China poised to blow by US in science, engineering and more....

[realibrad]

Don't know if you're attempting to be the next Will Rogers or Will Smith. So in other words, if you were the US President in 1995 or 2001, you would have signed off on the WTO for the US and the Chinese? Either you're sidestepping or missing the point entirely.

And I don't take Engineer as smug, more like frustrated to the core. Someone made Americans feel guilty for having self-interests several decades ago and they were fundamentally wrong. In fact, life and human nature itself should have self-preservation at its core, even amongst all these woman-man-made artifices.

Lol, you are for globalization and you dont realize it.

Fighting for self-interests is the reason jobs were outsourced. The people who ran the business realized that people wanted to pay less for goods, and so they had to reduce costs. They did this by shipping out the jobs to China.

Lol

So people should be for their self interests when it benefits you, but not when it does not give anything to you?

 

[bradley]

Lol, you are for globalization and you dont realize it.

Fighting for self-interests is the reason jobs were outsourced. The people who ran the business realized that people wanted to pay less for goods, and so they had to reduce costs. They did this by shipping out the jobs to China.

Lol

So people should be for their self interests when it benefits you, but not when it does not give anything to you?

Do you really understand the WTO and what it entails? Or have you been too busy listening to Jethro Tull's "Thick As a Brick" all these years.

Seriously, start here:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=colonization+wto

If you still don't get it, you likely never will. After a while, self-preservation moves on without us.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

You think people should be entitled to low-skill high-pay manufacturing jobs solely on the basis of birthright. Who is smug?

Let me preface this by saying that I lean conservative because what I am about to say would probably have me branded a "liberal."

Not everyone is capable of being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant, etc. As a matter-of-fact, I think you're out of touch with just how different the "average" American really is -- don't take offense to that either, because I certainly am out of touch and am amazed as I see more.

However, even though I am out of touch with the average American, I do realize that these people need to be able to work at jobs that pay decent incomes so they can support their families. Because guess what? They're not going to stop having families and if they don't have decent jobs to support them, that means we'll all have to support them. I'd much rather a company take that burden than the US government.

And while I certainly don't harbor any ill will towards the Chinese guy building iPhones or the Mexican worker making jeans, as they're just trying to improve their own family situation, the fact of the matter is that I am a citizen of the United States and I pay taxes so our government does what is best for our country. Lowering all boundaries to trade and trading with countries who manipulate their currency to remain competitive or restrict the import of American goods is not "free trade"; it is being taken advantage of. The people chiefly benefitting from this arrangement are the ultra wealthy -- the same folks, by the way, who were singing how free trade would make everyone wealthier and create jobs for all. That hasn't materialized.

 

[Engineer]

Let me preface this by saying that I lean conservative because what I am about to say would probably have me branded a "liberal."

Not everyone is capable of being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant, etc. As a matter-of-fact, I think you're out of touch with just how different the "average" American really is -- don't take offense to that either, because I certainly am out of touch and am amazed as I see more.

However, even though I am out of touch with the average American, I do realize that these people need to be able to work at jobs that pay decent incomes so they can support their families. Because guess what? They're not going to stop having families and if they don't have decent jobs to support them, that means we'll all have to support them. I'd much rather a company take that burden than the US government.

And while I certainly don't harbor any ill will towards the Chinese guy building iPhones or the Mexican worker making jeans, as they're just trying to improve their own family situation, the fact of the matter is that I am a citizen of the United States and I pay taxes so our government does what is best for our country. Lowering all boundaries to trade and trading with countries who manipulate their currency to remain competitive or restrict the import of American goods is not "free trade"; it is being taken advantage of. The people chiefly benefitting from this arrangement or the ultra wealthy -- the same folks, by the way, who were singing how free trade would make everyone wealthier and create jobs for all. That hasn't materialized.

:thumbsup:

Couldn't agree more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Thebobo]

Let me preface this by saying that I lean conservative because what I am about to say would probably have me branded a "liberal."

Not everyone is capable of being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant, etc. As a matter-of-fact, I think you're out of touch with just how different the "average" American really is -- don't take offense to that either, because I certainly am out of touch and am amazed as I see more.
.

Average american as now as a grown up? I agree with you.

BUT we can do better and that starts with the children and education.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Average american as now as a grown up? I agree with you.

