ALL Christians can't be intolerant..
why do i say this??
because I am a Christian and I know I am not intolerant... thats how simple it is....
the rest of this thread is pointless, monotonous, and useless... all Christians on this forum are not going to change their views because of somebody's "inspring" response on evolution or something just as all non-Christians on this board are not going to change their views or beliefs because of some christian's "inspiring" response... as much as I'd like to be proven wrong, to show that the information exchanged on this forums is actually used as information, to spark curiosity on subjects that are not fully understood by both sides of this debate, i know that I will not be proven wrong... I feel that each side of this debate/argument only searches for more facts/opinions/statistics to PROVE THE OTHER SIDE WRONG.... not to provide information, not to try and achieve understanding, not to open eyes or ears or hearts.... just simply to prove somebody wrong, because it is human nature... sad but true...
why do i say this??
because I am a Christian and I know I am not intolerant... thats how simple it is....
the rest of this thread is pointless, monotonous, and useless... all Christians on this forum are not going to change their views because of somebody's "inspring" response on evolution or something just as all non-Christians on this board are not going to change their views or beliefs because of some christian's "inspiring" response... as much as I'd like to be proven wrong, to show that the information exchanged on this forums is actually used as information, to spark curiosity on subjects that are not fully understood by both sides of this debate, i know that I will not be proven wrong... I feel that each side of this debate/argument only searches for more facts/opinions/statistics to PROVE THE OTHER SIDE WRONG.... not to provide information, not to try and achieve understanding, not to open eyes or ears or hearts.... just simply to prove somebody wrong, because it is human nature... sad but true...
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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Wonder if we have a case of overly permissive? Since we started trolling again, lets flame this for a bit. Nothing better to do tonight 
Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut
[Q ROTFLMAO!!! OMFG!!! That was hilarious. Superb post, DielsAlder. You shot down every single one his points in 5 lines!!!
How the hell do you figure that? Because he came up with more generalizations?!? Going back to my original point, I'd be happy to dig up a few KKK websites. I'm sure they've got some lovely things to say about african americans. So that must make it true, right? Dude, anyone can pull a website out of their ass to attempt proof of a point of view. Raise my awareness? Of what, your ignorance?
The more i read the more i'm convinced the intolerance of the anti-christians on this board equals or exceeds the intolerance that the most extreme christians have ever shown.
way to go guys.
way to go guys.
Originally posted by: Smaulz
Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut
[Q ROTFLMAO!!! OMFG!!! That was hilarious. Superb post, DielsAlder. You shot down every single one his points in 5 lines!!!
How the hell do you figure that? Because he came up with more generalizations?!? Going back to my original point, I'd be happy to dig up a few KKK websites. I'm sure they've got some lovely things to say about african americans. So that must make it true, right? Dude, anyone can pull a website out of their ass to attempt proof of a point of view. Raise my awareness? Of what, your ignorance?
I simply addressed your questions by offering material evidence to support my assertions. Perhaps you don't believe in evidence. That's okay, many people don't, like the jury on the OJ Simson trial.
These are not generalizations, these are facts. I'm not sure what would be the use of bringing up KKK websites, the KKK is minority of crack-pots that don't influence legislation and have such a compounding effect on American society, as opposed to say Christian groups (hypothetical example
). In your Christian psuedo-logical, after praying to Jesus for help in this thread, you convinced yourself that I was making big generalizations. And when when confounded with relevent examples, instead of thinking of counter arguements, you said that you would be happy to bring up some KKK websites to "prove" your point. How about this? I would like to hear a reasonable argument, if you have any.
The problem with your reasoning is that the OT is required and necessary to the NT. You claim that OT quotes cannot not out of context because the NT is the more emphasized document. Why do Christians selectively take quotes/passages out of the OT and claim them as gospel-- such as Is. 53 (proving Jesus was the Messiah)-- but then they say that an OT passage (that doesn't work in their favor), such as Exodus 23:24, is taken out of context. It is apparent that the OT is like a selective reference, organized Christianity uses it to support and uplift their beloved NT, but when a OT verse that doesn't support them is cited, then somehow that verse suddently becomes the "Old Law" or it doesn't apply because Christ fulfilled the law in the NT. The point: Christians use the OT the way they see fit-- to essentially work their case.
This is a issue of consistancy-- who decides which OT verses are to be "right" and which ones are "the Old ways" that don't apply and are taken out of context. The OT verse is NEVER a problem, taken out of context or not, if the verse neatly enhances and integrates itself into the NT--- I find this very interesting!
You look only at the good and not at the bad.
Thus, if ValsalvaYourHeartOut wants to cite specific OT verses/passages to support his arguments, you do not have the right to call him on context or "thats just the OT old law talking" because your citations are just the same, only they support your case!
Same with the suicide bombers abusing parts of the Quran to see their actions as right, while they go against several of the strict rules of the Islam.
Most people tend to do this: Make up your mind about what you want, and then interpret your religious book or laws to suit that purpose. When you confront them with the errors in that way of thinking they say you shouldn't look at it that way, or that parts aren't correct but the parts they use are.
