Chipotle Has Jumped the Shark

[norseamd]

Thank you, very well said. I just see it as a can of worms that didn't need to be opened and now that it is all we can do is pray for what the future holds.

We are not even able to understand what most of the genetic code of any human or plant actually does from the regular organisms how are we gong to understand anything when we start randomly throwing in genetic code and think because we see the main effects of what that code does that there are no smaller or less noticeable side effects at all.

 

[norseamd]

Better stop eating sweet potatoes. They contain trans-genes from bacteria in a process that occurred naturally.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/04/14/1419685112.abstract

And the same problems that can occur with GMO organisms can occur "naturally" in the wild. We use the term naturally and artificial but manmade and nonmanmade are probably more accurate descriptions. The universe is basically nothing but physical occurrences and interactions.

 

[zinfamous]

Now you are ranting and raving.

No I'm not. I answered your question twice.

This is basically the third response you have given me, which loosely translates to: "I neither understand nor care about your simple and clear response to my questions, because I have an unfounded belief fed to me by people that don't understand what they are talking about."

The funny thing, is that you and I both largely agree with the efficacy of GMO. I happen to understand that this is a complicated problem and there are concerns that you casually ignore, because I actually do this in the lab.

Yet here you are, trying to tell someone that does this science, that you know better.

You amuse me.

 

[nextJin]

One thing I woukd wonder is how much of the taste difference comes from what they do to preserve, pack, and ship it?

I know it's subjective that tomatoes out of the garden taste so much better, but I really think they do. It could be due to the type of plant or it could be that they haven't spent the last few days in a truck being sprayed by ripening agents.

That's basically it, if one grew a tomato in some Scott's garden mixed with cow manure and any GMO tomato was grown like it normally is if you picked both at the same time there probably is not a distinct difference in taste.

I'm a pro local farmers market /paleo guy and the only thing I know is true without question is animals that are raised normally on a farm that eat grass tastes a fuck ton better than meat you get from a Grocery store meat section.

I usually buy a half cow and a few chickens from local farmers a year then freeze the meat. If I could afford to buy it daily without freezing I would but it's very expensive.

 

[zinfamous]

No, you don't even understand the methods used, when a farmer creates a "hybrid" it is the result of many years of cross pollination with the same plant for desired traits, with GMO a gene from a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ORGANISM is "spliced" into the plant's seeds for the desired trait. We've been eating "hybrids" for many thousands of years, GMO's for about 15.

just over twenty years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavr_Savr

also, no one should be eating this bland bastard representation of a tomato (yet all of us are). Fucker tastes horrible.

 

[Brainonska511]

just over twenty years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavr_Savr

also, no one should be eating this bland bastard representation of a tomato (yet all of us are). Fucker tastes horrible.

None of us are eating Flavr Savr tomatoes, because they were removed from the market nearly 20 years ago.

 

[xBiffx]

No I'm not. I answered your question twice.

This is basically the third response you have given me, which loosely translates to: "I neither understand nor care about your simple and clear response to my questions, because I have an unfounded belief fed to me by people that don't understand what they are talking about."

The funny thing, is that you and I both largely agree with the efficacy of GMO. I happen to understand that this is a complicated problem and there are concerns that you casually ignore, because I actually do this in the lab.

Yet here you are, trying to tell someone that does this science, that you know better.

You amuse me.

I am not trying to tell anyone that I know better. I'm trying to understand how simply stating Dutch Elm disease is an answer. It's fine if you don't want to answer that beside "because it is" but that's not my problem.

By the way, I actually do this in a lab too, with the materials in question here.

 

[zinfamous]

That's basically it, if one grew a tomato in some Scott's garden mixed with cow manure and any GMO tomato was grown like it normally is if you picked both at the same time there probably is not a distinct difference in taste.

I'm a pro local farmers market /paleo guy and the only thing I know is true without question is animals that are raised normally on a farm that eat grass tastes a fuck ton better than meat you get from a Grocery store meat section.

I usually buy a half cow and a few chickens from local farmers a year then freeze the meat. If I could afford to buy it daily without freezing I would but it's very expensive.

I'm not really a fan of grassfed beef, and top chefs around the world tend to agree--corn fed makes better tasting food. Pretty simple calculation: corn = more fat. fat = taste.

I'm not against grass-fed, naturally grazing animals (especially poultry, because they eat tons of grubs and shit, and that meat does taste better), and even some fantasy world where we magically go back to only eating naturally-grazing meat (face it: impossible with the world protein requirement), but the argument that it tastes better doesn't hold. Yes, taste tends to be subjective, but this is why we look at trends and opinions that tend to hold more water than the average joe's.

