understanding that the probability of something being close to 0 percent is very different from a "belief" which has no basis in empirical evidence. Though it's not the same as "believing in nothing" (pure nihilism), Atheism simply implies, that one does not recognize the possibility of a supernatural being such as a "god" as being realistic.

Exactly. Following logic is not a belief, if it were then Maths would be a religions and so would Science, but they aren't religions.

 

[drebo]

As above - Atheism is not a religion. Atheists do not believe in any god.

Agnostics do believe in a god. But assert that the mind/will of God is unknowable and (therefore) it is false to practice a codified religion.

Belief in God, a god, a diety, or anything else, is not a prerequisite for a religion. A religion is a set of ideas and ideals. Atheism fits that mold perfectly.

 

[HAL9000]

Atheism absolutely is a religion. It has very devout followers who are just as crazy as the crazies in other religions.

But, of course, you don't want to hear that, so you're going to stick your head in the sand and scream until I go away.

Atheism has followers in the same way that gravity has followers. I follow gravity the same as I follow the fact that god doesn't exit. Neither are religions.

 

[HAL9000]

Belief in God, a god, a diety, or anything else, is not a prerequisite for a religion. A religion is a set of ideas and ideals. Atheism fits that mold perfectly.

Not so, atheism is a lack of ideas or ideals, it's just a single conclusion based logic. There is no belief in atheism, as there is no belief in maths. neither are religion

Dictionary.com - Religion:

re·li·gion   
[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.
religions, Archaic . religious rites.
8.
Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

 

[zsdersw]

If there is no God, then my answering "yes" to that has absolutely no consequence whatsoever-- it truly does not mater.

Nothing is without consequence. Convinced of the usefulness of our own individual crutches, we often assume others will, and especially should, find them useful as well.. which has historically led to some significantly dangerous and violent consequences.

That's why we listen to what he says, not what we think in our limited understanding is correct. We walk by faith based on what he tells us. The intellectual understanding comes later.

What does "he" say? Does he say the same things to everyone or are the messages unique to each person? How do you know these messages are from god and not from your own mind?

Facts and logic are a guide to our relationship with God, but if we make our belief in God derivative of logic, then it's not of faith. And it impossible to please God without faith, for everyone who would draw near to him must first believe that he exists, and that he rewards those who seek him.

Why does god require that we please him?

 

[soccerballtux]

Not so, atheism is a lack of ideas or ideals, it's just a single conclusion based logic. There is no belief in atheism, as there is no belief in maths. neither are religion

the atheist assumes he can rely on logic.
He can't argue for or against God without it.
Yet he can't justify the reliance on logic without logic itself.

Last I checked, cyclical reasoning is considered a logical fallacy.

 

[HAL9000]

Why does god require that we please him?

I can answer this! Because "god" in this instance is whoever put the idea in the believers head, requiring his compliance. 🙂

Long story short: There is no god.

 

[HAL9000]

the atheist assumes he can rely on logic.
He can't argue for or against God without it.
Yet he can't justify the reliance on logic without logic itself.

Last I checked, cyclical reasoning is considered a logical fallacy.

Logic is all we have, it's innate and absolute to the sane.

No arguments can be had without logic, because language is based on logic. Without logic all these concepts and notions do not exist.

There is nothing but logic and empiricism, however empiricism can't be used to debate without logic/reason.

 

[CrazyHelloDeli]

Humanity didn't put humanities sins on Jesus, God/Jesus did as an undeserved gift. Christ was offered by God, through God, AS God via his infinite loving grace. It is the prerogative of the wronged(God) to issue forgiveness of, and to, the wrongdoers(Humanity). Hitchens vicarious redemption via human sacrifice claim is only half true and purposely interpreted negatively. Namely, its demonstratively not Christian doctrine, nor has it ever been, that humanity decided the terms of its vicarious redemption and arbitrarily put them on some "eccentric preacher", crucified him, washed their hands and called it a day.

Hitchens, because he doesn't believe in Christian doctrine and theology, purposely leaves out fundamental aspects of Christian claims allowing him to build a straw-man par excellence. It's akin to attempting to disprove the Pythagorean theorem by changing the operator and removing a few exponents, then claiming how stupid and false it is.

 

[jackstar7]

so you agree you have no explanation at all for exactly how the universe as we know it popped into existence from nothing?

Athiests I know (perhaps not representative of the whole of them) tend to have an easier time with unanswered questions in their life.

 

[drebo]

Not so, atheism is a lack of ideas or ideals, it's just a single conclusion based logic. There is no belief in atheism, as there is no belief in maths. neither are religion

As stated, belief is not a prerequisite for a religion. A religion is a set of ideas and ideals. That's atheism.

Atheism is the idea that a god does not exist. Atheists hold the ideals that anyone who doesn't agree with them are morons.

I'm not seeing a difference.

You can play with semantics all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that atheism plays in society as much like a religion as any other organized religion does. The fact that it isn't organized into a "church" is entirely incidental.

 

[zsdersw]

and they remain theories for a reason.

