Christianity and Trump

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thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,587
126
Most people who call themselves Christian absolutely HATE everything the Bible says Jesus advocated. Honestly, in the US there are more purely evil individuals who follow Christianity than there are who follow Islam. Both in raw numbers and as a population of their respective demographics.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,420
11,574
136
MIght be interesting to have a formal study with clear definitions. "High I'm a CHristian. Really? "Yeah I think there might be a god but I'm not a muslim so I guess I'm a Christian"

Obviously some uniform and more restrictive definition would be useful.
Who gets to decide what religion other people are?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,420
11,574
136
Well that's a problem isn't it? One has to quantify many intangibles and standardize something on which there's no standard.
Its not really a problem. You just go with what people say they are. Its not up to me to judge if someone meets some arbitrary standards for a religion.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Its not really a problem. You just go with what people say they are. Its not up to me to judge if someone meets some arbitrary standards for a religion.

If you like that's fine. Just remember that ought to hold when people say other things like ideology. Heck I've been called on being both ends of the spectrum :D

Others too. Honestly though this is trivial stuff.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,420
11,574
136
If you like that's fine. Just remember that ought to hold when people say other things like ideology.

Whats the general bar for being a Christian? Its pretty much just believing in and following Jesus isn't it?
Ideologies tend to be more descriptive. For instance to be, say a communist, it involves more than believing in Marx.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
And as stated earlier, again, in the other thread, Christians voted for Trump not because they went looking for him, but because the alternative was Hillary Clinton.

Which is weird, because Hillary actually is a Christian (Wesleyan Methodist) and Trump is not.

You're also misstating the facts. The Christian Right only makes up about 40% of the Christians in the US. They are not all that is Christian in America. Those of us in mainline and liberal Christian churches are getting sick of those Pharisees being the face of Christianity in America. They have been driving people away from Christ for too long.

Also, it's not the evangelicals that are at the forefront of social causes in this country. Those mega churches and their preachers' mansions don't pay for themselves, yaknow. In the meantime, it's the efforts of the Mormons, Catholics, and liberal churches that you are taking credit for.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,011
10,590
136
Fundamentalists are inherently under attack for the extreme interpretation of scripture and politics, EVEN within their own community. Simply being in the minority and widely condemned throughout religious sect's is going to make them naturally insular and hateful. The continuation of their beliefs requires maintaining a firm wall between their believers and everyone else.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
If you like that's fine. Just remember that ought to hold when people say other things like ideology. Heck I've been called on being both ends of the spectrum :D

Others too. Honestly though this is trivial stuff.

Just because you get called a RINO doesn't mean you're some secret muslim libtard.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Uh, prove that, because it sounds like complete BS.

https://www.chausa.org/about/about/facts-statistics

Comprised of more than 600 hospitals and 1,400 long-term care and other health facilities in all 50 states, the Catholic health ministry is the largest group of nonprofit health care providers in the nation. Every day, one in six patients in the U.S. is cared for in a Catholic hospital.



And more complete BS. Prove that too. Prove that Christians were committing widespread persecution of minorities and others prior to some Governmental savior putting a stop to them.

Slavery before the Civil War and Joe Crow laws pasted after, up to restricting voting rights of those minorities still to this present day.
No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish-- Anti Asian laws---Genocides time after time---Belgian African Genocide--Australian Aborigine Genocide--American Indian genocide--- Multiple European kill the other Christian heretic wars--Kill them all and let God sort them pout seems to sum up the Christian ethos.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
That's likely true, but it's like anything scientific. Something might be absolutely correct but I'm always interested in how a determination was made. Fair enough?
Court records, "he was a good Christian boy." as testified to by character witnesses under oath.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
What point do you think I have tried to make in this thread?

I said that the bible is broad and has conflicting things in it. When someone said that Jesus had established a new covenant and thus the old laws were removed. Clearly that cannot follow logically because Jesus states otherwise with the quote I gave. I fail to see what you are talking about, because you have not explained it.

