Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)

[Atreus21]

And please stop calling something a religion when it is not. Atheism is not a religion. Period.

Just because there are people passionately against religions who are atheists, doesn't make it a religion. I know plenty of people passionate over many things. That doesn't make them religions either. I know someone very passionate about avon products. It's her life, but it's not her religion. Just because someone has made a goal of theirs a life calling, doesn't make it a religion either. People may be devoted to a calling, a career, or any other number of goals, INCLUDING a religion, but again that doesn't make them all religions. Simple math fallacy on your part here.

Because A can be a part of B and C doesn't make B equal to C.

A being devotion
B being Religion
C being anything else

Atheism is not a religion, but atheists are sometimes no less dogmatic than those they rail against.

Reasonable people make the point that there's nothing wrong with religion as long as it largely keeps its hands to itself. Some atheists dogmatically wish to deprive us even this courtesy. The first says, "To each his own." The second, "Those who don't believe as we do are wrong."

That's dogma, and atheists fall for it like eggs from tall chickens. Just like everyone else.

 

[HumblePie]

Atheism is not a religion, but atheists are sometimes no less dogmatic than those they rail against.

Reasonable people make the point that there's nothing wrong with religion as long as it largely keeps its hands to itself. Some atheists dogmatically wish to deprive us even this courtesy. The first says, "To each his own." The second, "Those who don't believe as we do are wrong."

That's dogma, and atheists fall for it like eggs from tall chickens. Just like everyone else.

Being a proponent for something is not the same thing as being dogmatic. Close but no cigar.

Can an atheist be an obnoxious, arrogant prick like anyone else? Yep. Does that make atheism a religion or whatever other labels people are trying to apply to it are? No.

Also, atheism has never "hurt" anyone. There is no book to go by, no preachers to indoctrinate others, and no guiding examples for it. The best analogy I can think of for this is that baldness is not a hair style. It is just a lack of hair. Hair = religion and all that word defines, and bald = nothing.

Some people are very vocal proponents against religion(s) for a sundry of reasons and many of them are not atheists. Just look at all the religion on religion hate going on in the world today. Each claiming the other is the reason for all the world's problems to some degree.

Some just see that all religions have caused harm in the past, will continue to cause harm, and just rather we moved on from that.

 

[brandonb]

I haven't seen a difference.

There may not be a book, but there are books. You may have no preachers, but there is more anti religious hate speak on the internet than the reverse. Guiding examples. I'm sure there aren't. 😉

The reason Atheists don't want to be grouped in as a religion is because the minions don't want to be grouped with religious folks because thats a dirty/bad word.

The anti religion crowd (which is Atheists) is a religion in of itself. Their may not be a higher power that you believe in, call it spaghetti monsters or whatever, but everything else is in place and working full force. I see billboards for atheist clubs and organizations. Maybe it's not named a church, but if it smells like a duck, quacks like a duck, then its a ...

 

[HumblePie]

I haven't seen a difference.

There may not be a book, but there are books. You may have no preachers, but there is more anti religious hate speak on the internet than the reverse. Guiding examples. I'm sure there aren't. 😉

The reason Atheists don't want to be grouped in as a religion is because the minions don't want to be grouped with religious folks because thats a dirty/bad word.

The anti religion crowd (which is Atheists) is a religion in of itself. Their may not be a higher power that you believe in, call it spaghetti monsters or whatever, but everything else is in place and working full force. I see billboards for atheist clubs and organizations. Maybe it's not named a church, but if it smells like a duck, quacks like a duck, then its a ...

Uhh... atheism is the state we are born into. It takes being told something else to believe in something else. I'm an atheist and I attend no atheist meetings. I follow no atheist preachers. I've read no atheist books.

Are there support groups out there for atheists? Yep. Just as there are support groups out there for anyone with a common theme. You telling me that Alcoholics Anonymous is now a religious organization? Are you telling me that forums dedicated to bringing people together over a commonality constitutes a religion by definition? Cause damn, that makes Anand the new All Mighty of all of us then.

Advertisements for something don't either last time I checked. Again, just because an actual religion does a certain action, doesn't make everything that does that same action the same a religion. Otherwise by your definition a football team is a religion.

