China . . .

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
I've contended for quite some time that the way we do business with China is not in the best interest of this country.
Back in the 'Good-Old-Days' (Under Clinton) Several of our Buisness Corporations McDonnell Douglas in particular
(Now being an albatross for McBoeing) was fined millions for selling some obsolete machining equipment to China,
which after setting it up and displaying it where it was allowed & supposed to be, then moved it to a different location
and proceded to begin using it to make weapons systems. Bait & switch, but we got burned, they won't send it back.

Last year and completed this year was the allowance of China to assume control of a computer manufacturing entity
that IBM wanted to divest themselves of.
One of their appliance manufacturers is trying (off & on again) to take over Maytag -
(wonder if it's the same company that executed over 100 of their workers about
10 years ago for not meeting the Governments production standards and schedule)
and they are also trying to buy one of our American owned Oil Companies.

We're setting ourselves up for the kill - for cheap 'Now' financing & quick profit.
Dumb.

Military Threat

<CLIP>
China has long-term ambitions to extend its power across the Asian continent and its leaders in the future "may be tempted to resort to force or coercion more quickly to press diplomatic advantage, advance security interests or resolve disputes," the Pentagon told Congress on Tuesday.

In a report that could stoke growing anti-Beijing sentiment in Congress, the Pentagon declared that China was looking beyond its long-standing confrontation with Taiwan and that its rapid arms buildup was increasingly aimed at expanding its military power in the region. The Pentagon assessment of China's military, required annually by Congress, goes far beyond previous reports in its attempts to discern the strategy behind China's arms buildup.

The Pentagon report was due to Congress in March, and many have speculated that the long delay was the result of fights within the Bush administration over the tone of the report. The State Department is preparing to open a new diplomatic front with China aimed at deeper engagement with the world's most-populous nation and building trust between the two powers.

Pentagon officials insist that the report has been carefully vetted by the State Department and the National Security Council and that its conclusions are endorsed by the entire U.S. government.

The more hawkish report comes at a time the Defense Department is conducting a top-to-bottom review of its own arsenal. The high-level assessment ? known as the Quadrennial Defense Review ? will serve as the blueprint for military budgets for the next four years, and some in the Defense Department point out that a growing threat from China helps the Pentagon justify multibillion-dollar weapons that would be ill-suited for fighting amorphous terrorist networks.

For instance, Air Force officials, fighting vigorously to preserve the budget for the Stealth F-22 fighter, have put emphasis this year on China's improved air defenses and the F-22's abilities to elude radar.

"You look at the Air Force's briefings, and they are all China, China, China," said a senior defense official working on the Quadrennial Defense Review.


Economic Threat

<CLIP>
Maj. Gen. Zhu Chenghu of the Chinese People's Liberation Army caused quite a stir last week when he threatened to nuke "hundreds" of American cities if the U.S. dared to interfere with a Chinese attempt to conquer Taiwan.

This saber-rattling comes while China is building a lot of sabers. Although its defense budget, estimated to be as much as $90 billion, remains a fraction of the United States', it is enough to make China the world's third-biggest weapons buyer (behind Russia) and the biggest in Asia. Moreover, China's spending has been increasing rapidly, and it is investing in the kind of systems ? especially missiles and submarines ? needed to challenge U.S. naval power in the Pacific.

The Pentagon on Tuesday released a study of Chinese military capabilities. In a preview, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told a Singapore audience last month that China's arms buildup was an "area of concern." It should be. But we shouldn't get overly fixated on such traditional indices of military power as ships and bombs ? not even atomic bombs. Chinese strategists, in the best tradition of Sun Tzu, are working on craftier schemes to topple the American hegemon.

In 1998, an official People's Liberation Army publishing house brought out a treatise called "Unrestricted Warfare," written by two senior army colonels, Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui. This book, which is available in English translation, is well known to the U.S. national security establishment but remains practically unheard of among the general public.

"Unrestricted Warfare" recognizes that it is practically impossible to challenge the U.S. on its own terms. No one else can afford to build mega-expensive weapons systems like the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which will cost more than $200 billion to develop. "The way to extricate oneself from this predicament," the authors write, "is to develop a different approach."

Their different approaches include financial warfare (subverting banking systems and stock markets), drug warfare (attacking the fabric of society by flooding it with illicit drugs), psychological and media warfare (manipulating perceptions to break down enemy will), international law warfare (blocking enemy actions using multinational organizations), resource warfare (seizing control of vital natural resources), even ecological warfare (creating man-made earthquakes or other natural disasters).

Cols. Qiao and Wang write approvingly of Al Qaeda, Colombian drug lords and computer hackers who operate outside the "bandwidths understood by the American military." They envision a scenario in which a "network attack against the enemy" ? clearly a red, white and blue enemy ? would be carried out "so that the civilian electricity network, traffic dispatching network, financial transaction network, telephone communications network and mass media network are completely paralyzed," leading to "social panic, street riots and a political crisis." Only then would conventional military force be deployed "until the enemy is forced to sign a dishonorable peace treaty."

