China's air is too polluted for olympics ?

[Eeezee]

Oh yes, the big Chinese cities have horrible air quality. They use tons of coal, oil, gas, etc.

Praxis1452, free trade DOES mean that companies can pollute wherever they like. In a true free trade society, if a company owns the land (next to your house for instance) they can dump whatever they want there, even if it ruins the groundwater or causes your plants to die by seeping into the soil. "Free trade" is a phrase synonymous with "lawless" but only applied to business practices. It's when you create laws requiring businesses to uphold certain standards that people start muttering about how we need a free trade society. Notice the trend?

Their government isn't "allowing" the pollution, it's encouraging it. Also, the pollution has nothing to do with being communist or not - America has allowed similar levels of pollution in the past before we started doing anything about it. You can read about it in any history book.

 

[sadguy]

Originally posted by: uhohs

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
chinas a took f*cked up country for the olympics period.

genocide olympics pretty much sums it up. never mind the pollution

Nice thinly veiled racism.

This is why I don't venture into P&N. I enjoy discussing those subjects but not when there are so many bigots in denial.

how does 0roo0roo's comment equate to racism?
and if i remember correctly, he's whitewashed

.

fixed

 

[Eeezee]

nm

 

[Modelworks]

If the athletes have to run the race with mask or have to have oxygen after the race, thats really really going to be sad.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Flammable
you cant see the blue sky

The sky is blue???

 

[ohmide]

I'm living over there right now and without a doubt it is the worst air ever

 

[SagaLore]

http://www.impactlab.com/modul...&file=article&sid=8462

 

[CTrain]

I was in Beijing for 5 months and it is that bad.
The traffic is horrible too.
I think the IOC had to award the Olympic to China because it is an up and coming economic power.
We will see how they deal with these 2 issues once the Olympic gets near.

 

[Indolent]

I don't understand how they could possibly be allowed to host the olympics?!?

 

[everman]

That's just really sad, but maybe it's a good thing the Olympics is being held there since it's effectively forcing the Chinese to address their pollution problem, and it's putting the problem in the world spotlight.
I feel bad for the olympians though.

 

[Imdmn04]

The British needs to stop being vaginas, 10+ million people lives in Beijing everyday and they are just fine. 20 Days aint shit.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Yeah China/Taiwan is bad bad air quality. They don't have anything like EPA or environmental regulations like we do - I suppose they have some but nowhere near as strict. Why do you think stuff is cheaper for us to have produced over there?

Per capita income of a few thousand dollars a year is one reason

 

[Capt Caveman]

Never been to China but have spent time in Mexico City. The air made me sick and the pollution is so bad that cars are only allowed to drive on odd or even days.

 

[JC86]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
chinas a took f*cked up country for the olympics period.

genocide olympics pretty much sums it up. never mind the pollution

Nice thinly veiled racism.

This is why I don't venture into P&N. I enjoy discussing those subjects but not when there are so many bigots in denial.

Couldn't agree more with mwmorph, at least China is trying to do something about it for the Olympics. You can't fault their effort, they're a developing country that has its share of environmental problems but they'll figure it out. It's just a matter of time. For all the anti-China rants out there, we have no one to blame but ourselves and our incessant demand for cheaper products as consumers.

Anecdotally speaking, I was in Beijing for about two weeks during the summer in 2005 and while that gray haze the report was describing is definitely there, it's not as bad as the reports are making it out to be. For athletes who are acclimated to a certain environment, maybe it will have some impact but generally speaking, I'd imagine it'd be a negligible difference than what we live with everyday.

 

[Juno]

move the olympics to south korea.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: JC86

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
chinas a took f*cked up country for the olympics period.

genocide olympics pretty much sums it up. never mind the pollution

Nice thinly veiled racism.

This is why I don't venture into P&N. I enjoy discussing those subjects but not when there are so many bigots in denial.

Couldn't agree more with 0roo0roo, at least China is trying to do something about it for the Olympics. You can't fault their effort, they're a developing country that has its share of environmental problems but they'll figure it out. It's just a matter of time. For all the anti-China rants out there, we have no one to blame but ourselves and our incessant demand for cheaper products as consumers.

Anecdotally speaking, I was in Beijing for about two weeks during the summer in 2005 and while that gray haze the report was describing is definitely there, it's not as bad as the reports are making it out to be. For athletes who are acclimated to a certain environment, maybe it will have some impact but generally speaking, I'd imagine it'd be a negligible difference than what we live with everyday.

The problem is that after the Olympics are over, the air condition will go back to dangerous levels.

 

[dsfunk]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Never been to China but have spent time in Mexico City. The air made me sick and the pollution is so bad that cars are only allowed to drive on odd or even days.

I was in Beijing last August and they were having a test the next week where they were doing the odd/even days. Or it was a four day thing. Odd ending license plates can drive sunday and tuesday, even on monday and wednesday. Something like that.

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: Juno
move the olympics to south korea.

Nah... move it back to Atlanta! I'll bet that they can reuse some of the old buildings from the last Olympics they had there!