The NT contains contradictions and errors as well, but people will ignore that if they don't want to hear it.
Exodus 23:24
"Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces."
How can you possibly take that out of context? And what's the big problem here? You're talking about a nation who, like any other nation, is expanding its borders and going to war for more land. We killed the Native Americans, by contrast. Then we turned around and killed each other for the sake of unity. War does that.
So... can you tell me how this is a contradiction?
All of the Old Testament and all of the New Testament testify to one thing: God is Sovereign. There is no contradiction. God will do what God will do. Because God is God, and there is no other.
I would invite skeptics and cynics alike to question whether they are attacking the source of the dilemma -- i.e., whether or not Christianity is true and whether or not groups that form from them are intolerant -- or merely skirting the issue with ramblings about ancient battles in Israel's history. Shoot, they're still fighting. You going to bash Judaism for that? Or Christianity, since Christianity came from Judaism?
Come on... if you're going to invoke logical fallacies and erect completely preposterous house-of-cards lines of argumentation, at least get a little more creative.
"Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces."
How can you possibly take that out of context? And what's the big problem here? You're talking about a nation who, like any other nation, is expanding its borders and going to war for more land. We killed the Native Americans, by contrast. Then we turned around and killed each other for the sake of unity. War does that.
So... can you tell me how this is a contradiction?
All of the Old Testament and all of the New Testament testify to one thing: God is Sovereign. There is no contradiction. God will do what God will do. Because God is God, and there is no other.
I would invite skeptics and cynics alike to question whether they are attacking the source of the dilemma -- i.e., whether or not Christianity is true and whether or not groups that form from them are intolerant -- or merely skirting the issue with ramblings about ancient battles in Israel's history. Shoot, they're still fighting. You going to bash Judaism for that? Or Christianity, since Christianity came from Judaism?
Come on... if you're going to invoke logical fallacies and erect completely preposterous house-of-cards lines of argumentation, at least get a little more creative.
Okay, I apologize. I'm done. It's obvious I'm dealing with a child here. Forget it.
I broke my own rule regarding participating in these ignorant flame-fests. As usual, it ended up completely off topic, and with nothing more than rehashing the same useless, madeup arguments that actually have nothing to do with the original point. I'm done. Have at it.
I broke my own rule regarding participating in these ignorant flame-fests. As usual, it ended up completely off topic, and with nothing more than rehashing the same useless, madeup arguments that actually have nothing to do with the original point. I'm done. Have at it.
There certainly are people claiming Christianity as their faith who excercise intoleramce. This is not what my understanding of the Bible leads me to embrace....
...for whoever is not against us is for us. (MK 9:40, LK 9:50)
Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. (JAS 4:11)
because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! (JAS 2:13)
As I consider the situation, I see that as God points out in the creation story, we make ourselves out to be Gods, and have a proclivity to assume God's role in judgement. It's one of the easiest, and most harmful things for a "Christian" to fall into.
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." (GE 3:22a)
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. (RO 2:1)
...for whoever is not against us is for us. (MK 9:40, LK 9:50)
Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. (JAS 4:11)
because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! (JAS 2:13)
As I consider the situation, I see that as God points out in the creation story, we make ourselves out to be Gods, and have a proclivity to assume God's role in judgement. It's one of the easiest, and most harmful things for a "Christian" to fall into.
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." (GE 3:22a)
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. (RO 2:1)
DielsAlder,
First off, there is no "problem" with my reasoning. There is a problem with your understanding of Christianity. You do make cogent arguments and raise good questions that I think the curious atheist should be asking.
Someone once said that a quote from the Bible tells you more about the quoter, than it does Chrisitanity. That is true if you blantanly hunt out sporadic quotes that fit the argument you're trying to make. It is NOT true if your quote is in line with the teachings of Christ. And these teachings are understood through intense Bible studying of both the OT and NT, not by lazily picking random quotes here and there in either direction.
Here is a website I'd suggest that talks about the need for an Old Testament if you're curious (which you seem to be) It answers many of the questions you raised:
http://www.bible.ca/b-Why-OT-NT.htm
This thread has gotten way off topic and is filled with facetious insulting, as usual when religion is involved. If you want to learn more about Chrisitianity, I'd suggest you either pm me or start another thread with an appropriate title.
First off, there is no "problem" with my reasoning. There is a problem with your understanding of Christianity. You do make cogent arguments and raise good questions that I think the curious atheist should be asking.
Someone once said that a quote from the Bible tells you more about the quoter, than it does Chrisitanity. That is true if you blantanly hunt out sporadic quotes that fit the argument you're trying to make. It is NOT true if your quote is in line with the teachings of Christ. And these teachings are understood through intense Bible studying of both the OT and NT, not by lazily picking random quotes here and there in either direction.
Here is a website I'd suggest that talks about the need for an Old Testament if you're curious (which you seem to be) It answers many of the questions you raised:
http://www.bible.ca/b-Why-OT-NT.htm
This thread has gotten way off topic and is filled with facetious insulting, as usual when religion is involved. If you want to learn more about Chrisitianity, I'd suggest you either pm me or start another thread with an appropriate title.