Which is why they must be believed by faith if one is going to believe them.
At which point, you might as well believe in God.
Unless you don't like him.

Why is belief in any of them required?

 

[HAL9000]

Why is belief in any of them required?

Logical, mathematical and scientific theories require no faith.

 

[HAL9000]

As stated, belief is not a prerequisite for a religion. A religion is a set of ideas and ideals. That's atheism.

Atheism is the idea that a god does not exist. Atheists hold the ideals that anyone who doesn't agree with them are morons.

I'm not seeing a difference.

You can play with semantics all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that atheism plays in society as much like a religion as any other organized religion does. The fact that it isn't organized into a "church" is entirely incidental.

According to Dictionary.com belief is a prerequisite for a religion.

Dictionary.com - Religion:

re·li·gion   
[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.
religions, Archaic . religious rites.
8.
Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

If you define religion as simply a group with shared ideas (which in English - we don't) then everyone is in the religion of maths, and the religion of science, and the religion of england, or the religion of america. These aren't religions they are just groups of people.

 

[soccerballtux]

Nothing is without consequence. Convinced of the usefulness of our own individual crutches, we often assume others will, and especially should, find them useful as well.. which has historically led to some significantly dangerous and violent consequences.

Where did I say it was without consequence? I said it doesn't matter. As in, you die, cease to exist, does not matter to that being any more.

What does "he" say? Does he say the same things to everyone or are the messages unique to each person? How do you know these messages are from god and not from your own mind?

Well the bible is inspired by his existence, so if you want to know about him a good place to start is there.
Past that, regarding listening to him, I would ask him for help, and keep asking. Sometimes we don't get help or answers immediately. I find he does this to give us a greater desire for him. Why does he do this? One reason, not the only, is because he knows at the end of the day we'll be more satisfied because of it. There's a "kick" he gets out of it, similar to the "kick" you get when you spend time with your child and watch him turn into a young man. Such is how he views us. Such is why he is our Father.

Why does god require that we please him?

There are two answers, they contradict each other somewhat, but because God is God and thus infinite, it's not exactly a problem: In no particular order:
1. Because he's God.
2. He doesn't. He does it for our benefit. It's up to us whether we are interested in what is best for us. The fall came when Adam & Eve doubted God and believed he was holding something back from us. This was the first lapse of Faith in God as observed in humanity.

Some of us need #1 at a particular time in our life, then need #2, then back to #1. Only you and God know which you need at any moment.

 

[HAL9000]

Well the bible is inspired by his existence, so if you want to know about him a good place to start is there.
Past that, regarding listening to him, I would ask him for help, and keep asking. Sometimes we don't get help or answers immediately. I find he does this to give us a greater desire for hi...

Sigh... 🙄

 

[soccerballtux]

Logic is all we have, it's innate and absolute to the sane.

No arguments can be had without logic, because language is based on logic. Without logic all these concepts and notions do not exist.

There is nothing but logic and empiricism, however empiricism can't be used to debate without logic/reason.

yes, you are free to observe these things, but without faith you are stuck in the "observing" stages.
It takes "faith" to be able to jump to the conclusion that "because we observe logic, we can therefor use it"
The statement in itself is a syllogism, a construct of logic/math.

 

[jackstar7]

The fall came when Adam & Eve doubted God and believed he was holding something back from us. This was the first lapse of Faith in God as observed in humanity.

Just throwing this out there... in the story, god is actually holding something back: the two trees.

 

[soccerballtux]

Athiests I know (perhaps not representative of the whole of them) tend to have an easier time with unanswered questions in their life.

Indeed. Content without God.

 

[HAL9000]

yes, you are free to observe these things, but without faith you are stuck in the "observing" stages.
It takes "faith" to be able to jump to the conclusion that "because we observe logic, we can therefor use it"
The statement in itself is a syllogism, a construct of logic/math.

No faith is not how you reach conclusions.

1 + 1 = 2.

Logic. I don't have faith the answer is two, i have just proved logically that it is two. Remove observation and all you have is logic.

 

[soccerballtux]

Just throwing this out there... in the story, god is actually holding something back: the two trees.

What did he hold back? He told us, if you eat of this, you will die.
We ate it, and now we die.
We weren't built to die.

 

[jackstar7]

yes, you are free to observe these things, but without faith you are stuck in the "observing" stages.
It takes "faith" to be able to jump to the conclusion that "because we observe logic, we can therefor use it"
The statement in itself is a syllogism, a construct of logic/math.

You're saying... logic is unnatural?

If it is natural, then how does it take something to utilize it? Humans utilize things. If we didn't I imagine we'd have been hunted to extinction a long time ago, as animals find us to be delicious.

 

[HAL9000]

Athiests I know (perhaps not representative of the whole of them) tend to have an easier time with unanswered questions in their life.

Not so, atheists have logic. With absolute answers. No faith blurring things.

 

[jackstar7]

What did he hold back? He told us, if you eat of this, you will die.
We ate it, and now we die.
We weren't built to die.

I don't believe you have that correct.

Is it ironic to say the devil is in the details?