 

[CTrain]

Originally posted by: JC86

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
chinas a took f*cked up country for the olympics period.

genocide olympics pretty much sums it up. never mind the pollution

Nice thinly veiled racism.

This is why I don't venture into P&N. I enjoy discussing those subjects but not when there are so many bigots in denial.

Couldn't agree more with mwmorph, at least China is trying to do something about it for the Olympics. You can't fault their effort, they're a developing country that has its share of environmental problems but they'll figure it out. It's just a matter of time. For all the anti-China rants out there, we have no one to blame but ourselves and our incessant demand for cheaper products as consumers.

Anecdotally speaking, I was in Beijing for about two weeks during the summer in 2005 and while that gray haze the report was describing is definitely there, it's not as bad as the reports are making it out to be. For athletes who are acclimated to a certain environment, maybe it will have some impact but generally speaking, I'd imagine it'd be a negligible difference than what we live with everyday.

Summer 2005 ??
How many plants have been popping up in China over the last 2 years.
Everything have been "made in China" the last couple of years.
I was just there, it is that bad.
Just everyday living is bad so imagine what these world class athletes will have to go through.

 

[SampSon]

It's never pretty when industrialization kicks into high gear.

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
-10,000 points for being unable to make a point without using the worn-out Nazi reference. You must be young.

You're not even flirting with 40 yet. Pot to kettle.

Originally posted by: mwmorph
It's the same with any group with zealous interests, everyone talks about wanting "equality", but only if that means they're more equal, or better off than others.

It's pretty much how the Nazis came into being.
There was an observed discrepancy, they got pissed off at a situation, wanted to be equal and got caught up in it until they ended up on top.

We have a term for this in Social Psychology, it's called the "Social Identity Theory" (Tajfel and Turner). In 1970, Tajfel did a study with British teenagers and showed that people will always favor their group over another no matter how arbitrary or meaningless a group is (n this case, it was based on whether they overestimated or underestimated when counting flashing dots).

In society, most of us have learned to go past this egocentric behavior. (once young childhood passes, most people in western civilization move away from egocentric thought in varying degrees) Apparently, all of those that failed to adhere to the usual psychological models congregated on the internet.

Example: See the decline of western civilization by reading youtube comments or P&N.[/i]

So what you're saying is that you know better than others? You are including yourself in some elitest group that knows better, separating yourself from thoes whom you deem do not? You should include yourself in a case study for social psychology. You are coming off as being a new class of bigot, the intellectual bigot. Try as hard as you want, you're no better than thoes you criticize.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: SampSon
It's never pretty when industrialization kicks into high gear.

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
-10,000 points for being unable to make a point without using the worn-out Nazi reference. You must be young.

You're not even flirting with 40 yet. Pot to kettle.

Originally posted by: mwmorph
It's the same with any group with zealous interests, everyone talks about wanting "equality", but only if that means they're more equal, or better off than others.

It's pretty much how the Nazis came into being.
There was an observed discrepancy, they got pissed off at a situation, wanted to be equal and got caught up in it until they ended up on top.

We have a term for this in Social Psychology, it's called the "Social Identity Theory" (Tajfel and Turner). In 1970, Tajfel did a study with British teenagers and showed that people will always favor their group over another no matter how arbitrary or meaningless a group is (n this case, it was based on whether they overestimated or underestimated when counting flashing dots).

In society, most of us have learned to go past this egocentric behavior. (once young childhood passes, most people in western civilization move away from egocentric thought in varying degrees) Apparently, all of those that failed to adhere to the usual psychological models congregated on the internet.

Example: See the decline of western civilization by reading youtube comments or P&N.[/i]

So what you're saying is that you know better than others? You are including yourself in some elitest group that knows better, separating yourself from thoes whom you deem do not? You should include yourself in a case study for social psychology. You are coming off as being a new class of bigot, the intellectual bigot. Try as hard as you want, you're no better than thoes you criticize.

If by know better you mean I'm aware I'm subconsciously biased and willing to admit it, yes. I'm not saying i'm faultless, just that I understand people have biases and I take that into account when formulating a opinion. Does that mean i'm unbiased? Definitely not even close, but I'd like to think since I ask myself multiple times wile coming up with a thought whether it's as objective as I can make it, that it helps, even if just a little.

I freely admit I'm a toyota fanboy, i usually go for the underdog in situation, I do have a personal interest in China and the United States, I identify with moderate white caucasians and since I study social psych, I believe I can give a better definition on social psychological behaviors than someone not in the field.

I never forced you to have to take my opinion, I am not screaming to make my voice heard, but presenting my thoughts for debate, preferably with verifiable facts and figures in a logical manner.

 

[SampSon]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
If by know better you mean I'm aware I'm subconsciously biased and willing to admit it, yes.

Ok so to cut through the pseudo intellectual collegate mumbo-jumbo, you are saying "I, mwmorph, am a bigot"?

 

[UNCjigga]

Originally posted by: Imdmn04
The British needs to stop being vaginas, 10+ million people lives in Beijing everyday and they are just fine. 20 Days aint shit.