BUT we can do better and that starts with the children and education.

Yeah, I don't deny that. But there are just some people who will never succeed in our educational system and for those people, what do they do?

 

[Engineer]

Yeah, I don't deny that. But there are just some people who will never succeed in our educational system and for those people, what do they do?

We are already getting a surplus of college educated people who are filling the lower end jobs. We can send everyone in the country to college and we'll end up with lots of debt and the most educated McDonalds and WalMart employees in the world.

I 100% agree with you as I see this day in and day out!

 

[werepossum]

Lol, you are for globalization and you dont realize it.

Fighting for self-interests is the reason jobs were outsourced. The people who ran the business realized that people wanted to pay less for goods, and so they had to reduce costs. They did this by shipping out the jobs to China.

Lol

So people should be for their self interests when it benefits you, but not when it does not give anything to you?

You're missing the problem. Companies always had that choice, but for the first two hundred years we also had tariffs and import duties in place that partially protected the American worker. (Or if you prefer, protected the government from the loss of taxes the worker would have paid.) Now we do not have that protection for either. Nor do we have a technological edge; we gave that away when Clinton removed all the technology transfer bans. The only thing left is a race to the bottom, our work ethic, innovation and smarts against the other guys'. But we're competing with third world nations, some with almost no regulatory burden, and famously in China with a nation whose currency is artificially pegged to our own to guarantee their pricing advantage. Many Americans still have great work ethics, and we still have a culture of innovation, but guess what? We're competing with some of the historically smartest, most innovative nations around. China and India ruled great chunks of the world at times, and it's not because they were stupid, hide bound and lazy. And personally, I don't want to directly compete with the guy who thinks thirty square meters and rice three times a day is a pretty sweet deal, 'cause even if I win, I'll lose.

Let me preface this by saying that I lean conservative because what I am about to say would probably have me branded a "liberal."

Not everyone is capable of being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant, etc. As a matter-of-fact, I think you're out of touch with just how different the "average" American really is -- don't take offense to that either, because I certainly am out of touch and am amazed as I see more.

However, even though I am out of touch with the average American, I do realize that these people need to be able to work at jobs that pay decent incomes so they can support their families. Because guess what? They're not going to stop having families and if they don't have decent jobs to support them, that means we'll all have to support them. I'd much rather a company take that burden than the US government.

And while I certainly don't harbor any ill will towards the Chinese guy building iPhones or the Mexican worker making jeans, as they're just trying to improve their own family situation, the fact of the matter is that I am a citizen of the United States and I pay taxes so our government does what is best for our country. Lowering all boundaries to trade and trading with countries who manipulate their currency to remain competitive or restrict the import of American goods is not "free trade"; it is being taken advantage of. The people chiefly benefitting from this arrangement are the ultra wealthy -- the same folks, by the way, who were singing how free trade would make everyone wealthier and create jobs for all. That hasn't materialized.

Amen, brother, and damned well said.

 

[IGBT]

no surprise. the US is dying of political correctness and condom / crotch politics all which have infected education.

 

[dmcowen674]

Let me preface this by saying that I lean conservative because what I am about to say would probably have me branded a "liberal."

Not everyone is capable of being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant, etc. As a matter-of-fact, I think you're out of touch with just how different the "average" American really is -- don't take offense to that either, because I certainly am out of touch and am amazed as I see more.

However, even though I am out of touch with the average American, I do realize that these people need to be able to work at jobs that pay decent incomes so they can support their families. Because guess what? They're not going to stop having families and if they don't have decent jobs to support them, that means we'll all have to support them. I'd much rather a company take that burden than the US government.

And while I certainly don't harbor any ill will towards the Chinese guy building iPhones or the Mexican worker making jeans, as they're just trying to improve their own family situation, the fact of the matter is that I am a citizen of the United States and I pay taxes so our government does what is best for our country. Lowering all boundaries to trade and trading with countries who manipulate their currency to remain competitive or restrict the import of American goods is not "free trade"; it is being taken advantage of. The people chiefly benefitting from this arrangement are the ultra wealthy -- the same folks, by the way, who were singing how free trade would make everyone wealthier and create jobs for all. That hasn't materialized.