This isn't just loose talk. There are signs of this strategy being implemented. The anti-Japanese riots that swept China in April? That would be psychological warfare against a major Asian rival. The stage-managed protests in 1999, after the U.S. accidentally bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, fall into the same category.

The bid by the state-owned China National Offshore Oil Co., to acquire Unocal? Resource warfare. Attempts by China's spy apparatus to infiltrate U.S. high-tech firms and defense contractors? Technological warfare. China siding against the U.S. in the U.N. Security Council over the invasion of Iraq? International law warfare. Gen. Zhu's threat to nuke the U.S.? Media warfare.



 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Hey, their economy is growing at a 9.5% clip. They must be doing something right. Perhaps we should work to imitate them? ;)


BTW, I thought I read yesterday that Whirlpool was now going to buy Maytag.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Originally posted by: conjur

BTW, I thought I read yesterday that Whirlpool was now going to buy Maytag.

Maybe, maybe not - who knows. They might just let Whirlpool buy Maytag, then buy that merged mess up later.

Haier

 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: conjur
Hey, their economy is growing at a 9.5% clip. They must be doing something right. Perhaps we should work to imitate them? ;)


BTW, I thought I read yesterday that Whirlpool was now going to buy Maytag.

Chinese owned Haier has dropped out. Whirlpool and another (forgot) are now the two bidding for Maytag.

China is a huge threat...whether or not you choose to see it.
 

TartuAngel

Junior Member
Jul 20, 2005
4
0
0
i noticed china struggles with everyone last time. Lately messed with Japan, now threaten USA, what next?
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
0
0
China faces their own issues first.

At a 9.5% growth rate, it is an almost guarantee that they will face a massive economic collapse sooner rather than later. When this occurs, it will be a major event. Even more importantly, the people may decide that the time has come to remove the shackles of Communism. A weak government after a collapse could easily lead to a large civil war.

In the long run, they are a threat, but not quite in the same was as the old USSR was. China is a trading partner with the West, and like it or not, we are as important to them as they are now to us. If they are to succeed and become a first world industrialized economy (still quite a long way to go), they will definitely need to export to the West. If they piss in our Cheerios, they will in essence be screwed.

It is not hard for our government to remove trade rights with China. It is almost as easy for US corporations to shift production to lower Asia and South America (which may happen anyways) for the same price as Chinese labor. Shipping would be cheaper and quality control would arguably be easier to well, control. If this were to occur, China would fall by the wayside within a matter of years.

A move like this would probably also lead to civil war.


So, in the end it looks like China is heading in one direction. Civil war. And they definitely need some help with their foreign policy. China desperately wants to be a world player but they screw everything up. The way to get ahead in the world is not to piss off your rival (India), and the leading world economies.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Probably a threat to future generations of Americans .


I think NeoCons could use that argument to say we should attack them now before it is too late ;) :)
 

Krk3561

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2002
3,242
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Hey, their economy is growing at a 9.5% clip. They must be doing something right. Perhaps we should work to imitate them? ;)


BTW, I thought I read yesterday that Whirlpool was now going to buy Maytag.

When you're at the bottom, theres only one way to go!
 

Proletariat

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2004
5,614
0
0
China will attack us at some point.

Their whole philosophy is that of the 'Middle Kingdom'. They believe they have sovereign right to the world.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Probably a threat to future generations of Americans .


I think NeoCons could use that argument to say we should attack them now before it is too late ;) :)
Hey, we could take out N. Korea at the same time!
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Proletariat
China will attack us at some point.

Their whole philosophy is that of the 'Middle Kingdom'. They believe they have sovereign right to the world.
They do? What would Che say?
 

Warthog912

Golden Member
Jun 17, 2001
1,653
0
76
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Probably a threat to future generations of Americans .


I think NeoCons could use that argument to say we should attack them now before it is too late ;) :)


You must have used all of your collective brain cells to come up with that comment. That being said, Yes, I do believe that China will eventually become a player in the world stage, albeit not in the "proper" ways (threats, etc). I believe thay will eventually grow to big for their shoes, which will lead to the downfall of the current government.
 

dighn

Lifer
Aug 12, 2001
22,820
4
81
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Their whole philosophy is that of the 'Middle Kingdom'. They believe they have sovereign right to the world.

I'm not sure if you are joking but in case you aren't, your information is outdated by about 300 hundred years :roll:
 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
7,064
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
;)


BTW, I thought I read yesterday that Whirlpool was now going to buy Maytag.

Haier has been trying to buy Maytag, they are a chinese company. Maytag should have sold to Frigidaire when they had the chance. If Whirlpool snagged Maytag wouldn't change much, Whirlpool is slowly migrating their manufacturing to China anyway
 

zettler

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
705
2
81
Amazing! I seldom come to this part of Anandtech but did tonight to post about what happened 36 years ago, and I find this thread with people who are wondering the same thoughts I posted elsewhere four days ago!