Except the 10+ million living in Beijing AREN'T PARTICIPATING IN AN ATHLETIC COMPETITION idiot! Any legal performance advantage should be used--if the British feel that masks will keep their athletes' lungs healthy and help them win, so be it. I really think the Chinese athletes might be at an advantage, since they might've had time to train in Beijing and condition their bodies to the pollution a little.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: mwmorph
If by know better you mean I'm aware I'm subconsciously biased and willing to admit it, yes.

Ok so to cut through the pseudo intellectual collegate mumbo-jumbo, you are saying "I, mwmorph, am a bigot"?

I'm sorry if you think it's intellectual mumbo jumbo, it actually is information that is as factual as I could strive for that convey a point.

As for bigot, id depends on how you define it,

big·ot (big'?t)
n.
a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/dictionary/bigot

Then I'd like to say no. I'm rather more apathetic. I just don't care about people. Want to get married to another man? Ehh, fine. Want to condemn those homosexual couples to hell? It's your thing, not mine. I just want to know your reasoning behind it as long as it's logically sound.

I'm more than willing to change my views for the right supporting arguments.

Now, I'd like to ask, what's your point?

Would you like me to argue ideas without using "intellectual collegiate mumbo-jumbo"? I personally don't think it's possible to explore the discussion without bringing up these ideas and topics.

For example I believe Social Identity Theory explains why 0roo0roo wold be so against the Chinese.

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
The problem is that after the Olympics are over, the air condition will go back to dangerous levels.

Probably, in fact undoubtedly, but there will be minor improvements nevertheless. The billions spent on the subway are going to have to be justified.

I visited China from 12/18/2007 to 1/10/2008

In Hong Kong 2 months ago. riding from 1 side to the other cost about 29HKD(Hong Kong Dollar).
Now 1 HKD is about 1 RMB(Ren Ming Bi, Yuan)

In Beijing, getting anywhere in the city cost 2RMB, making the subways much more popular recently since the price drop according to relatives living in the city which probably(hopefully?) will carry over even after the Olympics are done with.

 

[Praxis1452]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: mwmorph


Or that the example is effective and fits.

But hey, thanks for the personal attacks and lack of any real contribution to this discussion.

Every internet kiddie seems to think that a Nazi reference is effective and fits. It's so played out that it's totally ineffective and cliched.

Thank you for your opinion, now onto more productive discussion,

Originally posted by: Praxis1452

Originally posted by: techs
Get used to it. The wackos who cry "free trade" and "competition" won't be happy until we are just like China.

In P&N I posted how Olympic teams can't serve the meat found in China because it has so much steroids it would cause the athletes to test positive. The US team is importing it from Tyson foods in the US.

To your first part, free trade and competition does not mean that companies can pollute wherever they like. If you live next to the plant, why should you have to have your property polluted by their waste? Property rights are important in forcing companies to maintain a clean and safe enviroment.

edit: In fact it's the idea of communism that allows for this pollution. The government does things "for the greater good" thereby ignoring the negative side effects. People living next to these plants and polluted areas would probably do something if they could.

Stop with your bullshit.

Would you like to back that up?

I'm amazed at this whole "communist" buzzword thrown around all the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

Communism is a socioeconomic structure that promotes the establishment of a classless, stateless society based on common ownership of the means of production.

:

China has a currency based on the gold possibly(probably imho) pegged to the US dollar depending on whom you ask, china has property ownership and taxes and private businesses. It's been that way since oh about... 10,000B.C., except for one period of a few years during Mao's Great Leap Forward.

As for environmental issues, China has advanced more in 30 years than he first 200 or so years of the European Industrial revolution.

Take a young government, no experience in what an advanced, modern economy is like, a large population and create on a unprecedented scale and speed an industrial base rivaling anything else the world has to offer and see how it turned out.

Western civilization had a gentler progress curve and the benefit of experience. Sure France or Britain or America looks good now, but go back to the beginning of their respective industrial revolutions and you will see many of the same things then as you see in china now. Time will work things out for the better eventually.

I don't believe you can blame china, It's early in it's cycle and things tend to get much better as time progresses, it's doing well considering how much more quickly it's developed when compared to say America of the early 1900s, when we were undergoing our very own economic revolution.

History tends to repeat itself.

It's easier to see when you no longer compare China to America circa 2008 but rather civilizations in it's category of development.

Politically, 50-60 years after our revolution we still had slavery, had quite a few massacres of native Americans and government dissenters. Hell in WWII we sent a bunch of Japanese and possibly Japanese to basically detainment camps by executive order.In 1970 we shot up students at Kent State for protesting the Vietnam War's expansion into Cambodia.

Give it time, countries and governments need time to grow and mature, learn from experience.

Ok, my mistake, I should've caught it[and explained more]. I tend to use communism as a dual meaning. Sometimes as what it is officially defined as, and sometimes as what it has evolved to mean today by the actions of certain countries and what they claim to be.

Still, my argument was valid.