I know Clinton signed NAFTA but both sides have been pushing this Global Free Trade shit but Republicans clearly support it more.

I've never seen Republicans in here against this so called Free Trade crap up until your half hearted post above.

You are now just starting to realize with the middle class you hate gone that even your elite upper class will be affected as well.

No shit sherlock.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I know Clinton signed NAFTA but both sides have been pushing this Global Free Trade shit but Republicans clearly support it more.

I've never seen Republicans in here against this so called Free Trade crap up until your half hearted post above.

You are now just starting to realize with the middle class you hate gone that even your elite upper class will be affected as well.

No shit sherlock.

You're nothing but a partisan troll. You're also apparently illiterate, as I have been bashing "Free Trade" on these very forums for years. Both parties sold us down the river whether you want to admit it or not.

And the middle class I hate? I grew up in the middle class and am still in the middle class, you retard.

 

[bradley]

Just for the record, I voted Perot in 1992 and 1996 and would have again in 2000. However the writing was already on the wall. Perot has strangely gone silent on many of these issues. Hmm.....

 

[Engineer]

Just saw Walmart's response commercial to what's happening (at the lower level of middle class jobs going away...not the higher tech jobs yet to flow out)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LYI--n-tjE

 

[Engineer]

Just for the record, I voted Perot in 1992 and 1996 and would have again in 2000. However the writing was already on the wall. Perot has strangely gone silent on many of these issues. Hmm.....

Perot is too damn old to care now.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Let me preface this by saying that I lean conservative because what I am about to say would probably have me branded a "liberal."

Not everyone is capable of being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant, etc. As a matter-of-fact, I think you're out of touch with just how different the "average" American really is -- don't take offense to that either, because I certainly am out of touch and am amazed as I see more.

However, even though I am out of touch with the average American, I do realize that these people need to be able to work at jobs that pay decent incomes so they can support their families. Because guess what? They're not going to stop having families and if they don't have decent jobs to support them, that means we'll all have to support them. I'd much rather a company take that burden than the US government.

And while I certainly don't harbor any ill will towards the Chinese guy building iPhones or the Mexican worker making jeans, as they're just trying to improve their own family situation, the fact of the matter is that I am a citizen of the United States and I pay taxes so our government does what is best for our country. Lowering all boundaries to trade and trading with countries who manipulate their currency to remain competitive or restrict the import of American goods is not "free trade"; it is being taken advantage of. The people chiefly benefitting from this arrangement are the ultra wealthy -- the same folks, by the way, who were singing how free trade would make everyone wealthier and create jobs for all. That hasn't materialized.

The average American student is still behind the average German, Japanese, Finnish, etc student in mathematics and science, and the gap isn't narrowing. Not *everyone* can be an engineer, but they certainly have better job security than those that are unskilled. A cursory look at the percentage of Asians in our country vs those in college, particularly in STEM fields, makes it obvious that culture can compensate for average disposition (unless we only get the super-smart ones, which admittedly some argument could be made for since it's not going to be the poor farmers that immigrate here).

"Stop having families", maybe not, but it's not the children of doctors and engineers usually popping them out manically. As long as people believe it's acceptable for human trash to use their citizenship as an excuse for breeding and consuming, said human trash will continue to do those things. Companies are only going to shift the burden to the working consumers. Encouragement of abortion, widespread birth control, and strict penalties for delinquent children would be a start.

I don't have any argument regarding manipulation of currency or unbalanced trade agreements. My main problem lies with the op and subsequent posts by him and others that seem to think any instance of China surpassing us is an act of aggression or socioeconomic war. Having clothing company X move jobs to countries where they can pay child laborers a dime a day isn't even remotely comparable to educated Chinese taking our science and engineering jobs right out from under our smug faces.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

The average American student is still behind the average German, Japanese, Finnish, etc student in mathematics and science, and the gap isn't narrowing.

Yeah, we've heard this for years. What's being done about it?

Not *everyone* can be an engineer, but they certainly have better job security than those that are unskilled.

This isn't a point that is being debated or even disputed.

A cursory look at the percentage of Asians in our country vs those in college, particularly in STEM fields, makes it obvious that culture can compensate for average disposition (unless we only get the super-smart ones, which admittedly some argument could be made for since it's not going to be the poor farmers that immigrate here).