It has a "preacher' aka the coach.
It has a book, aka the rulebook with sub-books like the playbook and game book.
It is an organization that brings people together.
It has a set goal it is trying to achieve.
It may speak bad about other football teams it is trying to compete against.
It tries to campaign for itself to attract more/better followers
It tries to campaign for more money for equipment through sales and/or through donations.

It does many things that a religion does as well. I wouldn't call a football team a religion nor would any sane person. It can be sponsored by one or have an affiliation with a religion, but the above activity list does NOT make a football team a religion.

 

[Atreus21]

Being a proponent for something is not the same thing as being dogmatic. Close but no cigar.

It is if you dogmatically promote it.

Can an atheist be an obnoxious, arrogant prick like anyone else? Yep. Does that make atheism a religion or whatever other labels people are trying to apply to it are? No.

No, it doesn't. I said already that atheism isn't a religion. It's just that one might think it is by how it's proponents behave (largely no different than those of any other religion).

Also, atheism has never "hurt" anyone. There is no book to go by, no preachers to indoctrinate others, and no guiding examples for it.

That's kind of a misleading argument. Atheism hasn't hurt anyone, but atheists certainly have. Just like Catholics have.

I suppose a clarification would be that you'd say atheists have never harmed in the name of atheism?

Some people are very vocal proponents against religion(s) for a sundry of reasons and many of them are not atheists. Just look at all the religion on religion hate going on in the world today. Each claiming the other is the reason for all the world's problems to some degree.

Some just see that all religions have caused harm in the past, will continue to cause harm, and just rather we moved on from that.

Harm will be be caused in any human endeavor. Religion, and Christianity in particular, has done more, I'd wager, to civilize us than to move us back to barbarism.

 

[HAL9000]

Atheism is a religion, look up the word on dictionary.com.

Here is a hint:

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

Atheism isn't the belief in anything. That's the point it's logic. Not belief.

 

[dud]

Atheism isn't the belief in anything. That's the point it's logic. Not belief.

Coming from you ... there's logic fail.


If you are the spokesperson for atheism ... then all atheists should board the Titanic.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Atheism isn't the belief in anything. That's the point it's logic. Not belief.

Indeed.
Understanding that the probability of something being close to 0 percent is very different from a "belief" which has no basis in empirical evidence. Though it's not the same as "believing in nothing" (pure nihilism), Atheism simply implies, that one does not recognize the possibility of a supernatural being such as a "god" as being realistic.

 

[soccerballtux]

God might exist, but that wouldn't inherently make Christianity correct.

the God expressed in the character of Jesus is the least illogical God one could believe in.

 

[soccerballtux]

I always thought the toothfairy was a selfish bitch. She only left me $1.00 in quarters.

P.S. Your argument could easily be used against the Allah worshiped by fundamentalist Muslims. The 9/11 hijackers believed in the rewards of martyrdom described in their holy book. They were convinced enough to die for their beliefs, and many Americans (yourself included I presume) consider them deluded. You believe their deepest convictions are false. You believe they are worshiping a being that does not exist, that there is no realm with 72 virgins awaiting suicide bombers, and that Islamic fundamentalism is false and harmful to society. You have probably even spoken out against it from time to time. Does this prove that the 72 virgins actually exist?

ALLAH HU AKBAR!!!

Unfortunately, no, I don't. I just think they're very wrong about the character of God. Just like there are Christians who don't actually care about God, there are Muslims who don't actually care about him. The ones that do, erroneously pin their belief in an all powerful "God" to the representation of a God figure whom we refer to as Allah.

As they come to know God more, they will come to find that he's rather different from their understanding of Allah.

 

[dud]

the God expressed in the character of Jesus is the least illogical God one could believe in.

"... least illogical ..."?

I agree. God is great ... and so is his son.

 

[soccerballtux]

If you had friends who told you a magic unicorn told them to do shit, you would probably want help for your schizophrenic friend, no?

People who talk to god = schizophrenic.

Schizophrenia = dangerous for people's own good, as well as the public at large.

If you hate something enough, then it exists?
I hate unicorns!
Ohh shit, look at that, a fvckin unicorn!
not how it works.

Ah, but is it you, or they, that think it's "shit"?
It's certainly not me.
When you KNOW God by your spirit, you definitely do not find his laws to be "shit" but rather very insightful and correct and satisfying.