Your debate skills need some serious work. First of all, when someone specificaly points out problems with your reasoning, it is NOT SUFFICIENT to retort with "first off, there is no problem with my reasoning. There is a problme with your understanding of Christianity." I have read DielsAlder's comments and I am WAITING for you to address them specifically -- not by blowing them off with stupid remarks such as the above.
Essentially what you're saying is that if a quote is in line with the teachings of Christ, then it should be given consideration, and that if a quote is NOT in line with the teachings of Christ, then it should NOT be given consideration.
However, the teachings of Christ are DERIVED from the Bible, which is aggregate of quotes!!!!! Therefore, you have begged the question (Petitio Principii fallacy). YES, there is a serious problem with your reasoning.
You CANNOT argue that one quote is acceptable and the other is not SOLELY because it is not "in line with the teachings of Christ." This is such a textbook case of begging the question -- we should submit this to an intro logic class so the students can laugh at it.
Are you going to keep throwing websites at us? Why don't you just say "Well, if you read 3 volumes of blah blah, and 10 volumes of blah blah, then your questions will be answerd." OBVIOUSLY, a http:// URL is NOT a substitute for your own original arguments and responses....which I have yet to see from you.
It's clear that DielsAlder knows a great deal more about Christianity than you do, as is demonstrated by his understanding of OT/NT, his broad perspective on how the two are typically interpreted by Christians, and how he is able to respond to your posts without resorting to generalizations of hand-waving dismissals. The only thing you've been able to come up with is well, generalizations and hand-waving dismissals.
Previously, I presented quotes from the OT that demonstrate God commanding Christians to be intolerant of non-Christians. You responded by whining that they were out of context. I asked you to explain how putting the quotes IN CONTEXT would CHANGE THEIR MEANING. I have not heard your response...perhaps you forgot to hit send?
DielsAlder presented a few EXCELLENT points as to why the OT is perfectly acceptable, and all you could come up with was a horrific "begging the question" fallacy. Perhaps you might try addressing his points specifically?
One last thing....if you truly are a CalBear, then please change your name....you're disgracing the name of that school. Thanks.
Valsalva
HomeBrewerDude
Lifer
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DielsAder and Valsalva, they dont have a retort to your point, and they will continue to bicker with you until they finally say something like "i'm sorry you dont understand, i'll pray for you."
let it go, people with any reasoning skills have seen them avoid making retorts to your points.
let it go, people with any reasoning skills have seen them avoid making retorts to your points.
Sigh. All I'm looking for is a SINGLE frigging Christian who knows his bible-stuff, understands basic scientific theories (the ones they teach in high school), and is capable of putting logical arguments up. I have yet to meet ONE. ARE THERE ANY LOGICAL CHRISTIANS OUT THERE??????????? HHHEEELLLOOOO??? ...guess not...all busy praying to Jesus.
Valsalva
I won't be responding to anymore facetious comments like this. I have already warned you that your immature talk will be ignored as it should be. If you want to be taken seriously, please refrain from speaking like a high school student.
The teachings of Christ are in the NEW Testament. I am saying that if you slectively pick and choose quotes from the OT where the Laws of Moses were given for ancient Isralites to follow, you will NOT find Christ's message to modern day Christians. You are purposely picking these quotes out of the OT, and claiming that it is what Christ wants. Do you want to know Christ's message? PM me, and I'll be more than happy to give you my email address and share with you. If you're looking for a lazy 1 sentence answer for what Christianity is all about, sorry I can't summarize in 1 sentence what philosophers and seminary schools take years to understand. However I will tell you that nowhere in Christ's message is there room for intolerance and hatred by man for another group of people. If you find me a NT quote to contradict, you're taking it badly out of context like you did with the Matthew quote.
BTW, in regards to your childish comment about a logic class. Funny you ask, because I taught a logic design class in Berkeley (you know the school that you claim I never attended) and got the highest grad student instructor rating in the history of the EECS department. You can pm me for proof.
What are you talking about? I gave you ONE website, didn't realize I kept on throwing websites at you?
Anyway, I have explained numerously why some quotes in the OT are out of line with Jesus' teachings. I gave you a short website to read which summarizes the Christian view on OT because I had a crazy hunch that you won't read the entire New Testament with an open heart and mind to appreciate the full contextual message of Christ. You'd rather pick and choose OT passages because you get a kick out of being facetious.
I guess you forgot how I showed your quote from Matthew was competely taken out of context. Oh yeah, but I used a dirty Christian tactic right?
I already addressed the issue of the OT.
Go Bears!
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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I'm just convinced that neither side is really all that interested in listening to the other. Anyone who tends to get caught up in these debates is so stuck on their own position, and so convinced of their own superiority, that they can't, for one second, honestly consider the other sides' point of view.
Maybe, someday, I'll start a thread and see if I can't get an open, non-accusatory discussion going. That'll be the day.... but it'll happen.
They keep saying "just like anyone else we aren't perfect" in defense of all the Christian BS. So what's the point of being a Christian then? You'd think if God were really whispering stuff into their ears they could be better role models for all us heathens.
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