We do receive the wealthier and more intelligent people from other countries, that's true. I don't think anyone disagrees about the cultural aspects, and our politicians don't seem to care and like to focus on nonsense issues of political correctness rather than the core issues that are really important.

The larger point is that even if every single working-age adult had a college degree, there aren't enough jobs for them. As a matter-of-fact, the situation would be even worse than it is (lack of jobs plus even more debt). What do you do when your entire population has degrees and you're still seeing upwards of 6-8% unemployment (to make no mention of underemployment)? Are you then going to start saying "But...but....everyone now needs a Master's degree!!!"? The fact is a Master's degree or above is required for very, very few jobs out there. Someone who has worked in business a few years likely has the portion of MBA knowledge relevant to his/her position. The same is true for many other MS/MA degrees as well.

"Stop having families", maybe not, but it's not the children of doctors and engineers usually popping them out manically.

Again, not being discussed.

As long as people believe it's acceptable for human trash to use their citizenship as an excuse for breeding and consuming, said human trash will continue to do those things. Companies are only going to shift the burden to the working consumers. Encouragement of abortion, widespread birth control, and strict penalties for delinquent children would be a start.

Because someone doesn't have a degree or aren't capable of going to college, they're now trash? That's a very narrow (and sad) view of people. A couple of additional comments:

1. I assume you mean by companies "shifting their burden" that you mean that they'll raise the prices of products if forced to pay decent wages. We have two choices -- the companies can raise prices or the government will raise taxes to support these people because they can't support themselves. Which do you prefer? Taxes aren't optional but purchasing a company's products is optional.

2. What people are missing is that manufacturing just doesn't employ "human trash" (to use your words). Each plant has dozens, if not hundreds, of white collar professionals -- supervisors, managers, engineers, etc. We're costing them jobs too.

I don't have any argument regarding manipulation of currency or unbalanced trade agreements. My main problem lies with the op and subsequent posts by him and others that seem to think any instance of China surpassing us is an act of aggression or socioeconomic war. Having clothing company X move jobs to countries where they can pay child laborers a dime a day isn't even remotely comparable to educated Chinese taking our science and engineering jobs right out from under our smug faces.

So you're OK with shipping manufacturing jobs over to China but not shipping engineering and science jobs? Is that correct?

 

[Engineer]

Yeah, we've heard this for years. What's being done about it?

This isn't a point that is being debated or even disputed.

We do receive the wealthier and more intelligent people from other countries, that's true. I don't think anyone disagrees about the cultural aspects, and our politicians don't seem to care and like to focus on nonsense issues of political correctness rather than the core issues that are really important.

The larger point is that even if every single working-age adult had a college degree, there aren't enough jobs for them. As a matter-of-fact, the situation would be even worse than it is (lack of jobs plus even more debt). What do you do when your entire population has degrees and you're still seeing upwards of 6-8% unemployment (to make no mention of underemployment)? Are you then going to start saying "But...but....everyone now needs a Master's degree!!!"? The fact is a Master's degree or above is required for very, very few jobs out there. Someone who has worked in business a few years likely has the portion of MBA knowledge relevant to his/her position. The same is true for many other MS/MA degrees as well.

Again, not being discussed.

Because someone doesn't have a degree or aren't capable of going to college, they're now trash? That's a very narrow (and sad) view of people. A couple of additional comments:

1. I assume you mean by companies "shifting their burden" that you mean that they'll raise the prices of products if forced to pay decent wages. We have two choices -- the companies can raise prices or the government will raise taxes to support these people because they can't support themselves. Which do you prefer? Taxes aren't optional but purchasing a company's products is optional.

2. What people are missing is that manufacturing just doesn't employ "human trash" (to use your words). Each plant has dozens, if not hundreds, of white collar professionals -- supervisors, managers, engineers, etc. We're costing them jobs too.

So you're OK with shipping manufacturing jobs over to China but not shipping engineering and science jobs? Is that correct?