Jesus came as a way to get people back into heaven. Remember this part from my quote...

"until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished"

So unless you think all has been accomplished, then the old laws still stand.

The Israelite's commonly referred to the temple as heaven and earth, which was destroyed a "generation" later exactly as Jesus predicted in 70AD by the Romans.

In order to understand why the Jews did what they did in the Old Testament, and seemingly wiped out other people, you have to understand the covenants they made with God. There is a very, very interesting event that occurs in Exodus 19 that would forge how the Israelite's operated for the next many centuries. Prior to this event, God had forged what is called a "Grant Covenant" between Him and those who believed in Him. This is a covenant style that protects the relationship, and an example of a common grant covenant is, say, your relationship between yourself and your mother or father. Fresh out of slavery though, which was their identity, the Israelite's don't understand this. In Exodus 19 God invites them up to the mountain after the long blast of the ram's horn, and they don't come. They think God is scary, and they basically state, "Just give us rules and laws that we can follow, and we'll do that instead." The story is more complex than that, but that's what happened. And so because of those events, while God wanted to forge a Grant Covenant and "Bless the nations because of you," the Israelite's instead chose to forge a Parity Covenant with God. This is a common covenant that is forged between two people, peoples, or nations where the laws by which they abide by are duplicated on two stones or scrolls, and they each go their separate ways where their "god" enforces both sides. Common examples of a parity covenant are trade agreements, NATO, etc. And when two people come into parity covenant, the enemies of one become the enemies of the other, and this pitted God against the Israelite's enemies. God chose to enter into this covenant because it was the only way to have some sort of relationship with the Israelite's (they didn't understand, and they didn't want to be in grant covenant with God), but it was never God's heart. His heart was always to be in covenant of that of a father/son relationship, and prior to this, His relationship with humans was always just that.

And centuries later, Jesus came to abolish this and re-establish the proper covenant with mankind. In Luke 15, the story of the parable son, this is an example of just that. God's heart was NEVER to be in parity of vassal covenant. It is not God's heart to ever control us, to lay down tons of rules and say, "Obey, or else!". It is always to be in relationship of that of a Father/Son/Daughter.

So if you're ever wondering why Jesus came, or why the Israelite's wiped out babies and seemingly did some pretty rotten things, that's why. When Jesus died on the cross, he made the old covenant obsolete just as he described. A generation later, that "covenant" was completely destroyed. And since then, the "Kingdom of God" has been expanding across the earth, but it is not a physical one, it's a spiritual one.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Whats the general bar for being a Christian? Its pretty much just believing in and following Jesus isn't it?
Ideologies tend to be more descriptive. For instance to be, say a communist, it involves more than believing in Marx.


But what happens when others decide what you are
Slavery before the Civil War and Joe Crow laws pasted after, up to restricting voting rights of those minorities still to this present day.
No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish-- Anti Asian laws---Genocides time after time---Belgian African Genocide--Australian Aborigine Genocide--American Indian genocide--- Multiple European kill the other Christian heretic wars--Kill them all and let God sort them pout seems to sum up the Christian ethos.


That's what's said when others decide what you are in the religion it's not people who ultimately decide.

. Edit- even better, this is a "good" argument for banning international travel to the US entirely. Atheist Stalin and Mao type so they are out. Genocides- well that's pretty much everyone too. Muslims? DEFINITELY out. Maybe Buddhists but I'm sure some of them did something.

EXPAND THE WALL! NONE ARE INNOCENT!
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
The Israelite's commonly referred to the temple as heaven and earth, which was destroyed a "generation" later exactly as Jesus predicted in 70AD by the Romans.