 

[soccerballtux]

the probability of something being close to 0 percent is very different from a "belief" which has no basis in empirical evidence.

Hey quick question if you would be so kind as to answer, or anyone else that cares to can pipe in as well but I'm also interested in Burn's response:

Assuming the Observed Laws of Physics (AKA Thermodynamics), what's the probability that matter invents itself out of nothing?

 

[soccerballtux]

"... least illogical ..."?

I agree. God is great ... and so is his son.

Yes, least illogical, because when you know him, you can't help but enjoy his character.

Compare that to Allah, who's standing command today is to extract tax by force from unbelievers who won't convert. What ever happened to separation of church from state?

 

[BurnItDwn]

Ah, but is it you, or they, that think it's "shit"?
It's certainly not me.
When you KNOW God by your spirit, you definitely do not find his laws to be "shit" but rather very insightful and correct.

Having been exposed to the internet, you can't possibly be so ignorant as to not know that "shit" has more than one meaning.
You are arguing semantics.
In the context that I used the word "shit", the word "stuff" could also be used.
I didn't want to get into details saying laws or rules or anything like that. The word shit is sufficient to mean anything.

second... what is a spirit?
How do you measure it?
How can you prove it exists?
What are his laws?
Do you mean the 10 commandments? I saw on a movie that there used to be 15, but then 5 of them broke.

Also, a good number of the commandments are covered by the golden rule, which pretty much has no connection to any religion.

Unless, are you suggesting that "morals" come out of religious conviction and blind faith, and that people are not capable of self governing because they are too stupid and ignorant, and therefore, god has to make special rules so that we do not destroy our selves?

Anyhow, I don't believe Christianity is immoral. I do not have any beliefs about it really. However, I do think that most of it is fantasy. And I know that there is no real data to back up any of it's claims.

Keep on talking to your unicorn, tell him to show himself. Some of us will only "believe" what we "know."
PS .. .look up the word "know", in the dictionary, I do not think you means what you think it means.

 

[soccerballtux]

Having been exposed to the internet, you can't possibly be so ignorant as to not know that "shit" has more than one meaning.
You are arguing semantics.
In the context that I used the word "shit", the word "stuff" could also be used.
I didn't want to get into details saying laws or rules or anything like that. The word shit is sufficient to mean anything.

OK if you were saying "stuff" that's fine. My point still stands, if you believe that the reason he's telling you those things is for your good, then why wouldn't you listen to him, or find fault with what he says?

second... what is a spirit?
How do you measure it?
How can you prove it exists?
What are his laws?
Do you mean the 10 commandments? I saw on a movie that there used to be 15, but then 5 of them broke.

Even if God were verifiably real, you would not believe. A man once walked the earth who came to free us from sin in order to save us from the horrible effects of sin. He healed the sick and raised the dead, yet people still didn't believe, because they did not have faith.

Unless, are you suggesting that "morals" come out of religious conviction and blind faith,/QUOTE]
All faith feels blind, at first. God designed it this way for a purpose, so he alone would get the glory. We walk by faith, not by sight, so that no man can boast. Otherwise I could say, no look, see, here is the conclusive proof, I'M right YOU'RE wrong.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Hey quick question if you would be so kind as to answer, or anyone else that cares to can pipe in as well but I'm also interested in Burn's response:

Assuming the Observed Laws of Physics (AKA Thermodynamics), what's the probability that matter invents itself out of nothing?

I would say "out of nothing" is pretty much impossible, nearly 0% probability.
Clearly, one would conclude just from that that there could not possibly be a "god", as you can't make something out of nothing.

 

[dud]

Yes, least illogical, because when you know him, you can't help but enjoy his character.

Compare that to Allah, who's standing command today is to extract tax by force from unbelievers who won't convert. What ever happened to separation of church from state?

Separation of church and state = you are able to worship (or not) whatever God you see fit to without interference from the Government. What some posters (especially Necktard) seem to fail to understand is that a REASONABLE person (not Necktard) should not expect to convert another via a simple posting in an Internet forum.

No one cares what you believe or do not believe. DO NOT expect to EVEN ATTEMPT to try to sway another's beliefs with simple ramblings on an Internet forum.