Beautiful!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Looks like GE is doing all they can to make their global position stronger, they just bought Alstom.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-23/ge-clears-last-french-hurdle-to-clinch-alstom-deal.html

 

[realibrad]

You're missing the problem. Companies always had that choice, but for the first two hundred years we also had tariffs and import duties in place that partially protected the American worker. (Or if you prefer, protected the government from the loss of taxes the worker would have paid.) Now we do not have that protection for either. Nor do we have a technological edge; we gave that away when Clinton removed all the technology transfer bans. The only thing left is a race to the bottom, our work ethic, innovation and smarts against the other guys'. But we're competing with third world nations, some with almost no regulatory burden, and famously in China with a nation whose currency is artificially pegged to our own to guarantee their pricing advantage. Many Americans still have great work ethics, and we still have a culture of innovation, but guess what? We're competing with some of the historically smartest, most innovative nations around. China and India ruled great chunks of the world at times, and it's not because they were stupid, hide bound and lazy. And personally, I don't want to directly compete with the guy who thinks thirty square meters and rice three times a day is a pretty sweet deal, 'cause even if I win, I'll lose.


Amen, brother, and damned well said.

If the argument is self preservation, the globalization is a side effect of this. A person in the 3rd world gets zero benefit when tariffs stopped trade. The 3rd world person says, I would be glad to work for a company that wants to pay me 11 cents vs the 6 I was making. So, they offer up their services. If your argument is that we should stop this, then I disagree. I wont go into the morality of improving the poor, as its self preservation at the core of the argument, so the poor do not matter here in any way.

So, there are 2 questions to answer. First, is there a way to stop the outsourcing the jobs that would leave under globalization that does not cost more than it saves? 2nd is does out sourcing have a net negative in the first place.

Tariffs always have a negative effect. If the us implements a tariff on something, you can be damn sure that other countries will institute a tariff of their own to try and off set. Or, they may do what China does and try to push down the value of their money. There is also the fact that if country X does not buy a good, then country Y will be more than happy to. So even if the US stopped buying a bunch of crap from China, another country would be willing to. I dont see any evidence that a tariff will help secure American jobs for very long, because the rest of the world will go on trading. A tariff will just end up hurting both countries far more than it helps.

So, in my opinion, when I look at the data, tariffs have a net negative for the economy and its people. And when you look at globalization, its the least costly because other countries acting in their self interest will be willing to compete by offering lower wages. This has gone on all through out history. When the English and French were fighting and would not trade with each other, they came to the far more open Colonial markets. Its what built this country in the first place.

 

[realibrad]

Do you really understand the WTO and what it entails? Or have you been too busy listening to Jethro Tull's "Thick As a Brick" all these years.

Seriously, start here:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=colonization+wto

If you still don't get it, you likely never will. After a while, self-preservation moves on without us.

What I am arguing for is Free trade. I dont believe the WTO has anything to actually do with that. The WTO is mainly a tool of private interests at the expense of others.

I am for Free Trade, and not "Free Trade".

BTW, you are still for globalization if you believe people should be acting in their self interests. If you dont believe, so, then help me understand because it sure seems like cognitive dissonance to me.

 

[sunzt]

LoL at people who think China is more free market than the US. China has a command economy where the State can own companies and directly intervene in industries with an iron fist of Mao. They have sovereign wealth investments, have been implementing CAPS on greenhouse gas emissions, and implementing cap a trade schemes in some cities.

 

[werepossum]

The average American student is still behind the average German, Japanese, Finnish, etc student in mathematics and science, and the gap isn't narrowing. Not *everyone* can be an engineer, but they certainly have better job security than those that are unskilled. A cursory look at the percentage of Asians in our country vs those in college, particularly in STEM fields, makes it obvious that culture can compensate for average disposition (unless we only get the super-smart ones, which admittedly some argument could be made for since it's not going to be the poor farmers that immigrate here).

"Stop having families", maybe not, but it's not the children of doctors and engineers usually popping them out manically. As long as people believe it's acceptable for human trash to use their citizenship as an excuse for breeding and consuming, said human trash will continue to do those things. Companies are only going to shift the burden to the working consumers. Encouragement of abortion, widespread birth control, and strict penalties for delinquent children would be a start.

I don't have any argument regarding manipulation of currency or unbalanced trade agreements. My main problem lies with the op and subsequent posts by him and others that seem to think any instance of China surpassing us is an act of aggression or socioeconomic war. Having clothing company X move jobs to countries where they can pay child laborers a dime a day isn't even remotely comparable to educated Chinese taking our science and engineering jobs right out from under our smug faces.

