China zooms ahead in education

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DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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Start kicking problem children out of school completely, let their parents pay for them to go to a private school or no school at all. Maybe the parents will beat some sense into their children and then they could take some tests to possibly let back into the school system.

Until you do this, it's pretty hard to hold teachers 100% accountable. And, the primary reason you see improved scores in charter schools & private schools is that those kids ARE kicked out; well, simply not admitted in the first place. It's pretty easy to improve the grades of a cherry-picked group of kids.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
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(2.) The U.S. doesn't have any shortage of scientists or engineers nor of smart, talented, hard-working, ambitious Americans who would or could train to be scientists and engineers. See:
We're talking about grade school. General education among the majority of voters.

What matters is the general science and math literacy of the majority because uninformed people tend to make remarkably stupid decisions. Example: retard parents wanting to ban wireless internet in schools because they think wifi causes cancer. Any grade 12 student can explain in simple terms why that is so retarded. That becomes a real serious question - why do so many adults lack even a high school understanding of physics? Why do so many people not understand how exponents work? How are we ever going to get good environmental policies in place when voting people are scared of dihydrogen monoxide? (dhmo is water)

join the fight to ban water!
http://www.dhmo.org/

That's pretty dumb. There's no way anyone would actually try to ban that, right? You'd be surprised how many people would sign a petition to ban such a thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw

Here's some stories snopes has about people being tricked by the ban water movement
http://www.snopes.com/science/dhmo.asp
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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What matters is the general science and math literacy of the majority because uninformed people tend to make remarkably stupid decisions.

Not only that, but then there are our elected officials who know very little. There are places where politicians are wasted our time with considering votes on whether there should be warnings on cell phones that "may cause cancer." And, even the smarter politicians, who should know better on many issues, have to answer to (i.e. be re-electable) their constituents who are often ignorant.

i.e. Texas Super-Collider. We could have had the TOP jobs in the world in science in the U.S. But, instead, those jobs are in France and Switzerland.
 
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ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
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i.e. Texas Super-Collider. We could have had the TOP jobs in the world in science in the U.S. But, instead, those jobs are in France and Switzerland.
This one is always frustrating. Ya see, by creating tiny black holes, it somehow generates energy from nothing and will somehow destroy the universe. Somehow.

The people who really get shafted are often children. In a normal house, a kid gets sick and takes cough medicine to sleep through the night. In a house full of hippies, chemicals are bad so they look for homeopathic remedies that don't do anything. Pain killers that don't work, cough medicines that don't work, antihistamines that don't work, disinfectants that don't work.

There was also the hippy anti-nuclear movement that is responsible for the US avoiding nuclear power and instead relying on CO2 releasing fossil fuels like coal to generate power. Thanks for causing global warming, jerks. (nuclear was, at one time, praised as the next big thing)
 
Oct 30, 2004
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We're talking about grade school. General education among the majority of voters.

What matters is the general science and math literacy of the majority because uninformed people tend to make remarkably stupid decisions.

I agree that it would be good if we had more scientific literacy in the U.S. and if people in general were better educated and more rational. However, I don't think the current situation is the crisis people make it out to be. The concern people have about the statistics is that America is going to fall behind economically.

I certainly agree that our nation's economy is languishing, but a lack of STEM knowledge is not the reason.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
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Boom. Destroyed us. I guess university of Virginia had 600 Chinese students apply and they ALL scored 800 on math sat tests. All of them scored perfect. China is gonna kill us.

I am a little late to the thread but going to throw in my 2 cents worth. As long as the United States moves toward viewing a college degree as a right and not a privilege... our education system will continue its downward spiral. Sure obama can make it so every American can go to college and get a degree thanks to free education... but the whole system will have to be further dumbed down to accommodate.

Rather than accept the fact that not all kids are created equal... schools will continue to cater to the lowest denominator. Unless your star student can afford tutoring or a private school.. they will likely become very bored and disinterested in education.

The Chinese are not as politically correct as the United States. If you can't grasp the concept of Algebra in China... well you fail. Here in the US... that is okay. We will give you an A for effort and you can always take remedial math in college while you work on your 4 year degree.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
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I am a little late to the thread but going to throw in my 2 cents worth. As long as the United States moves toward viewing a college degree as a right and not a privilege... our education system will continue its downward spiral. Sure obama can make it so every American can go to college and get a degree thanks to free education... but the whole system will have to be further dumbed down to accommodate.