In order to understand why the Jews did what they did in the Old Testament, and seemingly wiped out other people, you have to understand the covenants they made with God. There is a very, very interesting event that occurs in Exodus 19 that would forge how the Israelite's operated for the next many centuries. Prior to this event, God had forged what is called a "Grant Covenant" between Him and those who believed in Him. This is a covenant style that protects the relationship, and an example of a common grant covenant is, say, your relationship between yourself and your mother or father. Fresh out of slavery though, which was their identity, the Israelite's don't understand this. In Exodus 19 God invites them up to the mountain after the long blast of the ram's horn, and they don't come. They think God is scary, and they basically state, "Just give us rules and laws that we can follow, and we'll do that instead." The story is more complex than that, but that's what happened. And so because of those events, while God wanted to forge a Grant Covenant and "Bless the nations because of you," the Israelite's instead chose to forge a Parity Covenant with God. This is a common covenant that is forged between two people, peoples, or nations where the laws by which they abide by are duplicated on two stones or scrolls, and they each go their separate ways where their "god" enforces both sides. Common examples of a parity covenant are trade agreements, NATO, etc. And when two people come into parity covenant, the enemies of one become the enemies of the other, and this pitted God against the Israelite's enemies. God chose to enter into this covenant because it was the only way to have some sort of relationship with the Israelite's (they didn't understand, and they didn't want to be in grant covenant with God), but it was never God's heart. His heart was always to be in covenant of that of a father/son relationship, and prior to this, His relationship with humans was always just that.

And centuries later, Jesus came to abolish this and re-establish the proper covenant with mankind. In Luke 15, the story of the parable son, this is an example of just that. God's heart was NEVER to be in parity of vassal covenant. It is not God's heart to ever control us, to lay down tons of rules and say, "Obey, or else!". It is always to be in relationship of that of a Father/Son/Daughter.

So if you're ever wondering why Jesus came, or why the Israelite's wiped out babies and seemingly did some pretty rotten things, that's why. When Jesus died on the cross, he made the old covenant obsolete just as he described. A generation later, that "covenant" was completely destroyed. And since then, the "Kingdom of God" has been expanding across the earth, but it is not a physical one, it's a spiritual one.

In all of that, I do not see the reason babies had to be killed. You are saying that because the people were enemies of the Jews, that they had to kill every last person, but not explaining why. God gave commandments on what people should do, but then ordered the Jews to destroy every person living on their promised land. Deuteronomy seems to be saying that God commanded them to kill everything because he did not want them to influence the Jews to do bad things. Your argument about a Parity Covenant does not make any sense in that context. Further, god was commanding the Jews to kill people and gives no indication that the Jews were requesting anything. In that context, the Jews are the vassal of God.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,420
11,574
136
But what happens when others decide what you are

Well my point was that you get to decide what religion you are yourself, you might not get allowed to join a specific private "club" (organised church) but no one should be deciding if you're a Christian or not.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
30,199
31,195
136
The basic fact that Trump looks to prosperity gospel preachers as his spiritual leaders says it all.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,221
55,760
136
The basic fact that Trump looks to prosperity gospel preachers as his spiritual leaders says it all.

Is this true? If so that's not so surprising I guess as they are basically peddling the same scam Trump was using for Trump University.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
30,199
31,195
136
Is this true? If so that's not so surprising I guess as they are basically peddling the same scam Trump was using for Trump University.

Yes the pastor from Detroit and Paula White who were both at his inauguration are prosperity preachers. He has referred to White on occasion as his spiritual advisor.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Well my point was that you get to decide what religion you are yourself, you might not get allowed to join a specific private "club" (organised church) but no one should be deciding if you're a Christian or not.

Which is why ISIS members claim to be Muslim and thus are Muslim...
 

kinev

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,647
30
91
CP8CVSzVEAEVaib.jpg:large
 
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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
[
Most people who call themselves Christian absolutely HATE everything the Bible says Jesus advocated. Honestly, in the US there are more purely evil individuals who follow Christianity than there are who follow Islam. Both in raw numbers and as a population of their respective demographics.

If you:
1. Hate immigrants
2. Hate gays
3. Love the flag
4. Love guns
5. Are virulently pro-life
6. Love the death penalty
7. Love the war on drug

The chances of you self-identifying as Christian are about 100%.