Necktard, you're a disgrace to the forums and I find it hard not to fart in your general direction. It is my firm belief that you will ultimately be proven to be the troll that we all know you are.

 

[BurnItDwn]

OK if you were saying "stuff" that's fine. My point still stands, if you believe that the reason he's telling you those things is for your good, then why wouldn't you listen to him, or find fault with what he says?

Well, I don't believe a unicorn talks to me.

Are you suggesting that people are too weak for reality, and need a "crutch" such as an imagined unicorn to help them for their own good?

Also, if we are the "lords children" do we really know what's best for us? Children often don't know what's best for them.

my point is that it does not exist, and therefore, it seems rather strange and illogical to have such strong beliefs that many people would initiate violence to defend their positions (since they can't defend their positions using facts or logic, as facts and logic go against their position.)

EDIT>>>>

Anyhow, I don't claim to know everything. And I am not certain that a god does not exist, or that a god can not exist. I just understand that the probability is very close to 0% and try to be guided by logic rather than emotion.

You should believe whatever makes the most sense to you, and I will continue my interpretation of the universe. No offense meant, even though I know some of what I have said may be harsh.

 

[soccerballtux]

as you can't make something out of nothing.

so you agree you have no explanation at all for exactly how the universe as we know it popped into existence from nothing?

 

[soccerballtux]

Separation of church and state = you are able to worship (or not) whatever God you see fit to without interference from the Government. What some posters (especially Necktard) seem to fail to understand is that a REASONABLE person (not Necktard) should not expect to convert another via a simple posting in an Internet forum.

No one cares what you believe or do not believe. DO NOT expect to EVEN ATTEMPT to try to sway another's beliefs with simple ramblings on an Internet forum.

Necktard, you're a disgrace to the forums and I find it hard not to fart in your general direction. It is my firm belief that you will ultimately be proven to be the troll that we all know you are.

Answer not a fool according to his folly...
BUT answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

 

[zsdersw]

so you agree you have no explanation at all for exactly how the universe as we know it popped into existence from nothing?

There are plenty of explanations, only a few of which contain creator gods. The rest are mathematical theories.

 

[soccerballtux]

Are you suggesting that people are too weak for reality, and need a "crutch" such as an imagined unicorn to help them for their own good?

If there is no God, then my answering "yes" to that has absolutely no consequence whatsoever-- it truly does not mater.

Also, if we are the "lords children" do we really know what's best for us? Children often don't know what's best for them.

That's why we listen to what he says, not what we think in our limited understanding is correct. We walk by faith based on what he tells us. The intellectual understanding comes later.

it seems rather strange and illogical to have such strong beliefs that many people would initiate violence to defend their positions (since they can't defend their positions using facts or logic, as facts and logic go against their position.).

Facts and logic are a guide to our relationship with God, but if we make our belief in God derivative of logic, then it's not of faith. And it impossible to please God without faith, for everyone who would draw near to him must first believe that he exists, and that he rewards those who seek him.

edit: also, people doing it by violence, are doing it wrong. Violence requires fear to operate. If you have no fear, you have no reason to act in violence.

We have no reason to fear, if we are God's, for no God who is willing to crucify his own son, the most valuable person to him, for us, is going to tell us to do anything that isn't going to eventually make us supremely happy and content in him.

 

[drebo]

Your Irony is strong.

Do go on. I'd love to see your reasoning.

I gave no opinions and made no attacks. I simply pointed out the idiocy of the assertions in this thread.

By all means, explain yourself.

 

[drebo]

And please stop calling something a religion when it is not. Atheism is not a religion. Period.

Just because there are people passionately against religions who are atheists, doesn't make it a religion. I know plenty of people passionate over many things. That doesn't make them religions either. I know someone very passionate about avon products. It's her life, but it's not her religion. Just because someone has made a goal of theirs a life calling, doesn't make it a religion either. People may be devoted to a calling, a career, or any other number of goals, INCLUDING a religion, but again that doesn't make them all religions. Simple math fallacy on your part here.

Because A can be a part of B and C doesn't make B equal to C.

A being devotion
B being Religion
C being anything else

Atheism absolutely is a religion. It has very devout followers who are just as crazy as the crazies in other religions.

But, of course, you don't want to hear that, so you're going to stick your head in the sand and scream until I go away.