Rather than accept the fact that not all kids are created equal... schools will continue to cater to the lowest denominator. Unless your star student can afford tutoring or a private school.. they will likely become very bored and disinterested in education.

The Chinese are not as politically correct as the United States. If you can't grasp the concept of Algebra in China... well you fail. Here in the US... that is okay. We will give you an A for effort and you can always take remedial math in college while you work on your 4 year degree.

I agree. We also are creating academic inflation. Everyone having a ba in something means ba's in something don't mean much. I can hire someone to work my books for 35k a year or less. This is a person that did 12 years of basic school and another 4 years of college. I didn't finish college and focused on other things and I made 5k in 20 hours yesterday.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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If you believe a report like this you are mentally incompetent. In asia high school is not even mandatory. This report is pure baloney. I think in the USA we should exclude all children of illegal parents or that are undocumented from test averages. We also need to just kick some our students out of school altogether. Then we need to charge dropouts money if they want to take GED classes. We give education rejects too many free-bees. Sometimes we even pay people who dropped out to go back and study for thier GED. Cant Fix Stupid.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
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If you believe a report like this you are mentally incompetent. In asia high school is not even mandatory. This report is pure baloney. I think in the USA we should exclude all children of illegal parents or that are undocumented from test averages. We also need to just kick some our students out of school altogether. Then we need to charge dropouts money if they want to take GED classes. We give education rejects too many free-bees. Sometimes we even pay people who dropped out to go back and study for thier GED. Cant Fix Stupid.


What you say would matter if life was fair but its not. If china has 6x the number of students we have and half of those are almost the perfection of a scientific mind do you think companies will say "well it not fair how they do schooling over there" or do you think they will take advantage of the grey matter?
 

nyker96

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
5,630
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I am a little late to the thread but going to throw in my 2 cents worth. As long as the United States moves toward viewing a college degree as a right and not a privilege... our education system will continue its downward spiral. Sure obama can make it so every American can go to college and get a degree thanks to free education... but the whole system will have to be further dumbed down to accommodate.

Rather than accept the fact that not all kids are created equal... schools will continue to cater to the lowest denominator. Unless your star student can afford tutoring or a private school.. they will likely become very bored and disinterested in education.

The Chinese are not as politically correct as the United States. If you can't grasp the concept of Algebra in China... well you fail. Here in the US... that is okay. We will give you an A for effort and you can always take remedial math in college while you work on your 4 year degree.

I must disagree with this gent here. It is true China rely on testing standards and cutoffs a lot and is pretty draconian on these standards. But it doesn't mean this is producing superior students by itself. I think they are doing better because they are pouring more cash into schools and teacher education.

I think giving someone a second chance isn't a bad practice especially as in life, sometimes you don't get everything the 1st time around. There are many capable people who just need to get their priority or personal situation straight, a second chance benefits many. Of course, you cannot constantly let people pass even when they failed, there has to be a limit. However, I disagree that this practice is a problem of US education system.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
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I think they are doing better because they are pouring more cash into schools and teacher education.

They have 100 kids per teacher. They arent spending more then us. Crack that nut. If you put 100 of our 13 year olds in a room with 1 adult what would happen?
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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They have 100 kids per teacher. They arent spending more then us. Crack that nut. If you put 100 of our 13 year olds in a room with 1 adult what would happen?

100 of their kids would sit, behave, and do their best.
100 of our kids, the classroom would be roudy, uncooperative, insubordinate; virtually zero learning would take place.

However, their average class size isn't 100 students per teacher.

p.s. in the US, it's not uncommon for schools to have 150 or more students per math teacher in a high school.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
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100 of their kids would sit, behave, and do their best.
100 of our kids, the classroom would be roudy, uncooperative, insubordinate; virtually zero learning would take place.

However, their average class size isn't 100 students per teacher.

p.s. in the US, it's not uncommon for schools to have 150 or more students per math teacher in a high school.