 

[norseamd]

No I'm not. I answered your question twice.

This is basically the third response you have given me, which loosely translates to: "I neither understand nor care about your simple and clear response to my questions, because I have an unfounded belief fed to me by people that don't understand what they are talking about."

The funny thing, is that you and I both largely agree with the efficacy of GMO. I happen to understand that this is a complicated problem and there are concerns that you casually ignore, because I actually do this in the lab.

Yet here you are, trying to tell someone that does this science, that you know better.

You amuse me.

So since you deal with biological science every day do my comments above have some or partial validity or any relativity?

 

[zinfamous]

None of us are eating Flavr Savr tomatoes, because they were removed from the market nearly 20 years ago.

oh fuck, really? then why do all of the standard "tomato" look like those bastards, and taste like nothing?

I am not trying to tell anyone that I know better. I'm trying to understand how simply stating Dutch Elm disease is an answer. It's fine if you don't want to answer that beside "because it is" but that's not my problem.

By the way, I actually do this in a lab too, with the materials in question here.

your second statement is hard to believe, because you would already understand these issues, and wouldn't be asking the other question.

I didn't have to simply state it--the information is there. Again, if you have to ask something so basic as "why is genetic diversity important"? and the Dutch Elm example doesn't easily satisfy you, then you weren't exposed to this basic example in intro to Biology class (seriously, this is 8th grade stuff), and you should probably never be in a position to be "working with this material in a lab."
--You should do what I didn't do (regarding the Flavr Savr link), and actually read the wiki article I linked.

Not sure what you do in the "lab," but you aren't designing transgenes; because based on your comments, a plasmid would be just as familiar to you as a clitoris to a horny middle school boy.

 

[norseamd]

I'm not really a fan of grassfed beef, and top chefs around the world tend to agree--corn fed makes better tasting food. Pretty simple calculation: corn = more fat. fat = taste.

NEIN!

Give me well done bison any and every day of the week for the whole year!

 

[Brainonska511]

oh fuck, really? then why do all of the standard "tomato" look like those bastards, and taste like nothing?

Because that's what consumers "wanted". They wanted stuff year-round and purchased based on appearance, so seed producers bred tomatoes that look nice and ship well, but as a side result, taste rather flavorless.

There are academic labs looking to bring heartier tomatoes to the public through "natural" breeding methods: http://hos.ufl.edu/kleeweb/newcultivars.html (you can even get your hands on some seeds with a small donation). But as you may know, breeding takes a lot of time.

If people weren't so scared of GMOs, ideally, we'd try to see if there was a specific gene(s) that provided the good transit/good color properties and put them into varieties that taste good.

And there are other great projects coming out of GMO technology - you have people trying to fight citrus greening with trees that have a few spinach genes that make the trees resistant to the bacterial infection plaguing citrus crops in Florida. Of course, the work is still in the early stages and the orange juice industry is rather hesitant about it, since people have linked GMO with something bad and evil in many people's minds.

And if the regulatory barriers weren't so ridiculous high compared with "traditional" chemical/radiation mutagenesis breeding, you could see more consumer-oriented GMOs (instead of producer-oriented, like pest-resistance traits) pop up instead of simply being shelved at academic labs.

 

[zinfamous]

So since you deal with biological science every day do my comments above have some or partial validity or any relativity?

some of it, sure. I confess--I tend to have problems understanding some of your posts here, but I realize that English is not your first language?

This, particularly, you are getting at why this is a complicated issue...

Hence the concerns about the genetics overall resulting from editing organisms. The specific genetic code inserted into any organisms does not exist in a vacuum but in interacting with all the rest of the organism genetics. How genetics express themselves and the resulting phenotypes or results is based off how all the genetic code plus all nongenetic influences like epigenetics interact with all the rest of the genetics and nongenetics of the particular organism and even the biological and nonbiological constructs and dynamics of the environment.

even though some of the wording doesn't make sense. genetics and nongenetics...You mean to say coding and noncoding/exons and introns.

This is part of epigenetics (that much of the noncoding DNA in an organism's genome can have very serious influence on the exons will code for a protein.) Also, just as concerning with GMO, is that old "one gene/one protein" theory is long and dead.

While we can determine the role of a specific gene rather effectively (though not all genes at this point), it doesn't mean that is the only role--and it also doesn't mean that this single coding gene only ever produces the one protein that we know. That can be problematic.