Human trash? WTF dude? If they have American citizenship, they are Americans, period, and while I'm not wild about people having children they can't feed I damn sure prefer that to the government stepping in to decide who can breed.

Takes a pretty sick fuck to feel it's okay for us to export our jobs to Red China as long as we can adopt their social policies. Might want to give this issue some more thought.

Beautiful!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Seconded.

Looks like GE is doing all they can to make their global position stronger, they just bought Alstom.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-23/ge-clears-last-french-hurdle-to-clinch-alstom-deal.html

Crap, there go those jobs.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Human trash? WTF dude? If they have American citizenship, they are Americans, period, and while I'm not wild about people having children they can't feed I damn sure prefer that to the government stepping in to decide who can breed.

I dunno, if you're on aid, I think that there should be hefty penalties if you have kids (if you have kids before aid, fine. If you get preggers/become a dad while on aid, the kid is puut up for adoption and you take a hit on your aid. If it happens again, your tubes are tied or your aid is gone.)

The victims here are the kids who grow up malnourished.

 

[werepossum]

If the argument is self preservation, the globalization is a side effect of this. A person in the 3rd world gets zero benefit when tariffs stopped trade. The 3rd world person says, I would be glad to work for a company that wants to pay me 11 cents vs the 6 I was making. So, they offer up their services. If your argument is that we should stop this, then I disagree. I wont go into the morality of improving the poor, as its self preservation at the core of the argument, so the poor do not matter here in any way.

So, there are 2 questions to answer. First, is there a way to stop the outsourcing the jobs that would leave under globalization that does not cost more than it saves? 2nd is does out sourcing have a net negative in the first place.

Tariffs always have a negative effect. If the us implements a tariff on something, you can be damn sure that other countries will institute a tariff of their own to try and off set. Or, they may do what China does and try to push down the value of their money. There is also the fact that if country X does not buy a good, then country Y will be more than happy to. So even if the US stopped buying a bunch of crap from China, another country would be willing to. I dont see any evidence that a tariff will help secure American jobs for very long, because the rest of the world will go on trading. A tariff will just end up hurting both countries far more than it helps.

So, in my opinion, when I look at the data, tariffs have a net negative for the economy and its people. And when you look at globalization, its the least costly because other countries acting in their self interest will be willing to compete by offering lower wages. This has gone on all through out history. When the English and French were fighting and would not trade with each other, they came to the far more open Colonial markets. Its what built this country in the first place.

For the first part, I don't think it's our responsibility to help the poor in third world nations at our own expense. If however that was my intention, then I would help by helping them produce the goods they want and need, not the goods that I want and need.

For your questions, I think ANY solution that stops the outsourcing costs less than it saves. Look at our trade deficit; we're hemorrhaging money every single month. Worse, we're increasingly (and artificially) expanding the gap between rich and poor by artificially lowering the value of labor, both by unrestrained immigration and by outsourcing. That might not have as much of an apparent cost - although the trade deficit is one cost of making the rich richer - so much as introducing risk. Wealth is relative, and the larger the numbers of relatively poor people, and the larger that perceived gap, the more risk of revolution. That can be bloody, but it can also be a civil slide into Marxism. Either way we lose as a society.

For the second question, yes, tariffs have a negative effect, but also positive effects. Import tariffs protect the value of labor, and in a society valuing Western secular values, that's a very important thing because it directly protects the middle class. The poor are largely going to vote for whomever credibly promises them the most loot because they are poor; their needs tend to over-weigh their principles. If one cannot be assured of having enough food for the kids, then foreign policy or fiscal policy or gay marriage must needs take a distant back seat to getting that food, period. This is not good, even if it's cheap in the short run.

 

[werepossum]

I dunno, if you're on aid, I think that there should be hefty penalties if you have kids (if you have kids before aid, fine. If you get preggers/become a dad while on aid, the kid is puut up for adoption and you take a hit on your aid. If it happens again, your tubes are tied or your aid is gone.)

The victims here are the kids who grow up malnourished.

While punishing irresponsible parents appeals to me viscerally, I don't see practically how we can do that without inuring the children or empowering government to decide the proper number of children for each individual to have. As we've seen in these forums, should government get that power I suspect we'll see a lot more welfare children and a lot fewer bankers' children.