Here is what I posted there:

"Is it just me, or does anyone else think that China declared (economic) war on the United States of America decades ago?

News story today at Yahoo, ?U.S. appliance maker Whirlpool Corp. on Sunday proposed to buy smaller rival Maytag Corp. for more than $1.3 billion, topping an existing buyout offer for the maker of Hoover vacuums and possibly sparking a bidding war?offer could ignite a bidding war, as a group including Chinese appliance maker Haier has expressed interest in buying Maytag for $16 a share but has not made a formal bid. Haier's partners -- U.S. investment firms Bain Capital Partners and Blackstone Capital -- were not available for comment.?

Then of course by now everyone has heard about China trying to buy UNOCAL ? the oil company? ?The Chinese are coming -- for a U.S. oil company. So should Americans worry, or shrug. Alarms are ringing on Capitol Hill over last week's takeover bid by CNOOC Ltd. for Unocal Corp. The proposed $18.5 billion deal, lawmakers warn, has ominous implications for national security -- in particular, the security of U.S. oil lifelines.?

Maybe I am a remnant from the Cold War but when I start looking at the pieces of how our money goes to China for goods, how many people they have and how utterly dominated they are by their elite few (some call it a government), and how best they could defeat the Free World (if that is their ?real? desire), it just seems to me they could do it without firing a shot by buying us out from under ourselves with our very own money?

I am not into conspiracy theories (but there WAS a second shooter in Dallas ;) ), I just like to problem-solve and this scenario just seems plausible ? if for nothing else but for the sake of discussion.

I am not trying to slam the Chinese or incite animosity towards them or their ?government?, I just have to wonder out loud sometimes and this has been bothering me for some time."

You should have seen the responses I received at a Hunting forum!
 

Tsunami982

Senior member
Apr 22, 2003
936
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Hey, their economy is growing at a 9.5% clip. They must be doing something right. Perhaps we should work to imitate them? ;)


BTW, I thought I read yesterday that Whirlpool was now going to buy Maytag.

i dont know if we should imitate much of anything they are doing. lets beat and kill our own people into submission, make them work for peanuts, and run them over with tanks if they peacefully protest. and the reason they have such economic growth is because they keep their population essentially as a slave labor force, which makes their products much cheaper. their economy is growing at such a fast rate because it was so weak to begin with.

and yes, china has been trying to undermine the US at pretty much everything.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
1. They hate us down to the man on the street. Proof?
We witnessed an overwhelmingly negative response from the Chinese community worldwide and especially from those inside China, including reports of students taking to the streets and cheering after the terrorist attacks. For many of the Chinese scholars overseas, that sight was very disturbing. After a careful analysis, they found that a major reason for the negative reaction was because of the long-term Anti American propaganda from the Chinese Communist Party.
http://www.ntdtv.com/xtr/eng/aReadArticle.jsp?id=27491

2. They are building a hyper "defence" apparatus. You think thier "space" program is about getting a man to that worthless rock 36 years after us?

3. They have enabled, plotted and supplied our defeat in two wars. Veitnam and NK.

4. They steal everything that is not locked down from us and our I.P. means nothing.

5. Philisophically we are exact opposites, they are RED, dictators, anti freedom, anti democracy, anti religion and purge or "cleanse" those who arn't.

6. And of course the economic stuff mentioned in this thread.

It's not "if" but "when" are we going to have war with them.

I consider our politicians traitors for enableing them and pushing this "free trade" BS on Americans all for the dollars of the elites who really owns them. Most Americans truly believe this trade to be benficial and that China will just just all of sudden someday turn around, turn blue, and be our freind so I don't hold anything against thier naivete... most people have to learn the hard way.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
America's never surrendered in any war but our objectives failed, meaning lost, in large part to Chineese doing. You don't consider it a win, do ya? Or is it a stalemate like when our spy-plane got shot at, stripped but at least the navy personel were returned?
 

Promethply

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,741
0
76
Where's the CIA when we need them; they should be busying themselves trying to stir up rebellion amongst the discontented and various minorities in China. Aren't we still the champion when it comes to clandestine operations anymore? This way we can make it seem like as if it's a popular revolt against the Chinese government, just like we've done in the past in many places successfully, including in Latin America, and Southeast Asia.
 

Promethply

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,741
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Or we can always help India develop their nuclear programme further to keep China busy, while we keep slapping them (China) with human rights allegations across their face.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Promethply
Where's the CIA when we need them; they should be busying themselves trying to stir up rebellion amongst the discontented and various minorities in China. Aren't we still the champion when it comes to clandestine operations anymore? This way we can make it seem like as if it's a popular revolt against the Chinese government, just like we've done in the past in many places successfully, including in Latin America, and Southeast Asia.

That was Plames next assignment before they outed her.;) Seriously, real hard to infiltrate that society.. We can't even get into terrorist cells whose countries are much freer and you don't have to be "connected" to the party to rise though the ranks.