You clearly work in the making industrial robots segment of our economy. How do you suggest fixing the problem?
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/2010121...yBHNlYwN5bl9wcmludHBhZ2UEc2xrA2JhY2t0b3N0b3J5

Why Shanghai schooled the US: Americans think they're too smart to work hard

By Jonathan Zimmerman Jonathan Zimmerman Tue Dec 14, 2:29 pm ET
New York – Are you smart? I mean, really smart? Like, so smart that you don’t really have to work?
Then you’re kidding yourself. And your belief in your own intelligence is holding you back.
That’s the real story behind the latest piece of bad news in American education, which continues to stack up poorly next to other nations. On a standardized test administered to 15-year-olds in over 60 countries, the US came in 17th in reading, 23rd in science, and 31st in math.
West loses edge to Asia in education: Top five OECD findings
Meanwhile, Asian countries clustered near the top. Students in Shanghai, China, nearly ran the table, scoring first in the world in all three tested subject areas – science, math, and reading. But Japan, South Korea, Singapore, and Hong Kong all outperformed America, as well, on all three tests.
Hard work vs. intelligenceWhy? Politicians and pundits fingered the usual suspects: our schools. Whereas Asian countries demand rigor and hard work from their students, the theory goes, our own schools have gone soft. Witness the larger number of school days in most Asian countries, the stricter academic requirements, the greater volume of homework, and so on.
There’s something to that. Asian students do work harder, by every measure we can find. But there’s more to it than that. Put simply, Asians believe that hard work is the prime determinant of their success. By contrast, Americans and other Westerners typically ascribe academic performance to innate ability.
And that’s a fool’s game. For the more we believe in “smarts,” the less likely we are to persist in a task. If you’re “good at” a subject like math, to borrow another favorite American phrase, then you don’t really have to try; and if you’re not good at it, there’s no use in trying to get better.

Consider a 2001 experiment by Canadian researchers, who administered creativity tests to Japanese and Canadian college students. Regardless of how the students performed, the researchers told some of them that they had done well and others that they did poorly. The researchers then gave the students a similar test and told them to spend as much time on it as they wished.
The Canadians worked harder on the second test if they were told they had succeeded on the first one. They were “good at it,” and that gave them the confidence to continue. Failing students were not “good at it,” meanwhile, so they put in less work. But the Japanese worked longer on the second test if they had failed the first one! They interpreted their initial setback as a function of weak effort, not of ability, so they re-applied themselves to the task instead of blowing it off.
Too much praise?Or consider a now-famous 1998 experiment by psychologists Claudia Mueller and Carol Dweck, who told American children they had done well on a test and then praised some for being smart, others for working hard. They then gave both sets of kids the chance to work on another test – either easy or hard.
About 66 percent of the children who were praised for their intelligence chose the easy problems, while 90 percent of the kids praised for hard work selected the more difficult ones. In subsequent exercises, the "smart" kids performed worse, and the “hard working” kids did better. The smart kids were also more likely to attribute their wrong answers to a lack of ability, while the kids praised for hard work blamed their own lack of effort when they failed.

The moral of these stories seems clear: If you want kids to succeed, don’t talk about their intelligence. That will only hold them back.
And it does. I’ve been a teacher for nearly 30 years, and I’ve seen students try to hide how much schoolwork they do. I mean, if they have to work that hard, how smart can they be?
Americans like to say that their country is a land of opportunity; that anyone can make it, if they just try hard enough. But our educational system tells another story altogether. By emphasizing who is smart – and who is not – we teach our kids that their inborn capabilities are more important than their sweat and toil.
Persistent achievement gap vexes education reformers: Six takeaways
So why should we be surprised when the kids don’t try? Sure, our schools should ask more of our students. But we also need to ask why they don’t, and what role our flawed ideas about intelligence play in the answer. To paraphrase Shakespeare: the fault, dear Americans, lies not just in our schools. It’s in ourselves.
Jonathan Zimmerman teaches education and history at New York University. He is the author, most recently, of “Small Wonder: The Little Red Schoolhouse in History and Memory.”
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
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100 of their kids would sit, behave, and do their best.
100 of our kids, the classroom would be roudy, uncooperative, insubordinate; virtually zero learning would take place.
It's because white people are genetically inferior from the get go
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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Well not trying to find excuse but in the West and US, positive reinforcement is used most often and most kids are told they are the smartest, most unique, special by their parents, teacher, movies and media.

Obviously that makes kids in US soft and lazy but it does give kids confidence and that may not be a bad thing. How many times in your job have you seen confidence prick got promoted over smart, quiet people?

It all depends how you look at it, US may not have the best scientist and mathematicians in the world, but we will do okay if we have the best BS'er and salesman to get the business and outsource the real work to China and India. :)
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
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Last night I heard a speech by Andreas Schleicher who works for the OECD. He basically summarized the latest PISA results for the DCPS board.