 

[zinfamous]

NEIN!

Give me well done bison any and every day of the week for the whole year!

fat = taste is rather quantifiable metric. Not sure what else I can tell you there.

 

[norseamd]

even though some of the wording doesn't make sense. genetics and nongenetics...You mean to say coding and noncoding/exons and introns.

Basically to me genetics means biological material but it seems that I have often seen it used to mean DNA only. At least as far as I am able to understand how they use the word. So I was using genetics in this sense to describe pure traditional DNA codes or genes and such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Mendelian_inheritance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

 

[touchstone]

A family member of mine with a doctorate in bio-chem from Purdue claims GMOs are safe and I am going to take his word for it. You guys can believe whom you like.

 

[norseamd]

fat = taste is rather quantifiable metric. Not sure what else I can tell you there.

Not sure if I am getting this 100% correct but taste = umami or savoryness!

 

[xBiffx]

your second statement is hard to believe, because you would already understand these issues, and wouldn't be asking the other question.

I didn't have to simply state it--the information is there. Again, if you have to ask something so basic as "why is genetic diversity important"? and the Dutch Elm example doesn't easily satisfy you, then you weren't exposed to this basic example in intro to Biology class (seriously, this is 8th grade stuff), and you should probably never be in a position to be "working with this material in a lab."
--You should do what I didn't do (regarding the Flavr Savr link), and actually read the wiki article I linked.

Not sure what you do in the "lab," but you aren't designing transgenes; because based on your comments, a plasmid would be just as familiar to you as a clitoris to a horny middle school boy.

And I'm the one being accused to telling someone I know better. LOL. Too funny.

I never said I was designing transgenes. I said I work with the materials in question. I know exactly what a plasmid is. I know exactly how to makes changes to one. Neither has any bearing on your previous statements.

Never did I ask why genetic diversity is important so stop with that strawman. I asked you to explain how stating Dutch Elm disease has anything to do with genetic diversity. Again, a disease that infects an entire species of plant doesn't say anything about genetic diversity.

But go on thinking you are superior and know more. I don't really care. I really don't need to be insulted by someone who presumes to know what I know.

 

[norseamd]

A family member of mine with a doctorate in bio-chem from Purdue claims GMOs are safe and I am going to take his word for it. You guys can believe whom you like.

Basically from what I understand this is a very complex issue and not something that can be decided as a yes or no problem.

It has nothing to do with "GMO" but the resulting product.

 

[nextJin]

I'm not really a fan of grassfed beef, and top chefs around the world tend to agree--corn fed makes better tasting food. Pretty simple calculation: corn = more fat. fat = taste.

I'm not against grass-fed, naturally grazing animals (especially poultry, because they eat tons of grubs and shit, and that meat does taste better), and even some fantasy world where we magically go back to only eating naturally-grazing meat (face it: impossible with the world protein requirement), but the argument that it tastes better doesn't hold. Yes, taste tends to be subjective, but this is why we look at trends and opinions that tend to hold more water than the average joe's.

That's like saying adding a ton of salt/grease = better taste. It's subjective to be sure, but if you are specifically arguing the "meat" where you get a steak of each variety cook exactly the same and eat only a meaty portion of said steaks it's not really in question imo.

A grass fed steak has less marbling but it's color is naturally darker and doesn't have coloring and all types of other things which takes away from the natural flavors.

Also anyone who uses steak sauce is insane;

Mushrooms, onions, red wine, beef stock and a little bacon reduced is all one will ever need!

Edit: and to be honest, it's now to a point where eating a natural piece of meat is an acquired taste. It's so far out of the norm now that people are used to bland meats where you have to smother it in ketchup, A1, or any number of things to make it taste good.

They try a natural piece of beef and are not used to the taste, a friend of mine was over for dinner and asked for the A1 and I looked at him like he was crazy. He tried it my way and loved it enough to make the switch.

 

[Darwin333]

Um, no, the plague didn't kill everyone because not everyone was exposed to it. Even if they had immunity, that's a reason to control genetics, specifically for disease control. Funny, that's exactly what GMO's do.

So the sons, daughters, husbands, wives and even gravediggers for the poor bastards inflected with the plague simply weren't exposed to it? Little pockets of humanity completely cut off from the ones that did have the plague were all that survived? If everyone exposed to the plague died Europe would have been a wasteland and the west probably wouldn't exist as it does today.

 

[norseamd]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequences_of_the_Black_Death