Basically, we all need to take a good look at Finland. They spend a lot less per child than we do and yet get much better results.

Highlights of his speech last night:

1) The Common Core Standards that the US is implementing are good benchmarks, on par with the highest-scoring PISA countries.

2) Once adopted, the greater question is how to make sure that the intent of these standards is properly delivered to students through teaching materials and teachers and assessment.

3) The US pays its teachers considerably less than high-scoring nations. Meaning, these nations put a much greater emphasis on teacher pay. The US must find a way to incentivize people in other professions (engineers, etc) to move into the teaching field.

4) The student:teacher ratio is far more important for elementary students (fewer per teacher) than at the secondary level where money can be saved by having more students per classroom.

5) Students also need to be better incetivized. Meaning, benchmark tests should count towards GPA, grade advancement, etc. Students need to better realize that what they are doing has a greater impact on their future success.

6) Horizontal accountability is arguably of greater importance than vertical accountability. Meaning, teachers should be more accountable and transparent to themselves within a given school.

7) High-scoring PISA nations often send their best and brightest educators to the most troubled schools. They have to excel there before moving on to more desirable jobs or locations.

8) The USA is only one of three nations in the world (Turkey and Israel) where school funding is a direct relationship to the socioeconomic status of the community. Meaning, the rich schools get richer. In just about everywhere else, the trend is the exact opposite. (I know that in Germany, richer states have to help fund the schools in poorer states.)

9) The length of a school period/day is not that different from lower-scoring nations to higher-scoring nations. The difference lies in how efficient the teacher uses that time. (I personally feel that the US should move to a year-round school year, moving vacation from the summer and adding it to other breaks during the year.)
 

zhangjohn

Junior Member
Dec 20, 2010
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Never admire Chinese way, espiecially their education system. Do you know how do chinese achieve this high score? Pictures always tell your truth. This is a ordinary class room of high school, full of books on the desk.

Snap5.jpg



Snap6.jpg




Snap7.jpg



I don't know how to translate this word to English, I used google translate tool, it give me three answers:

risk one's life
defy death
exert the utmost strength

Do you know how the sutdents celebrate when they finished the exmination?

They tear the books to a piece.



Snap1.jpg



Snap2.jpg



Snap4.jpg



Do you still admire Chinese way? :colbert:
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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hello there. Are you saying they work hard? Pictures show me kids working hard.
 

zhangjohn

Junior Member
Dec 20, 2010
17
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Yes, the students work too hard. Learning become torment. School become a factory. A lively child is inputted, a high-core-machine is outputted.

When the suffering fucking day is gone, the students celebrate it by this way. "Tear books" become a fashion. More and more students tear their books when they finish the examination.

That's interesting. When American are talking about how to get a high score, we are talking about how to learn from you. American education system is more healthy than China.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
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Yes, the students work too hard. Learning become torment. School become a factory. A lively child is inputted, a high-core-machine is outputted.

When the suffering fucking day is gone, the students celebrate it by this way. "Tear books" become a fashion. More and more students tear their books when they finish the examination.

That's interesting. When American are talking about how to get a high score, we are talking about how to learn from you. American education system is more healthy than China.

^^ there you have it people. We cannot compete in the "high-core-machine" world as we are unwilling to do that to our kids.

zhangjohn thank you for posting this and I'm sorry the modern industrial world has ground us all up. If i could suggest anything to you it would be to find time to be creative. After schooling like that it will be hard but take some time to paint, sculpt or do music. Do it for yourself and eventually it will become a rewarding thing.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
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Yes. Emotion and feeling are ancestral traits which need to be selected against in the further development of our species. A highly educated and logical populace will push mankind to greater heights in a culture where intellect is valued over all else. Those that do fail are still smart enough to kill themselves, as is witnessed in Asian countries where the concept of honor versus shame is highly stressed. There is no negative side to such a culture.

^^ there you have it people. We cannot compete in the "high-core-machine" world as we are unwilling to do that to our kids.

zhangjohn thank you for posting this and I'm sorry the modern industrial world has ground us all up. If i could suggest anything to you it would be to find time to be creative. After schooling like that it will be hard but take some time to paint, sculpt or do music. Do it for yourself and eventually it will become a rewarding thing.

Yes, and it is why the lazy white and ex-slave black members of our society are destined to hold America back. China and India will overtake us so long as they continue to drive the importance of education to their children. The negative consequences of our own personal failure is trivial compared to the evolution of mankind as a whole.
 
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